Kate: Hello and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, gender queer intersex experiences. I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/he/they.
Colette: And I’m Colette. My pronouns are she/her.
Kate: Today we’re talking with Lin Flores. We’re so excited for this conversation, but we, before we jump into that, we wanna start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Colette, what brought you queer joy?
Colette: What brought me Queer Joy is the TV series on Amazon Prime, A League of Their Own. I’m a little behind on the uptake on that one. I watched it a few weeks ago with my girlfriend and my roommate and so much queer joy. Like, oh my gosh, such a good show. Everyone [00:01:00] queer or not needs to watch this.
Kate: for sure.
Colette: And then at my retreat this weekend, some of the ladies hadn’t watched it. And so I’m not one to watch TV shows again once I’ve seen them. Like I know some people have their comfort TV show that they always turn to whatever. I’m just like, I’ve seen it before. I wanna watch something else instead. But I started watching it again with them and I, this is a show I could definitely see myself returning to again and again. It’s so good, so much queer joy. Highly recommend to everybody.
I know you posted it when it first came out, Kate and I just am not a one to watch a lot of TV shows, but then I was watching it and I’m like, Why did I wait so long? But what about you? What was your queer joy?
Kate: It’s okay. Yeah, it will still be there and we’ll watch it over and over again.
Colette: Yep, exactly. But what about you? What’s been your queer joy this week?
Kate: Mine’s also a TV show. I mean, I feel like we [00:02:00] always talk about TV shows, but I just have to mention, I started Umbrella Academy last night and, oh, my goodness. Okay, so I’d heard that they handled the Elliott Page transition well, and the first time, like there are two scenes, I have to warn people who are trans who are gonna watch this, who are like, watch, if you watch the first thing, you’re like, that’s it?
Like for me, I was like, seriously, that’s all they’re gonna do? And then it like keeps coming up and every time it’s better. And just that moment of somebody seeing themselves for the first time, even if it’s just a TV show and you like watch them see themselves for the first time, you’re like, I get that.
I feel that, like that’s gender euphoria for me.
Colette: Yes, lovely
Kate: yeah, [00:03:00] I was a big fan of how they handled that.
Colette: Queer representation matters. It’s so important to be able to see those examples on screen, so we love it being well done.
Kate: Alright, Lin you’re up.
Lin: All right. Well, I had kind of a hard weekend, but I was thinking about, I knew you guys were gonna ask this, so I had to like, you know, get creative and I was thinking about like my family, we’re gonna get into this later, but I’ve just been like really grateful for my family. I know like, the coming out process can be really hard for people and their families, but for my family, like it wasn’t hard.
And after like a tough weekend, I was able to just talk to my dad and I started the conversation with, I don’t really wanna talk about my weekend. And he just was like, Okay, call me. And I’m like, Okay. So we just like talked about everything [00:04:00] else and then I was just thinking about like how grateful I am that he like calls me and wants to know what’s going on in my life and really cares. I was also thinking about my mom too is really similar, you know, she’ll just be like, call me and I’m like, Okay, and we just get to talk about everything. Just whatever’s going on and I’m just really grateful for that and like grateful for my family. I also have some like amazing sisters who are pretty awesome.
I have one like queer sister who’s like pretty out and it’s just cool to know, my family is so supportive of me, through good times and bad times and then everything in the middle. So I’ve just been like finding joy in chatting with my family and especially like the conversation I had with my dad recently.
So yeah, that’s kind of, that was kind of my queer joy is just chatting with him and he’s just always been there for me, like in my older adult life, . So that’s been nice. And I’m also grateful for my mom too, cuz she’s the same way. So, yeah, that’s [00:05:00] kind of what was joyous to me is chatting with my dad.
Colette: I’m really glad you have
Lin: Thank
Colette: you have that.
Lin: Thank you.
Also I really loved Umbrella Academy and season three was kind of my least favorite, but just watching Victor’s whole journey was really empowering and it was that euphoric moment. Like, I remember the first time, like I had a haircut that I was happy with and a really long time and it was just really exciting.
Oh, spoiler alert, I guess, for people, but
Kate: Yeah.
Lin: it was good. So
Kate: Yeah, for sure. Okay. Good to know. I haven’t finished it, so it’s good to know that maybe season three isn’t gonna be my favorite, but I do really like Victor
Lin: Okay.
Kate: We haven’t really had anybody, I think, who’s expressed queer joy about their dad before, I don’t think.
Colette: That doesn’t ring a bell
Kate: I think that’s really [00:06:00] cool. I’m really excited to have somebody who’s said, Yeah, my dad is really supportive. I think that’s, that’s really important and really awesome. I think men and dads are sometimes not as celebrated as often as like in these sorts of circumstances.
And so I think it’s important for us to recognize when dads are cool.
Lin: Yeah. And we’re gonna get into it, but Right? The dad that I know right now is like very different than the dad that has always been there, like necessarily like when I was younger. But overall, like I’m really happy with like our relationship. His support and stuff and, and my mom’s too. My mom’s always, always been my number one supporter, so it, it’s been good.
Kate: That’s awesome.
Lin: Yeah,
Kate: Well, I guess with that, how about we jump into your queer in 60 seconds? That’s more like three minutes.[00:07:00]
Lin: Okay. So my name is Lin Flores. My pronouns are she/they. I am living and working in Salt Lake City, Utah, and I basically have always been like a very religious person, like spiritual probably is the better word. I essentially grew up in the south, so the Bible belt lots of different religious things going on there and all my friends. Of some kind of faith usually. So I had friends who were Catholic, who were Baptist, who were Mormon, and just everything basically. So it was everything in my life child, like in my childhood was in the context of like, religion, or, you know, spirituality.
