Kate: Hello and welcome to Called to Queer. We’re back for part two of Souksavanh’s story.
Souksavanh: So I was thinking, so I think, right, like my relationship with the LDS church is very, very interesting. And of course it’s okay for it to be interesting and it’s okay for people to love the church. It’s okay for people to hate the church.
It’s okay for people to feel whatever about the church, right? Because I think there’s justifications as to why that happens. There is, there’s reasons to it, and at the same time, I always find myself still somewhat gravitating toward it. So I, I’ve experienced this when I went to Chicago.
So I went to Chicago recently and my, as I mentioned, my grandpa was relocated there, Right? And there was moments in [00:01:00] time when me and my cousin were like there and it was quiet, and we just looked at each other and we’re like, Do you feel, do you feel that? And we’re like, Yeah, I feel him. Like, I feel him in this space here.
And like, or I feel like this place is familiar, right? I feel like there’s a connection to Chicago and this is my first time being in Chicago. Why is that? Right? And there’s a reason as to why that is. It’s because our grandpa was there and there, he had a connection there. And I, I truly believe there’s this connection that we create not only from our own experience, from our family’s experience as well, right?
Especially people who have experienced trauma, um, in a particular way. And so I think that same thing is happening with the church. You know, when I, when I go into, um, a church building, it feels familiar. It feels [00:02:00] like I can be safe in that space. And sometimes, and sometimes I feel like I can’t, depending on how big the crowd is or, um, who is in that space, right?
And so it’s been very, very interesting for me to navigate. Um, and I’m just hoping that the future generation of folks begin to process and talk about it. And I think this is kind of the start of a really great conversation, right? The, I don’t know, have you all talked about the Indian Placement program before?
So this is very, this would be really good to have folks like, think about or process or even like look into and I, and I think there are a lot of Native people who are descendants of survivors of this program, of this, of this, um, [00:03:00] policy, right? And so I think it, it’s really interesting in a unique experience, um, not justifying what was done, um, because I think it was very violent and I think there needs to be something to be done, whether that is the church teach it, or, which I don’t think is gonna happen, or the, or folks beginning to process what had happened and to Indigenous people, because I do still think there is a set relationship that is happening that this conversation might actually help.
Is that a lot of folks, there is still this weird tension or relationship between Indigenous people and what like white LDS people, right? Um, [00:04:00] there’s this sense of fascination toward Indigenous identity. There’s this sense of, uh, what’s the word? Like imagining or fetishization in terms of like, as a Native person, you have a, uh, and I’ve heard this from folks.
I’m not just like making it up. You have a better sense of connection to Heavenly Father through dreams or through, um, like right. The, the continue this Native trope of spirituality that is actually made up, um, by LDS people to believe that this is how Native people continue to live our life in teepees and continue to live, which, um, is very interesting of like being the spiritual, being always being a [00:05:00] medicine person, um, and having that always connection of like, if I’m sleeping, I have a dream.
Yes, we do believe like dreams have meanings. Um, but it’s really interesting to hear by white people that like, Oh yeah, Native people have a better sense of connection to, to Heavenly Father through dreams or they, he communicates to you through dreams better than us white people or . And I’ve heard that before.
It’s really interesting. Um, and so I, I think if we begin to have these conversations without having to feel guilt and just listen, right, just know that this is a true experience that Native people have gone through with the church and to also feel okay with people who have endured this program survivor or descendants of survivors who endured this program [00:06:00] to feel some type of way about the church, right?
I think when we have these conversations, Practicing members of the church now, they’re like, well, it’s so much better now. Like, um, there’s a, there’s a new path or there’s a new way. Uh, if you come back, things have changed, et cetera. I think it’s okay for you to listen, acknowledge still be friends, if that’s your friend with that person, and not have the church interfere with that relationship. Right. Um, and understand that there is trauma and you can’t heal it by going back to the trauma.
It is a lot of work. It is a lot of healing. Um, I don’t have all the answers, I don’t think other people. Uh, and I, and I think that’s the, another great aspect of this too is like [00:07:00] something for listeners, something for practicing LDS folks who want to change or, or continue to change the world. Um, I think trying to, one, listen to Indigenous people’s experiences through who have gone through this program, but also don’t put the work back onto Indigenous people to help you feel better.