And my dad’s Catholic. So that was kind of, my first introduction to faith. And then my mom, once they separated cuz they got divorced, my mom kind of had us going to like a Baptist [00:08:00] church. And so I was practicing that religion for a while. And then ultimately in my teenage years, I became Mormon. I became LDS.
So I’m a convert as they call us. I got baptized when I was 17. I had to wait though because my mom wasn’t like a very big fan of the LDS religion. . And so I wanted to get baptized when I was 15, but it was kind of a process, and I ended up getting baptized on my 17th birthday. And after that I went to BYU I, where I studied history, education.
So I know me and Kate probably can geek out on some things, maybe
Kate: Woo. Woo. Yeah.
Lin: So that, that was cool. I had a actually pretty good experience in Rexburg, formative for sure. Definitely there were hard moments, but overall I had a lot of really supportive professors and a very small close group of friends who are still my friends actually. And then after I graduated, I [00:09:00] came here to work.
I got a job teaching at Herriman High where I taught US history, world history, art, history, drawing, foundations, just lots of things. I also was the GSA advisor, the Poetry Slam advisor, the speech and debate assistant coach. So I did a lot of things. Got really involved during that
Colette: That’s a lot
Lin: I know, so busy, and I just like, kind of put my whole heart into working and it was really fun.
Honestly, I had a really strong group of friends that I went to church with in that same area. So my whole life was kind of in this bubble of Herriman basically. I worked in Herriman, I taught in Herriman I volunteered in Herriman, I went to church in Herriman like everything was just in this small white suburb, conservative suburb that was rapidly expanding.
It’s quite large now and it’s still being built in and stuff. So that was kind of, my whole world was kind of in that suburb[00:10:00]
Kate: crazy cuz I, I grew up in Riverton. I went to Riverton High and when I was in high school, which was very many years ago, like 15 years ago, Herriman was nothing like, there was nothing out there. We would go out there to play basketball and it, yeah, it was just, there were like two, two church buildings.
The really old one. I dunno if you know that really the, it’s a really cool old one. That’s your church.
Lin: That was my ward for like
Kate: Oh, that, that church building is awesome. Anyway. Yeah, like Herman has really exploded.
Lin: It has, it really has. And it’s like gotten more diverse as like a suburb can get, I guess. As far as like having a large, like, Latino, latinx group of people there, which is pretty cool. But it’s definitely like, it’s definitely a vibe. as you know, Kate. Colette, do you know the Herriman area at all?
Colette: Not really.
Lin: Yeah. All right. Well, it’s, it’s a whole thing. [00:11:00] So that was kind of my experience. I came out over like, Okay, so here’s the thing. I’ve always been queer and I always been pretty much out. But when I became LDS I kind of just like quieted that a lot. Like, and just like didn’t really talk about it ever with anyone.
I came out to a couple people at university but like in Rexburg. But I didn’t really feel confident to just like talk about my feelings necessarily. It was more just this is what I look like, this is how I am and that’s it. And so I formally like came out when I was 23, during my sacrament talk actually.
And it was like a whole moment but
Kate: Oof. Yeah.
Lin: good though. It was actually a really good experience. I made lots of friends and I had like a really supportive bishop. His wife, not so much, but everyone else was pretty great. Had really supportive, like Relief Society president and just friends and, honestly, like I [00:12:00] was really, I think in a lot of ways thriving.
But in other ways, not so much, you know, duality and all that. But anyway, after coming out public, like officially, officially, I just continued like working and I got, I started my MFA program and then I kind of just decided like teaching wasn’t something that was gonna get me everything I wanted outta life necessarily.
So, right now I’m a full time student and writer. I attend University of New Orleans and I’m getting my MFA in creative writing with an emphasis in poetry. And I’m also working on my second manuscript. So yeah, I’m a poet also. I probably left that out somewhere. So I identify like as a poet and a writer, and so I also am really heavily involved in like the poetry community here in Salt Lake City.
Kate: A professional poet that is impressive to be a professional poet.
Lin: Thank you. I think so.
Kate: Long were [00:13:00] you teaching?
Lin: I taught for five years, so
Kate: so right at the, right at the mark of, That’s about how long teachers last in public school, so
Lin: I was hoping someone would bring that up. Yeah. a rough environment. For different reasons. I actually loved my students though it has nothing to do with them. More so like the community, like not having the full support necessarily always of the board, like the school boards. Sometimes admin also have their hands tied with what they can help you with and so that’s hard.
There’s just like so many things that I feel like I was somewhat labeled a lot just because of how I look. And so I got kids that wanted to be in my class, but other people wouldn’t be in my class just because of who I am, which is silly cuz I’m a great teacher. So overall my classes were always full, like, don’t get me wrong, but. Because I was, I’m a great teacher, But it [00:14:00] was definitely an interesting community and I think I just really started to be aware of like the otherness that happens sometimes in like white communities and conservative communities. And it was like a moment, It was a whole journey. And I think my first book kind of peaks into that a little bit. My first book, my poetry collection came out in 2020 and I, it was just this like very emotive experience of going through, essentially just being isolated in a suburb, and by my own choosing, because I thought that that’s what people do, especially Mormon people.
I just thought you buy a house in a suburb and you go to church and you work. That’s it. Like, that’s what you do. And it’s like, actually there’s this whole other world. And my book really explores that. And like health settings impact your mindset and your spiritual health. And your emotional health.
And like, just knowing that I was not white, knowing that I was not a Republican, knowing that I was queer, it just [00:15:00] really isolated me in lots of ways. And it wasn’t until I started changing my environment that I started to feel completely at peace with who I am and what I look like. And that was really nice.
And I had lots of really supportive friends and allies and things.
Kate: Were you doing GSA with a co-teacher, or were, was it just you?
Lin: So yeah, originally I was doing it by myself. And then I had a like a helpful advisor who was an ally, but most of it was like on me to take care of, like as the, the head advisor.