Right. Um, to, to put all the work without compensation, especially, uh, put into the work of what can we do, what are the next steps for us to heal, um, as both church members and LDS or as a Indigenous people, right? Um, and of course, right, there’s that intersection between, there’s people who are both. Um, I don’t want it to ever be this taxing labor that is actually put back onto Indigenous people [00:08:00] who have endured this program again.
You know? Um, that’s like, well, you solved the problem cuz I don’t know how to fix it. you tell us what we need to do. And it’s like, well first learn about what you have, what has been done by the church and maybe you think about what can be done and propose it to us . Right? And so there’s a different ways of doing things instead of like, Well we know that we did this violence. What can I do to heal this violence? Right there? There should be types of, uh, if people have listened to sibling rivalry, uh, by Bob the Drag Queen and Monet X Change, I love them. They’re two drag queens who both have one drag race. Um, very raunchy, but very insightful in a, in a lot of ways.
Um, but Bob talks about there’s a difference between apologies and atonement. Apologies is like [00:09:00] you accidentally, I put this in an air quote, accidentally push someone over and they fall and script the knee, and you’re like, Oh, I’m sorry. Their knee still scraped. Right. What can you do to aone, bring them a bandaid, bring them something to like, help heal that wound?
Um, of course you can’t heal it right away, and that’s the point, right? You can’t heal trauma right away. But there’s things that you can do to help. You can, as I mentioned, give them the aspo in or give them, um, a bandaid, see what they need. Um, but you initially start by giving something as well. Instead of like them telling you, like you don’t just sit there with their knee bleeding and be like, What do I need to get you?
You automatically should know I need to get a bandaid, right? And so that’s a good example as to like how we move forward. From this, right? How do we begin to move [00:10:00] forward? So you see the harm or now you’re listening to the harm of the Indian Placement Program. Um, now what are the next steps? Right? And I think that’s thing about that concept of living in a limitless world.
Is that right? There’s nothing off the tables, actually. We can do whatever we want to help heal each other. Yeah.
Kate: I, I think that as you’re talking about healing, um, it’s interesting. I did want to mention that my family is, has a history in this program. My grandparents were quote unquote foster parents, and I found out recently, recently, very recently, that as a child you were that these, that you are wondering whether these children had more work or not um, [00:11:00] I found out that I was left with a 16 year old, um, foster family member as a baby. And that person is no longer in our lives. Like
Yes. So, um, it’s interesting to learn about my own experience with this. Like I have an experience with the Indian Placement Program of a person who, um, I don’t, I don’t have a lot of memories for my childhood, but I imagine it was probably an, an issue to have this person not be there anymore. Um, and to not be part of the, this family in a way that we talked about, and it made sense from a settler colonial perspective. I understood the ni nuclear family. And so we talk about this person who came in. We actually, my family had two [00:12:00] foster kids. And, and my grandma has a relationship with this, um, person.
But, um, I, I don’t. And I think it’s interesting to have this conversation with you. It’s interesting to be in this space right now and to say, this is what’s happened.
Um, and I, I feel like I can acknowledge that that is traumatic and horrible and to hear you’re talking about your mom and the bus, I th i, I, you kind of, you kind of went through that rather quickly. And for me it was very, very powerful to say. They got on a bus as siblings, they’re driven to Provo and gone through.
I think that this is like a very fascinating process that you’re talking about going from room to room, being baptized and [00:13:00] then being separated without knowing that you’re going to be separated. This, to me, that was, that was a really emotional thing to hear and for you to talk about because these are sorts of processes we see in lots of eugenics type movements of this separation this transportation separation that feels a 10 year
Souksavanh: Yeah. And they did younger. Mm-hmm.
Kate: I, I feel emotional about that. Like I can’t imagine being there with your siblings and then just going home with somebody
Souksavanh: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Kate: And I hope that listeners, when they heard that story, recognize how, how traumatic that that was.
Souksavanh: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I, I, I think there’s a lot of [00:14:00] very interesting, because like if you think 10 is young, which it is very young, Right? Um, kids started in this program at kindergarten, by the way. So the whole purpose was to do public school off the reservation. And, and so that’s why they did it in like Provo Unified School District or whatever it’s called now.
Um, and that’s really interesting because I’m like, how much better is the Provo education than other places? Right. Um, so it’s, it was really interesting. So they, so they would do the program for like K through 12 basically. And so imagine my mom was 10, but, and I think, what grade is that? Like fifth
Colette: probably.
Souksavanh: maybe. [00:15:00] Uh, um, and so there’s younger people who are doing that. There’s, and so I can’t even imagine being what, five, four and then being taken. That’s, that is traumatic. Um, and I think you bring up this really great point too, because I think there might be listeners, or there could be listeners, right, who might have that same relationship as of like knowing someone who was a foster parent, um, at that time.
Um, and what does that mean? Does that mean that it is an experience or does that mean that it’s a relationship that we now have to each other, right? And in this way, that’s like, that’s like we’ve both have seen or now have heard both sides of kind of [00:16:00] the experience process or the, the, the Indian Placement Program.
And now what do we do now, uh, with this knowledge? Like what do we continue to strive for, right? We want people to know this and we don’t want anyone to ever feel in their guilt, right? To feel that, Oh, I have bad ancestors, or I have bad, uh, relatives who took these Native children and put them in foster care and was their foster family.
No, we want people to know that this was a true history and there’s multiple sides to a lot of things, right? We don’t live in this binary world, as I mentioned. So what does it mean to listen to your own family’s accounts of those stories? And now listening to other people’s accounts of those stories right there, as I mentioned, there were people who loved the program, who learned a lot from the [00:17:00] program.
There’s a lot of people who experienced abuse in the program, and so there’s, there’s so many different types of relationships, and I think it’s important for us to be mindful and know about these types. Um, and that allows us to move forward, not us dwelling on what is my relationship was good or my, um, my family was good to the Lamanites end quotes. I put that quotes . Uh, right. And so I think it’s like, I think the next step is what do we do? What do we do now? And I think that is for members now to acknowledge, right? As I mentioned that I give that great analogy or example of like, what, what to do. So [00:18:00] now you see the, the wound bleeding. What, what are the next steps? What’s your bandaid? What’s your knee aspo? What, what’s those next steps? And then after that, that’s when we come together and help each other, right? Um, and so it’s very interesting and a unique spot to be in because you would think that this happened in the 18 hundreds or early 90 19, uh, in the early 19 hundreds, right?
No, this happened what, less than 20 years ago, what? 30 years ago now. Um, the last person graduated less than about 22 years ago. And so, I think, I believe this program started in 1956. Maybe that’s why I got my dates mixed up with the relocation act because they were kind of starting at the same time. Right.
Kate: I think I think it started earlier. I think it started in 47.
Souksavanh: Oh, did it?
Kate: Yeah. it started in [00:19:00] 47. From, From what I’ve read anyway. You’re the expert. But like there, it? was a mini program at the beginning and it developed more and more. And I think by 56 it was like very established.
Souksavanh: Mm Okay. And this, so this is a great great segue into what to do next. Of course, as I mentioned, there’s different things that we can do, but I think a really great starting point now is understand and protect ICWA which is the Indian Child Welfare Act that I mentioned that gave the exempt to the LDS church for this program.
Right. It was existing Native homes in 1978. There’s already people in the program. They weren’t in existing homes and in existing Indigenous homes cuz they were in that foster care. So they were exempt so they could finish the [00:20:00] program. So that law is actually going up to the Supreme Court if folks, um, are, are not aware. Um, and it is actually gonna be contested this month. It was moved?
Kate: November
Souksavanh: Oh, was it
Kate: So it might be after the, it might be after this, um, podcast airs. I just looked it up today. it’s
Souksavanh: Yeah. Yeah. So for folks who are unaware, the Indian Child Welfare Well Welfare Act basically protects Indigenous children from having this happen again, It’s, going up to the Supreme Court to, um, basically say if they need it or not anymore. And the reason why is because what happens is now, because there’s existing Native homes, I put that in in air quotes. Uh, Native children, if they get put [00:21:00] into, uh, if they want to get adopted, it actually, they have to actually go through the tribe now. So, for example, if someone is in foster care, I believe they can be in a type of foster care, but it can’t be for too long. And then the tribe ha that gets to determine what happens.
Um, and so basically, The tribe will adopt them back. Um, which is the proper way , I, I, I believe, um, to bring back community members. But there’s a case that happened recently, um, where a Native person was in foster care. I don’t think they knew that they were Native and then when they, this family, a white family wanted to adopt this Native child, um, the, I believe the social worker was like, It, it’s not gonna be an easy process because we actually have to go through the tribe because we just [00:22:00] found out that this person is Native.