Kate: Yeah, that’s really hard because right now GSAs are really being targeted and so I don’t know if you experienced any of that. I know this year especially, they’re really being targeted.
Lin: Yeah, I think that I was lucky enough to either have an admin that like protected [00:16:00] me from a lot of that negativity and or lucky enough to just like have the respect of my coworkers, to not have to be like faced with as much adversity as like other schools. But there were certainly things that impacted us, like I felt unsupported, like when a student was called the F slur and the only, only punishment was like an apology from the student. Or instead of being suspended or something. I felt like a lack of support in that way. Like, I remember someone wrote on in our teacher’s board, f all and then slurs, and then I hate GSA underneath it.
So just like those like kinds of really hateful things. There was just no support really. And, and sometimes it was as simple as, well, we, we didn’t see anyone on the camera do it. It’s like, okay. But we have like suspects, Like we know, we know like who had access to the room. We can assume it was these [00:17:00] people.
What can be done? And, and really it was just like, Oh, we had a talk with them. Just like not, I don’t think anything harsh enough to like facilitate real change. unfortunately, and like other experiences, like I had a friend, an English teacher, one of my closest friends, she had a progress sticker on her door and it was ripped off and thrown away, like just things like that that are disrespectful but also like a form of discrimination that just was, they weren’t always handled the way that like I would’ve liked them handled.
And so even though we didn’t face like anyone threatening for us not to be a club or anything like that, there were definitely times where there was a lack of what I think is like a healthy amount of discipline for like these kinds of actions, especially cuz queer youth are at such high risks with their mental health and my whole goal in GSA really [00:18:00] was to make sure my kids were safe. And I felt like a lot of them did feel that way. But again, when it came to something like serious like this, it was like I can’t really do anything. I’m just a teacher. Right? And that’s kind of sad cuz you think your teachers are superheroes but they’re not.
It’s really everyone above them who has power. And so it was like kind of disheartening that is like part of the reason why I left is cuz it was very disheartening as a teacher to not always feel like I had any power to make long lasting change. And, and I guess that’s kind of a gray area, like lasting change maybe in individual lives, but systemically not, not really.
Right. So
Colette: And When I’m so curious what it was like for you to be a marginalized individual yourself as you are helping your marginalized [00:19:00] students and trying to protect them while trying to protect yourself. Is that something you can talk a bit about?
Lin: Can I talk about what it was like as a minority, as a Latinx person, like in the school system and also trying to like help my minority students? Is that kind of what you’re thinking?
Colette: Well, and you’re multiply marginalized as well being queer.
Lin: It’s like so weird because I think it wasn’t until the 2016 election really, which was the year before I started teaching that I was so aware of my non whiteness. I think I kind of was very naive, I think too, just naive to the idea that like, I would be othered, I guess, because I hadn’t really experienced anything so direct before.
Anyway, after that happened, I started [00:20:00] teaching after the 2016 election, I started teaching and it was man, yeah, I don’t know. I think that I was trying so hard to be like an unbiased teacher and to not like indoctrinate children with like my thoughts and stuff. That I created spaces for like open discussion.
However, like it wasn’t until I would say my second year teaching that I realized that some spaces like are not up for discussion, if you will.
Colette: Sure.
Lin: And you know, I’ve had some pretty crazy experiences in the classroom as most high school teachers have and I would say that I’ll just share this one story.
I’ll share a couple stories. The first one was about the first day that I decided to like dress as I felt most comfortable and not as I thought that students expected, [00:21:00] like a AFAB person to dress.
Colette: Hmm.
Lin: And so that was my second year teaching. I was going through a really hard time. I had like, my mental health was not good.
I was having a lot of like suicide ideation going on and. Hurting myself and things like that. And I think that I just decided one day like I’m gonna show up in my body as I want my body to look. And I decided to like, wear like slacks and like a button up and like a tie, A tie that I had like for years, but never, never worn anywhere.
I just had it in my closet and I would wear it some nights, like when I was depressed. So I decided to go to school in my tie and I was so nervous cause I had so many LDS kids who like talked about seminary, who like would go from my period to, to seminary. Just like, you know, so nervous to see like what [00:22:00] the reaction would be, but also feeling very like at peace, like, you know what, like this is how I feel comfortable and that’s what I’m gonna do.
And I remember I was so dang nervous, but this kid immediately, who, one of my Mormon kids was like, You look great. And that’s like all he said. Like he said, You look great. And then another female LDS kid said, Oh, I love your tie. And then like literally, I just felt so euphoric, I guess, kind of right?
Like I just felt so comfortable and happy and just like this sigh of relief, like, wow. Like they don’t care. Like they literally don’t care. And it was honestly like, I tell that story like every, every once in a while when it comes up, but it was such a powerful moment for me to like show up in my body as I, as I wanted to show up.
And granted, like I, by all definitions, like never dressed [00:23:00] like super fem ever necessarily except for church, but. Like, I’ve never really crossed any boundaries necessarily. So it was kind of like the first time. That was like pretty awesome. And so that was cool. And kind of once that started happening, a lot of my kids, once that started happening more where I could show up as myself, a lot of the kids started opening up about like their gender identity and their sexuality. And I would do like warmups, we call them starters every day.
And I had one kid who just like courageously raised her hand. She was, she was also LDS just like I am. And she talked about like being in love with this girl in seventh grade and like realizing she was gay. And those were her pronouns back then, by the way. Anyway, so yeah, it was really interesting and nice to see kids [00:24:00] just like feel comfortable as themselves. And then there were also other moments that were like formative. Once I started to use they, them as well as she heard I remember it was in my art class, I was teaching foundations art and I was talking about like how we express ourselves and like self portraits cuz we were gonna do self portraits.