And so they went through the tribe and the tribe said, We want, we didn’t know that this child was in foster care. We want them back. And so that child came back to the tribe and that family is now arguing that they are being discriminated against because they’re white and not able to adopt this Native child.
And so this started this battle , and now it has moved all the way up to the Supreme Court. And it is, I think Deb Holland is one of the people who is who, if people don’t know, she’s our new, uh, Secretary of Interior, the first Indigenous person, Indigenous woman, actually to hold that position and I believe Indigenous person, uh, to ever hold that position.
Uh, which actually [00:23:00] looks o and oversees the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is our relationship with the federal government as Native people. And so she is basically arguing that we need to keep it, we need to keep this, this act in place. And so now we don’t know where it’s gonna fall. And a lot of Native people are afraid, um, and want people to be aware because this can happen again.
And I think we need to make an A and hopefully allow folks to, to be aware of this because it is important, right? It is important because we don’t want history to repeat itself cuz it can if this, if it gets thrown out. Um,
Kate: Yeah.
Souksavanh: and so I just wanted to bring that up because I think there’s so many connections to it, right? There’s so many connections. And now that today,
Kate: thank you for bringing That up. If you don’t know the history, [00:24:00] if you don’t know that we’ve participated in this as Mormons, then you don’t know the impact and the devastation that this has.
Like your story about who you are and where your mom ends up and, and what she believes and how she feels. All of those things that are shaped because she was taken. If you don’t know all of that stuff, you, you might not. An opinion about the Indian Child Welfare Welfare Act, but now at least knowing, right, Like we have, we, we talk about this in terms of emotions. Once you know your emotion, once you can name your emotion, it has less power. Once I think that, that, that can apply to history as well.
Once we know this history, we can better move forward and, [00:25:00] and work through this. Because since we’ve erased this history, and I would say that the Mormon Church has erased this history, um, that the families that this, that, that participated in this program have erased this history. This history is, is being erase.
That if we aren’t active in, in rejuvenating that history as Mormons, then we don’t see the damage that we’ve done for this exact thing that can take place next month. Sorry, that’s everything that you just said. Just restated it. But I just wanna reaffirm exactly what you’re, what you’re talking about. Cause how could you not think
Souksavanh: Right. Right. And it’s so, it’s so interesting because I bring into the spaces like my queerness, my two-spirit spiritness, my transness, my [00:26:00] brownness, my indigeneity, right? All these multiracial reality, right? All of these things into these spaces that are usually not welcomed in a lot of ways. And of course, I’ve seen people, um, and it’s really interesting because I have argued and have experienced racism from the church.
Um, and when it’s brought up, they’re like, Oh, we have a brown per member. We have a Black member. Okay? And it’s still racist, right? There’s still racism that is being done. Um, and I think the same goes to queerness too, right? There’s like, there is rhetoric that is being done, um, being said. In the church in particular that is [00:27:00] harmful to brown, Black queer, and trans people.
Um, and in a way that is unsafe and people are like, I mean, we accept it. You just can’t act on it. Right? Um, and that’s still violent. That’s still violent. It’s not fair for you to have your experience with your hetero partner, um, and not other people to experience joy in those ways either, you know? Um, and then I think that often gets used onto reflecting about these types of conversations is looking at your own ward or even looking at your own, um, stake, right?
As like, do I see people who are having these conversations in these spaces [00:28:00] and why not? And why do I if I do, right? Um, I oftentimes see it easier for cis hu men of color to somewhat find their spot in the church Then, Queer people then, um, brown and Black women in particular ways, um, because it, there’s this masculinity that they can play, right?
There’s this masculinity that the church favors actually, uh, in a particular way that is actually kind of toxic . Um,
Kate: Absolutely.
Souksavanh: that’s something that I’m afraid for my nephews. That’s what I’m really, really afraid, is that they will get taught these things that [00:29:00] is already a societal thing, right? But it, I feel like it gets emphasized a little more, um, to be very individual, to only care about yourself, , uh, even, which is ironic because the church teaches you to care about others, right? And let’s be real, um, patriarchy, et cetera, All intertwined with, with, um, some of the teachings. And it’s very, it’s really interesting. And I, that’s what I, one of the main things that I fear for my nieces and nephews is that I don’t want them to feel as though. They can’t express themselves or feel a certain way or love who they want to love and also be brown, Right?