And I told the kids about the hard time in my life where I was trying to figure out like who I was. And I talked about like being queer in a predominantly like religious area, the Bible belt. And it was really cool to just see everyone like, just like nod their heads. Like no one was like freaking out.
I didn’t get a parent email, Like no one was concerned that I was queer. No one was worried that I was like indoctrinating anyone. They just. We’re like, Okay, cool, whatever. And that was really nice. So [00:25:00] there’s like been like really good experiences. My coworkers have been like relatively awesome about my queerness.
I would say being a a person of color has actually been the hardest part, which shouldn’t surprise anyone, I don’t think, the hardest part I think of that is like, I’ve had some pretty wild things. I think being like an AFAB person also, being perceived as being female Right? Like, has also been pretty hard in the school system, surprisingly, Even though most of us are.
I experienced like different forms of discrimination less to do with being queer. More to do with like being of color, being like female and these are small things, but they add up over time, right?
These microaggressions add up and they become really heavy on you. So that’s another reason why like I wanted to leave the school district as well, or at least the classroom.[00:26:00] So one example was just like I had a kid try to talk about how the n word and the n word that’s a slur is not offensive. It’s only offensive cuz people think it is.
And that was like his argument. And you know, as a teacher of teenagers, it’s never, always the best idea to go head to head with a kid like that. It’s usually better to let that their peers do it and then to like course correct or kind of like guide the conversation back to what the objective is. And so that like, was like a really frustrating experience.
But as the teacher who has to stay calm as a minority and as like an ally, like I was just very, like, I let the students kind of take control of it. And, you know, every student, not every student, a lot of students were like, let me tell you like this is not okay. [00:27:00] And I was able to kind of like help with that conversation and explain why no. That’s not right. There is no gray area like here for you as like a white cishet man or a young man to think that this is okay and that you can say this word. And so like that was, that was like one example of like something kind of triggering something hard, like as a minority to listen to. I had a student who jokingly told me,
I had a student who basically told me I should be, We were, yeah, it’s kind of a long story. Short version of it is that the student jokingly said that, I should be deported, cuz my students know that I’m not white. They know that I’m Mexican and I’ve talked about being Mexican before. And it was just like a really uncomfortable moment. [00:28:00] And I think it, I think for her too, like she realized like, wait, why did I say that?
Like, whoa, what ? And it was just weird. It was a really weird moment. Cuz kids are learning, right? The 16 year old is learning, but examining, I think examining like, why would you say that is pretty important? Why would you use that word?
Yeah. So yeah. Gosh, I didn’t realize it would be hard to talk about.
Sorry, I didn’t think it would be as hard as it’s,
Colette: and you don’t need to talk about, But I think it’s important to show, it’s hard how we internalize shame about marginalization. I think, at least for me, I don’t wanna speak for you, but it can be hard to talk about these experiences because it does bring up shame, which makes us wanna withdraw
Lin: And I think like overall, it was a moment of me examining like, Oh, like I’ve done all this work with these kids, like all year long. and at [00:29:00] the end of the day, I’m still a brown body to them.
Colette: Oof.
Lin: And that’s like hard, you know, cuz like, I love this kid. This kid was awesome. And, and there is space for both, right?
There’s space for me to be like extremely offended and hurt and just saddened that like, we’re not past this. Like, in your mind, right? As a white person. And also be like, this is a kid. This kid’s gonna learn a lot. And, and we had a conversation afterward and I told her, you know, like, hey, and she just immediately said, I’m so sorry. Like, I don’t even know why I said that. And you know, it was good. Like, we had a really good conversation afterward and I just told her like, you know, I’m not angry cuz what else do you say to a kid? I don’t know they’re kids. I just said, I, I was uncomfortable and I think the whole class was uncomfortable cause they all like, at the same time kind of gasped.
Like what the just not [00:30:00] expecting that kind of response. And I just told her, you know, like, I think you should think about why, I think you should think about why you used that word deported. I should be deported. And so it was interesting. It was a really interesting experience. But yeah, I think there’s space for both.
There’s space for me to be like upset and her and disappointed and also give her grace cuz she’s just a kid and we ha and those are, those are learned, Those are learned languages, right? Those are things that she’s learned at home to and. And from society and from social media and all these things.
So I think, yeah, just the duality, right? Living in both spaces is hard, but it’s a reality that I experienced more than once. This is just one example, at the school, and it was hard. It was a really hard thing to deal with. And ultimately, I left school for a lot of reasons, but certainly one of them is feeling [00:31:00] othered, feeling a sense of powerlessness or not being helpful enough to my kids, to my students.
So that was, that was part of it, for sure.
Kate: So I think you’re touching it is really remarkable that you came in in 2017, you said 2017. When things, when tensions within schools are really beginning to rise and at now a really crucial point where nobody wants to be in the classroom. It’s interesting. I have a few questions. I would like to know if you felt supported by the administration in the ways that they, like maybe held an assembly or something, or any way that they show that they’re an ally to you, not just as a queer person, but as a person of color. And if parents, if there were parents that, that offered any sort of allyship.[00:32:00]
Lin: Mm. Well, It’s complicated. The relationship with admin is so complicated because there’s so much they actually can’t do or say to us sometimes the
Kate: the thing, right? Like they’re, they’re beholden to the school board and everything, so there’s so many layers here. Sorry. Keep going.
Lin: No, you’re right. There are a lot of layers and it’s so complicated because there’s this belief, I think that admin thinks that all teachers hate them and and that, you know, vice versa. Right? And then they hate us, but it’s not true. I think there is so little that they can do sometimes, or that they can even tell us sometimes because of all these rules they have to follow.
Or that they think they have to follow? Maybe? Um, I’m not sure cause I’m not an admin, but I do think that there were ways that I felt supported, There were ways that I didn’t feel supported. So like examples of ways that I felt supported by admin is that, like when I started going by Lin. My legal name is not Lin uh, so it’s just a shortened version of my [00:33:00] full name.