Um, I just want them to feel safe in a space. And I think that they’re already doing that, which is cool, but I have to catch them [00:30:00] sometimes cuz they’re like, Boys do this and girls do this. Or like, What, who taught you that? Would you learn that from Oh, It, it is very interesting because like my nieces nephew are young.
Like they’re young. Young, right? And so I’m like, there’s no other spot where they’re learning this stuff because what they watch on TV is pretty, pretty litty. Like, they watch gamers on YouTube, um, and then sometimes they’re like, Oh, I can’t do this because that’s a girl thing, or I can’t do this because it’s a boy thing.
I’m like, What? Who? Who taught you that? And I feel like it’s coming from the church , you know, like it comes from somewhere and something that I’m like, I know for a fact it came from the church. Like someone’s talking, someone is saying stuff to my niece. She wasn’t in school, she was staying at home.
Right. Um, and so people were like watching her. And my [00:31:00] brother is Brown. Um, And I think he might be a little, a little darker than me, but my sis, my niece always draws him as a Black man and she made a Minecraft character and he is a Black man. When she has conversations with him, she’s like, You’re so much darker than all of us.
And I’m like, Where are you learning this from? Because you’re not watching YouTube videos that say like that are saying that stuff. And you only ever are with family or you’re at church, Where is it coming? It has to be coming from somewhere over there and I don’t like it. Um, and so it was very impactful.
So I always have to try to catch my nieces and nephews in how they talk cuz I’m like, Oh, they’re learning this from somewhere and I can’t quite pin it and I don’t want to always put the blame on the church. And at the [00:32:00] same time, there’s teachings that have been taught intentional or not that do this violence. Right. And I’m sure you probably have seen it too.
Kate: I I think there’s, there’s something interesting about that we haven’t mentioned that this placement program, I looked it up, by the way, officially, it starts in 54. The first person was 47.
Souksavanh: Oh, okay.
Kate: like an informal, informal
Souksavanh: of like the relocation act that was like, it started officially
Kate: exactly, Exactly. Which is 24 years. 24 years is a long time. 24 years before the priesthood and temple ban, uh, is, is lifted or whatever.
This is developed in a very racialized setting. And the, we have to also be thinking about in the back of our minds, the, [00:33:00] the ways that race played into the church in terms of blood, right? Like, um, the church has this belief about blood, um, and how, and what we’re thinking about quote, using quotation mark, Lamanites something
Souksavanh: Mm-hmm.
Kate: is very weird when it simultaneously, there’s this thing that’s happening that is if you have, quote, unquote a drop of African blood, then you can’t be, you can’t go to the temple. So these two things are happening simultaneously, and it’s very racialized rhetoric and conversation taking place that when Spencer w Kimble is saying these things, People becoming more white.
What does that actually mean in terms of policy and things for, for the church going forward? and all of that, I think plays into what is going on with [00:34:00] your nibbling. That, that that doesn’t just go away, that festers and it keeps coming out in
Souksavanh: Mm-hmm. and um, it, Right today in 2020, it sounds ridiculous that right? You would think if you convert and you do all this, that you’re just turned white. That was that actual belief. Like members, some of them truly believe that if people did this program, Indigenous people, Lamanites, air quotes, did this program, they would turn white when they graduate.
Like that was a solid belief. Isn’t that wild? But today, we wouldn’t think it. Back then they were like, Yeah, I get it. It makes sense. Um,
Kate: Yeah.
Souksavanh: and then sometimes it’s interpreted that like, right, they [00:35:00] will be white in the celestial kingdom, which I’m like, regardless, you wanted as white, you know, like either one.
And so people have used that argument where was like, no, it was like the Celestial Kingdom. And I’m like, Either way, you wanted us white, You didn’t want us Brown. And that’s racist,
Kate: Whether it’s, whether, whether it’s cultural genocide here or cultural genocide, there is still a genocide and I think that queer people can relate to that. This idea that on the, in the next life we’re going to be
Souksavanh: Right. It’s so interesting and it’s like, why would you want to be? Why, Right. Why would you want to be straight cis in this celestial kingdom if you found love in this world? Why would I want to be Brown if I love my culture in this world? Right. It, it doesn’t make sense. The reasoning doesn’t make any sense.