When I started going by Lin I, I sent an email and I put my pronouns in it and, they immediately, like a day later, changed it on the school website and it was great. Like, they were so supportive.
Colette: awesome.
Lin: Yeah. And other ways too, like just showing like, even though they didn’t always show up for the GSA things and GSA activities, like they let me, they let me do a professional development meeting on supporting Queer youth and students and mental health and I was able to have like an hour of a Friday and teach about different practices and things of why you should use a student’s pronouns and why you should ask their name and you know, things like that.
And I felt supported in that that way as well. Anything that like the GSA wanted to do, like if it was like a field trip or, you know, really, really whatever we asked for, we were able to do mostly. But there were other things like, uh, [00:34:00] no, you cannot go protest with ’em at 11:00 AM because of whatever day of silence.
Like, you will get fired if you do that. Like, there’s different like, lines basically. And so there are other ways that I didn’t always feel supported. Like I gave examples earlier about like the F slur being used and even though admin was really quick to respond and say like, We’re bringing the kid down, now we’re gonna contact his parents.
It was like, And I’m sorry, Right. Or, like the, the thing with the art teacher, like there were little things basically that I didn’t feel support on, but then there’s like almost an equal list of things that I did. And so it’s such a fine line that I feel like they have to toe and at, at the end of it all, Like I don’t know that they’re the bad guys, but I also don’t know that, I dunno, It’s, it’s complicated.
Kate: Because if you’re gonna have like an assembly, let’s say, and say we’re gonna talk about queer [00:35:00] issues, or we’re gonna talk about how to not use certain language, like very basic, very, very basic cultural competency, that if you have that assembly, you are gonna have parents who show up who are against these sorts of initiatives.
And so
Lin: It’s, it’s so complicated cuz I feel like
Kate: a toxic situation. Yeah.
Lin: it’s toxic, it’s complicated. It’s a lot of things. I think that, like overall, I think that most admin want their teachers to feel supported. , but there’s only so much that they think that they can do without getting fired or without moving schools or without having a hundred parent emails.
And at the end of the day, truly they’re serving the parents. Like that’s kind of the biggest problem I think in education right now, is because parents think that, that [00:36:00] they know what’s best. Right? And like, whatever, Like I don’t even know what to say about that cause I’m not a parent. But I do think that there has become this shift in power in education, but not for the better.
Like where parents would accuse teachers, like at my school of like bullying their kid for not letting them turn in assignment. I was like, this is the deadline. like, what do you mean? Or just like lots of crazy examples. Like I’ve seen parent emails saying that they don’t want their kids reading Trevor Noah.
They don’t, they don’t think that that’s okay.
Kate: book‘s excellent. That’s so sad.
Lin: Excellent for apartheid and it ties to standards, like it’s a great book. Like so many things like that. I had my students listen to 1619 as an assignment, had parents up in arms about it. They’re super pissed. But my admin did a really good job of like protecting me and like, not having me read those emails or listen to those phone calls or anything.
But at the same time, I got a visit from [00:37:00] admin saying, You need to teach both sides. And I’m like, both sides of what? Like, this episode is about slavery. Like, I don’t even know what that means, like, I had no, Yeah, so there was, there was some really like toxic, dangerous things I think happening at the school.
And I think it’s worse off now that I’m not there, frankly, like, not like in a overly confident way. More just the less representation you have in your staff, the less the kids see themselves anywhere. And that is so detrimental. I have one of my favorite kids she wrote me this really nice note and I have it just like on my refrigerator.
And she, I had her when she was young, she was like a sophomore, then I had her again as a junior. But just the quietest kid. The first year I, I met her, just never said really anything. And then she took me again junior year and she wrote me the note saying that, it was really important for her to have me because [00:38:00] she saw herself represented and I taught her that it’s okay to be queer and I don’t know this, but it saved her life.
Like those kinds of things matter. And like kids who see themselves somewhere, Know that there’s a future, there’s a possibility, of a world where they exist and they’re happy, and it’s okay. Like it’s great. It’s better than okay. It’s like celebrated to be who you are. And that’s like something that I think the school is worse off for, for not having people who are as visibly queer or visibly not white.
You know, like bi teachers are few and far between in Utah and so it is so sad that they’re not more, and it’s sad that like kids aren’t always seeing themselves, doing the things that maybe they wanna do or that they want to do in the future. So overall, like it’s a really toxic slash [00:39:00] complicated system right now in education.
They were gonna provide a, like a, a gender sexuality guideline for Utah. And the community was so pissed and they ended up not doing it. The, the state of Utah, the school education board, they didn’t do it. And I think that like now parents can say, Don’t ask my kids what their pronouns are. You’re not allowed to do that.
It’s like, well technically we’re not, not allowed to do it, but we’re not necessarily supposed to. Like, it’s this really complicated thing. Like I have a friend who still teaches and he was advised not to ask students their pronouns. And I think that it’s just really sad because it gives the students an opportunity to show who they are and tell you how they wanna be addressed.
And right now, even that is under attack, which is so silly to me. But anyway, those are some of my thoughts about [00:40:00] all of.
Colette: Thank you for sharing all of those. We talk a lot about systems here and how systems really end up hurting people and how they can help, and I appreciate you being, we haven’t talked much about the education system, so appreciate you talking about your experience. Um, at the end of that, you meant, talked about the importance of pronouns.
I’d love hearing your experience coming to terms with your pronouns, started using they/them, you said she/they at the beginning of the podcast. I’d love to hear about your experience with that, if you’re willing to share.