Um, but yeah, And so I [00:36:00] thought that was very, very, interesting. Um, and something that I really like. It’s just very cringy, right? Like, I, I feel like today people wouldn’t just be like Lamanite, Right? I, I’m just still processing. I, I think I’m just like. Wow, people really called Native people Lamanite. That’s fucked up.
Colette: and I think, it still happens. Like, I, think we wanna believe this is in the past, but I, I have heard it still happening in the very, very recent past, and this is what happens. I think, as Kate said earlier, when the church doesn’t denounce it’s history and things that they’ve said that was wrong, and we end up with not learning and not hearing about these things as people are dealing with the trauma that they’ve cause.
Souksavanh: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I [00:37:00] think, I think I mentioned this, but I was telling my sister-in-law who, um, I believe she was born and raised in the church my whole life. I, I, I’ve known her since I was in sixth grade. Um, and she was LDS then too, which she was in high school. And so even before that, when I was in fourth grade, that’s when they got together, my brother and my sister-in-law.
Um, and she was, she was LDS then and has been since, but I don’t know if she was, um, converted or she was, um, um, born and raised in it, but she, I was telling her about it recently, like literally probably a year ago, maybe less than a year ago, before I came to Australia. And it’s nice because me and her have good conversations about, um, [00:38:00] just about my work and about queerness.
About transness. About Brownness, right. Et cetera, indigeneity. And she’s often like, If I didn’t have Brown kids, I don’t think I would have to worry, you know, like I don’t, I would get to l position myself in a way that is very, Why does it matter? Why do I care? And she’s like, and that’s the sad part, is that for white people, we have to either know someone or have someone connected to you, like children to finally care.
And she’s like, And that’s not how, and she was like, And that is really sad because I see a lot of people who have this view and think that she was like, I’ve learned so much from my kids because they’re Brown and multiracial. [00:39:00] and um, and so she’s like, I and I’m queer so she’s like, I’m just more aware of the world now cuz I’m so introduced to so much in the world now. Um, and that it’s not okay for me to just like sit back and not advocate, you know, Because I have people who I care about and love that this affects, that these conversations affect. Right. And so I can’t just sit there anymore. But she’s like, If I didn’t know you all though, I wouldn’t have to care. I get to live in that privilege. Right.
Colette: for sure, and I think that’s why talking about all these intersections is so important because you can ignore when you do have privilege, and we see that in every marginalized population. A lot of people don’t care about queer individuals until someone they love comes out to them. And so it makes total sense that your [00:40:00] sister-in-law didn’t really care or understand as much about the marginalization with different races and ethnicities until her children brought it to her attention.
So I, I so, so, so appreciate you taking the time to educate us and our listeners more about this particular intersection. I know there’s so much more we could talk about with all the intersections that you’re at, but I’ve appreciate the education on this piece for sure.
Souksavanh: Yeah. Thank you.
Kate: I do just wanna ask, um, and pivot a little bit away from the church .
Souksavanh: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate: we’ve touched, we’ve touched a lot on, on the church, but the queer community also has issues with, um, with this sort of thing. I don’t wanna say this is all just a, a Mormon thing and let’s blame Mormon stuff. We also, as queer people also need to understand that we also perpetuate this. And something I [00:41:00] learned from you as a non-binary person, I, identify as
Souksavanh: mm-hmm.
Kate: as a white person, which means something different than identifying as non-binary, not a white person. Can you talk a little bit
Souksavanh: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, so this is a really good conversation that I, I’ve had with a lot of folks and a lot of like queer, trans, non-binary folks and two spirit folks, is that first I wanna set up, and this is my academic side coming out. I’m very, I, I feel like I’m very like, easy to talk to and I try not to do like all this academic spiel.
Um, but this I think will be helpful in us understanding some slight differences between language, because I think a lot of people in particular [00:42:00] use, uh, terminology that might not be what they actually mean. For example, when folks, So in my dissertation I write about queer spaces and how queer spaces can actually be healing and safe from violence.
And I’ve gotten a lot of critique that’s like, but some queer spaces can be violent though, like to other intersections of your identity, right? And I’m arguing that, that then that’s not a queer space, actually, it’s not a queer space. You can name it as a queer space, but it’s not a queer space. Right?