Lin: Yeah, it’s relatively short. I basically just, What is gender like? I know you guys have a literal answer, right? Uh, we all do. No, we don’t. Okay. Well, that’s kind of like, kind of where this started, I suppose, is that I, I don’t even know like how I learned about the pronouns they them, but I did and it felt so good.
It was kinda like putting on my tie and wearing [00:41:00] it publicly. It felt so right, it felt so good. And I, I get misgendered a lot. People call me, he a lot, especially like in winter when I have on a hoodie, I always get called he and that didn’t feel right. It didn’t feel right for me. But they felt perfect.
And I just said literally one day, like in the middle of the school year, I was like, You know what? This feels good. I’m gonna start like putting this on my email. I’m gonna start putting it like on slides. I’m gonna start doing this. And I did. And then the following school year, I just started the year with, Hey, my name is, Flores, you can call me Flores or Ms. Flores, whatever you’re comfortable with, Whatever is easier for you. My pronouns are she/they, which means you can say they went to the bathroom or they assigned a lot of homework this week. Or you can say, Ms. Flores assigned a lot of homework this week. She’s so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I just started doing it and it felt, it felt right.
And so that’s kind of it. I don’t have like anything [00:42:00] too remarkable necessarily.
Kate: Did you ever use Mx. as a, as an id? An honorific? Yeah.
Lin: Yeah, I didn’t, but I thought about it. I actually follow this AP art history teacher, um, and they use Mx. and I liked it, but I, I was kinda. At the point where I knew it was gonna be my last year teaching or close to my last year teaching. And I was just like, eh, I’m, I’m, I feel fine about Ms. Flores. So, but truly very few of my kids called me that.
They mostly called me Flores and a lot of them were super great with using they them pronouns for me. Which is like amazing. I just, yeah, honestly that like, people always get freaked out when I told them, tell them I used to teach high school. Cuz first off, they don’t believe like how old I am. Second off second off they just think teenagers are the worst. Um, but truly my [00:43:00] kids were like amazing. They were really good kids.
Kate: That’s what’s so hard is to have good teachers and minority teachers leaving the classroom. Teachers in general, leaving the classroom. People who are trained to be teachers leaving the classroom. You know,
Lin: Oh yeah. It’s rough right now.
Kate: For those that don’t know though, the Utah situation is exceptionally bad, within the United States. At Salt Lake City School District, Superintendent Timothy Gatson, he was forced out. Yeah, he was the first Black man to be superintendent. If I’m not mistaken and forced out essentially by the parents. And then you also have Davis County was investigated by the Justice Department. They were definitely federally investigated has its BIPOC student that dies by [00:44:00] suicide. Lots of issues all around the state concerning minority students and teachers. And when I was in California, I was, I was, I was in Utah when George Floyd was murdered. I was in Utah, but my colleagues in California, I was teaching in California. My colleagues in California started like a new program. What are we gonna do to like, help BIPOC students and, um, other BIPOC teachers? And the idea was let’s get more minority teachers and graduate students and that will help.
And all of the minority teachers that we had were saying, who’s gonna protect those people? We don’t have a system in place, is going to actually protect these teachers from parents, from students, [00:45:00] from all of this other stuff that’s taking place. There’s not a system to, to protect people, so sometimes it isn’t. The, our first instinct is representation and get more representation in there. But if you don’t have an entire system that’s in place to protect teachers like you, it sounds like you, there was a lack of protection for you that we have to actually recreate this system.
Lin: Yeah. And I think, well, I think that’s why there’s this mass exodus. It’s not, I mean, for, for lots of reasons, but definitely like this idea that like we can’t teach things that are right or that are like literally, right. Like there is no gray area on without some kind of backlash. And these like threats and accusations that come up and stuff.
And I think that like, as kinda like as you were saying, there’s [00:46:00] maybe there are systems, but they’re not accessible. They’re not like, they don’t tell us where to go when. Someone says something racist, and if it’s something homophobic, it’s, I’ll talk to them, I’ll, I’ll talk to them right away. And it’s like, okay, but like, what’s the system in place to protect this or prevent this?
And so that’s, that’s what’s hard I think. And there’s lots of teachers who are good allies, who are leaving as well. Uh, it’s not just minority teachers, though. We are most impacted. Right? It’s also definitely our allies too. Like I have a friend who still works, She’s like my best friend and she literally has had so many, so many cases already this year of people just saying really racist things.
And it’s just a really big issue. And I just don’t think people understand like how bad it is cuz they’re not there. Right? You’re not there. the kids every day. You don’t know exactly what’s being said. And the parents are sometimes worse, [00:47:00] obviously. They probably are worse usually. I mean, if you look at any KSL article in the comments, it’s pretty, it’s pretty disheartening.
It’s pretty uncomfortable. It’s mind blowing, truly how far back some of these people are or, or help backwards they are. It’s crazy. So yeah, I think you’re right. I think there’s a lack of like, support. And if there is support, it’s very, very small and not always like well talked about, well known about like not well advertised
Cause they don’t want you to advertise, right? Cause they don’t want like a news article coming out with a story that’s like, I think that’s another thing that was really frustrating about the schools is that like everything had to be so like hush hush. Because that’s like the last thing they want is like the public knowing anything bad that’s going on.
But guess what? Like bad stuff is going on. Like it’s not good. So anyway, that’s kind of my, my 2 cents on that. But yeah, you tells, you tells. Rough out here[00:48:00]
Kate: Thank you for spending so much time talking about this. It’s a really important, relevant issue. I’m glad that we were able to invite you on to have this discussion, but you’re like so multifaceted. There’s lots of other things to talk about.
Lin: I know. I don’t know how this became about, about work, about school. I don’t even work there anymore.
Kate: maybe we could talk more about growing up and your, your parents not being LDS or Latter Day Saints and how that’s impacted your relationship with them.