There’s two different things at place going on, and a great example of understanding the difference between queer and L G B, um, um, is that, or gay and lesbian for example. Let’s use that. [00:43:00] The difference between queer and gay lesbian is I, I highly recommend, uh, Normal Life by Dean Spade, who is a trans scholar.
I believe he’s a lawyer. Um, but he wrote this book called Normal Life and he talks about gay and lesbian is very, and and he’s white as well. He said that it’s very much so geared toward assimilating into whiteness. And what he means by that is that there’s a limitation to the advocacy work and the, um, the end goal, right, of what it means to be queer in this world.
He, he, he says that a great example is that gay and lesbian people advocate for same sex marriage. Yes, it’s a great thing, and he even marks it as a great thing. But where are they at [00:44:00] now? Where are they at now? They’re happy and they’re in their relationships and they’re, they’re, they’re safe in those types of relationships being married.
Right? Queerness, on the other hand that they argue is that, and more it’s advocating for, um, trans healthcare. It’s advocating for, um, homes for queer and trans and non-binary folks. It’s advocating for so much more, right? That we’re so limited to within gay lesbian. And so that’s what I mean by when I often use queer is that space.
And that’s a great space to be in. And that’s a great space of, of creating these intersections that there are, um, disabled queer folk, queer and trans folks. There are, um, queer and trans folks of color, right? So there’s so much in that and there’s so much limited within [00:45:00] gay lesbian. And I try to stay away from it, um, because I’ve often seen violence within those communities being perpetuated because they can oftentimes easily, um, assimilate into, or not assimilate, conform to white culture or, uh, patriarchal culture in a lot of ways.
Um, and as like, so that’s a great start of understanding. Queerness in, in, in LGBTQ. But I also want to bring in two-spirit. And so I mentioned that I identify as Two-spirit, or I am two-Spirit. Um, uh, fun fact on, um, we all know what TERFs are, the trans exclusionary, radical feminist.
Kate: Yeah, but maybe we want to explain for some
Souksavanh: Okay? So TERFs um, are, [00:46:00] uh, deemed feminist. I put that in air quotes, who exclude transness from conversations of feminism and womanhood and et cetera, right? So, um, an example, uh, I would name drop her JK Rowling. She’s a turf and she, yes, the person who wrote Harry Potter, uh, is a TERF. And um, she is very much so like you, like if you are a trans woman, you’re still a man.
Basically, that’s what, that’s what the whole rhetoric behind TERFs are, is that cis women’s rights are being impacted if we also include trans women into those conversations, which isn’t true. Um, But anyway, so there’s a big movement [00:47:00] in Australia that I’m seeing that steps away from using the term identify.
So instead of I identify as this, I am this, because it has been used a lot by TERFs to be like, you identify as that, but you’re still not that, right? You identify as a trans person, but you’re still a man, right? Um, and so, and so, it was really, it’s been interesting to, to have those conversations. So I am two-Spirit and I am queer.
Um, and so I use those all intersect, uh, intersected. And two-Spirit is actually a newer term, as I mentioned, branched out from the nineties during the, um, American Indian movement in the sixties, seventies, that really formed this queerness. And then as we know in the sixties was the start [00:48:00] of the gay rights movement right into the seventies.
Um, and oftentimes Indigenous people were not included in those conversations, and there’s this bottle of queerness. So they weren’t, we weren’t feeling okay in Indigenous spaces because of the queerness. We weren’t feeling okay in gay spaces because it was anti indigenous. And so they were like, We need a new term because we’ve always had this term, LGBTQ, LGBTQ is a colonial naming of, of us gender, sex, and sexuality, right?
And so we’ve always had that in our community. So Two-Spirit actually is an umbrella term of queer, but only for Indigenous people. And it recognizes that we have always had diverse gender, sex, and sexuality in our communities before. And so, um, [00:49:00] and, and so it’s a unique experience compared to, to, um, I wouldn’t say it’s like far or vastly different, but there’s intersections between, uh, trans, queer, trans and non-binary people of color that a lot of, um, white, queer, trans, and non-binary people.
Um, Navigate the world. Right? Um, and that’s what that is particularly, particularly stating is that it is a different experience because there’s, there’s things that we draw on of cultural reference of things before colonial reference or colonization of settler contact in the United States. That validates [00:50:00] our experience, which is true for white folks as well.