Lin: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I feel like it was kind of rough. So just background, My parents got separated when I was like in sixth grade or something. And it was like a really messy, not good, very hostile, volatile, like situation. Just bad. Just bad overall. And a lot of it is, cuz my dad is an [00:49:00] addict. He abused substances and it was truly like just a monster, just someone who was not my dad.
And we’ve come so far, it’s incredible, in my opinion, like how transitions and changes happen. Transformations, how much healing can be done. And like a lot of that in my specific stories, due to the atonement, which I’m really grateful for, like I’m grateful my dad went through like steps to get clean, but then also like a lot of that had to do with like him finding his faith, which was really great and very impactful for our relationship.
And so it’s very important that I put it in context, like we weren’t always this great, happy family, that’s for sure. And a lot of my second book actually, that I’m writing is about, about my experiences with my dad, like as a kid, because I knew him as this person who was like so hard working and like so powerful and always like [00:50:00] taking care of us in the sense of like would take a shopping and take us to go do fun things and take us to Shipley’s Donuts every morning.
And it was just like lots of like ritual things that like we had and then that started changing like once he began abusing substances and things and that was really difficult. He like abused my mom. He abused drugs and alcohol and it was hard. It was really hard. He was definitely not great and so my mom like kind of needed a support system.
So she started taking us to like a Baptist church when I was like in junior high. And I just like didn’t really love it. Like I loved like the Christian rock. I was that kind of southern person, but I didn’t love all of the things that they taught about, especially about queer people. And so, cause it didn’t resonate with me, obviously, like I’ve known I was queer since fifth grade.
So it was just not right for me at all. But I did like a lot of things about it. Like I liked the music, I [00:51:00] liked like the Bible stories and like, I felt a really strong, a really strong testimony of who Jesus Christ was. And that was very important for me and it still is really important for me.
Yeah, like my family has always been very supportive of me being queer and they’ve always really known, it’s never been like a surprise that I’m queer, like ever . I’m just like this kid who as long as I could was without a shirt on and throwing balls. And I had a bunch of guy friends and I even had like crushes on guys, but like, it was never anything serious at all.
More like wanting to be them, I would say . Yeah. And anyway, long story short, my family was great. Like I have a couple vivid memories of my dad using some not very nice slurs, like in in Spanish and things like that. And I, me being like, What does that mean? And he would tell me and I’m like, Oh, okay, that’s not great.
Is, I wonder if that’s how he feels about queer [00:52:00] people, but I always knew he didn’t feel that way about me, if that makes sense. It’s like kind of weird. There’s something about like Mexican dads, they’re just like very bossy and they just like need to be the man. And it’s just like kind of the, this thing that I kind of took on, but also like resisted really hardcore.
I was like, No, no, you’re always gonna tell me what to do. Like I don’t care if you’re like the man. And just kind of like always fighting back against that and taking on some of the confidence to, and I don’t know, it was interesting, but I do think that, like my dad always knew I was queer.
My mom always knew I was queer and they always, kind of like dropped hints. Like, Well, do you think she’s pretty? And like, Well, do you wanna wear this? Do you wanna like my mom one time for like a christening we went to, she like had, or maybe it was a wedding, I can’t remember. [00:53:00] She had pants made for me instead of dress a dress cuz she knew like I hated dresses.
And ironically I told her like, no, like I wanna dress, like I don’t wanna stand out. And she was like, Oh, well I already made these pants for you. Sorry,
Kate: Oh.
Lin: So kind of funny. But, but yeah, she’s always been like super supportive and yeah, like I had my first girl, my first real girlfriend in like seventh grade. So my family’s just been always really supportive. My sister, who’s been like the most openly queer, had a girlfriend for like four years. Like, it just wasn’t a big deal.
A lot of the big deal happened once I became Mormon, I think. And, and a little bit before that too, because I had heard all these like things about being queer and how it is a sin to act on it. And that was pretty consistent across most religions, I felt like, like in Catholicism, I felt that that same message was taught in the Baptist faith.
It was a [00:54:00] little bit like that. And then when I started investigating Mormonism, the LDS faith, I also kind of picked up on that. It’s not so much who you are, it’s what you do. And it’s so funny because I had the most supportive family, like, despite my dad being like a hot mess, but he didn’t care, you know?
So it’s so ironic that I spent so much time in that shame and feeling. So
I don’t know, feeling like I needed to change, I guess. It’s so ironic cuz I had the most supportive family and like my dad, we, I took him to a drag show last year and like he had a ball. He was, he did some homophobic things, but overall he was like really good baby steps, you know? And then this year for Pride, he actually drove a truck and went over to say hi to the drag queens and took a picture with him and sent it to me.
Colette: so cool.
Lin: Yeah. [00:55:00] Yeah. It’s crazy like the progress, right? and my mom’s always been amazing. So
Colette: And I love that family support. That’s so interesting though, that you decided to join the church that wasn’t as supportive as your family was
Lin: You know what’s so weird is that I just feel like I’m constantly like doing the weirdest stuff, you know? Like the things that just would be the opposite of what you’d expect, kind of, you know, It’s like, oh, God’s like I’m gonna give you this super supportive family. Yeah, it’s gonna be hard with other things going on, but overall, they don’t care.
They love you. But then I’m gonna be the one who’s like creating my own, like moral dilemmas and, and, and shame and things. It is just so ironic. And then like, yeah, like, God didn’t, didn’t like birth me into the church, right? Like I, I don’t have parents who were Mormons, but I chose it. Like, it’s just like, it’s so weird.
Like I was just, I’ve just [00:56:00] always done the hardest thing, I guess.
Colette: Yeah.
Kate: But you like explored other religions and you had some sort of connection it seems like with some of them, but what drew you to Mormonism?