But then there’s that also framing that whiteness navigates the world that privileges whiteness. Um, that also also aims and, and, and I’ve also seen it too, where like where, um, some white, uh, queer, trans, non-binary folks uphold patriarchy, um, are uphold masculinity and it’s very interesting and harmful.
Right? Um, but I think having conversations about it and of course not saying like, and it, and it’s not a, a conversation that’s like, oh, um, Queer, trans, non-binary people and [00:51:00] two-spirit people of color are more oppressed than queer, trans, non-binary white people. It’s saying that these two are two different experiences based on our color, based on our race.
Right? It’s a unique experience when we navigate the system of settler colonialism that we begin to understand where we’re having conversations with each other and not being like, Oh, I’m more oppressed or, Or I have been impacted more by this. Right? It’s how do we begin to navigate these systems of violence cuz it’s been done to both of us, and also there’s unique violences that is being done as well. I hope that answers the question.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s really fascinating and I think it’s actually. I appreciate you going through that whole history, especially with queer, because I think that this has been, that that is useful [00:52:00] for me to even understand my own experience as, as a white person, like I have a, a white history with, with, um, gender.
That, that it is different than somebody who’s going to have a different experience with, with, gender, um, previous to colonialism. I just really think you’re, you’re an incredible human, first of all, an incredible scholar and I, I feel very grateful that you are, you’re willing to do this and also that we get, be friends. I just really like being
Souksavanh: Yes, of course.
Kate: and sharing ideas and things like, um, you’ve, you’ve really changed the way that I think about a lot of stuff and really impacted the way that I think about a lot of stuff and so I appreciate
Souksavanh: Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me or even thinking or
considering me for the podcast as well. Um, I really enjoyed my time with you all and like just sharing these thoughts and idea in a safe [00:53:00] space and being able to process some of the trauma that my family has endured and continuing to process it. Right. Um, so this is a great platform to even have those conversations cuz I think we’ve been silenced for so long about it that it’s now like we should have conversations, We should talk about it, we should bring it.
Colette: Absolutely. We just so appreciate it and it’s kind of that tricky place that sometimes I feel like we’re in. Um, In sharing stories and asking marginalized people to educate people about their marginalization, and I know this is a very tricky space for you in having the personal story and the academic and research.
And so thank you for taking this time and emotional energy and we would like to remind listeners, please don’t reach out and dump your white guilt on marginalized individuals, Go to [00:54:00] spaces that you need to process other white people. Do your research. Do that, but don’t go to marginalized people to dump your white trauma and guilt after hearing about this. So, but thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and educate
Souksavanh: Yeah,
Colette: Even though you are having to do that, emotional labor is something you shouldn’t have to do. So thank you for taking the time and energy to do that for us and our listeners.
Souksavanh: Yeah,
Thank you. And, uh, for folks who want to like, continue to follow, um, or keep up with some of the work that I’m doing, I often post a lot on my, on my Instagram, but it’s my full name. Um, and I believe we have a descriptor in, in this episode. Okay. It’ll be in the descriptor. It’s just my full name.
So unique, but it’s a good one. And I usually post a lot of my. Work there. A lot of upcoming things that I’m doing, [00:55:00] Um, articles that I’m publishing, and then of course some funny stuff that I do. So it’s integrated within my personal and my academic life. I don’t like to separate them because I think I want people to see queer, Indigenous people of color, um, thriving in academic spaces and also having fun and being people and being silly. And so I do that. And so I, that’s why I post on both, Both on one.
Kate: I love that. By the way, you’re so, so six fun. Just got back from, um, the US and, um, Disneyland and watching you like go through Disneyland. I thought that was gonna be your queer joy. I was for sure thinking that Disneyland was
Souksavanh: that was a queer joy too. I had so mu, so many queer joys. But on this trip, I were really reflected on like, uh, I have learned so much from queer and trans people about loving myself and loving other people. That was [00:56:00] such a queer, that that’s a good one. And then I, I think it just went by so fast. I feel like I was in Disneyland like a month ago, but I was there literally last week. But that was a fun one. That was a fun one.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a, it’s very informative following you, but also
Souksavanh: Yeah. Thank you.
Kate: Thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. If you’re liking these episodes, we’d love it. If you would, great interview, called to queer on the podcast player of your choice so that other people are more likely to find us. We’d also love it if you would share a podcast with a friend who could benefit from hearing these stories. If you want to contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.