Lin: Gosh. I think like for a lot of comforts, like the fact that this was a lot of it was new information, but things that felt really right. Is kind of what it was like. I’d always had a testimony of who Christ was, but like knowing the plan of salvation I think was a really big deal. Knowing about like the Premortal existence was like a big deal to me.
And knowing that like there is like a path and a structure to like holiness and happiness felt really good to me as well. Like the whole concept of repentance felt really good. Just like so many things felt very hopeful and very good. And there’s still things that give me hope and make me [00:57:00] feel happy and joyous.
But there’s like all this other context, right, that is so complicated and heavy and uncomfy. And I think that like as a young person, I definitely was like vulnerable in the sense of trying to find out what it all means and like trying to figure out what my place was. And I remember like my toughest moment in like my investigation process of the church was Joseph Smith because there’s like a healthy amount of information out out there. By the time I was a teenager and I felt so icky about Joseph Smith, I was like, I don’t wanna feel like this is right. Like, I like everything about the Book of Mormon, but I don’t like him
And I feel like that’s a pretty unique position to come into the church with. But I always knew that was gonna be something that I didn’t like and that I wasn’t okay with ironically. And I [00:58:00] had, so my, one of my best friends in like, is the one who kind of helped me with my faith journey. And she like was the kind of person who would just like, say something just like so straightforward, like didn’t really beat around the bush.
That was just kind of how she was. So she was really straightforward. She was like, Yeah, he was, he was polygamy. It’s not great. But you know what? He was a person and a human and he had flaws. And I was like, Okay. Like there’s no like trying to cover it up. No. Trying to like make some bullshit excuse about all the bullshit he did.
It was just like really straightforward. Like, yeah, these are all the shit. This is all the shit he did. It’s not great, but you know what, This is the Book of Mormon. It’s true. And I was just like, I really respected that. And I also was like, yeah, like, okay. I, I just feel like life is so weird and like the worst things that I’ve ever done, like the worst things, things are like shock.
You [00:59:00] probably are, It would be really a bummer if that’s like the only thing I was known for. So I tried to like give grace in that context, like of like, I’m not perfect, so like, yeah, makes sense. But at the same time it was. Always something I felt not good about I guess. But I remember having like this really intense, like missionary discussion and it wasn’t focused on like him, like as a person who was like flawed or anything like that.
It was more about like the Book of Mormon and the purity of it and a lot of like the good things in it. And I felt like that was true. And so I basically just told myself like, I can get over, I can get over Joseph Smith. He doesn’t have to be something I, I think about all the time. And that was kind of, that’s kind of like how I made it work in [01:00:00] my mind, you know?
And then the other thing obviously was like being queer, that was a huge thing. Cause I already knew I was queer. I already had girlfriends. Like I did the whole thing. Like I. Yeah. And I kind of felt like at that time in my life, it was a really hopeful message to me that this is something that doesn’t have to like hold me back from like being a righteous person, I guess.
And I kind of viewed it as like something really positive that the church viewed queerness as like something that yeah, you’re born with, but it doesn’t mean you have to like act on it and there’s still like a path to happiness for you basically. And I think that like again, at the time that was like a really positive message for me because it wasn’t like, you’re bad because you’re queer.
It was, yeah, you’re queer, but like that’s [01:01:00] okay. Like you can still be a happy member of our church. And it proved to be much more difficult than that.
Kate: Had you talked about that with the missionaries
Lin: No, I hadn’t actually. It was a lot of like internal conversations going on, more so, but I knew like the church’s stance on gay marriage, I knew that they like went out and tried to get people to like vote against it and, you know, ate all that stuff. So like I knew their position, but at the time it just, I was so convinced that like it was not a big deal because I loved Jesus and it didn’t really matter, you know?
And sometimes I still kind of fall into that, uh, anyway, it’s complicated for sure.
Kate: That whole story to me was actually really fascinating. The telling, telling about your conversion is a really interesting.
Lin: Yeah,
Kate: [01:02:00] Nuanced take that I haven’t heard before.
Lin: yeah, yeah. I hear I get that a lot. funny. Yeah. To me it’s just like, I think where I’m at right now with church stuff is that I have changed like a lot of the things I thought when I was young, obviously, and I joined the church and as I’ve grown up and just been more aware of life and of all the bullshit that the church does, I’ve kind of taken the stance that I no longer believe that like, when I die, I won’t be attracted to women anymore or AFAB people, like I no longer believe that that is true.
And I think at 17 I did believe that. Not like, it wasn’t like a hardcore belief, but it was something that I thought like could be true. And if it is, then I’m gonna do everything I can to [01:03:00] like live this kind of life that gets me to the celestial kingdom. Not necessarily being married, that’s like a whole story.
But where I’m at right now I would say is like, I just like love Jesus. I love sacrament meeting. I love church. Like I have had the pleasure of having the most supportive bishops and the greatest friends and it’s actually like crazy because so many of my friends have actually left the church.
So many friends that like I really needed when I was coming out in the Rose Crest Ward, which is that old church building I think you’re talking about. And ironically like I think almost every single one of my like best friends have left. And yeah, it puts me in a really weird crossroads. I feel like even though it doesn’t, it feels like a crossroads though, where I have this mass exodus of people who I love and adore and who agree with me [01:04:00] on so many things who have now left.
And so what does that mean about me? And that’s like really a weird place to be in.
Colette: Sure.
Lin: Yeah, it’s hard. But like truly, I just love church. Like, I don’t even know, like, and I don’t discount like all the bullshit that like, that the church has going on and that like policies and doctrines all the bullshit.
Like I don’t discount any of that. Like I know, I know. Like, I know, like I’ve had a bishop’s wife tell me I’m too pretty to be gay and like, am I not worried about having babies? Like I’ve had lots of weird experiences, like bad shit, but. I also have had literally saving experiences and like I have had so many spiritual experiences that like are not in my head, , like they’re not.
And so it’s really hard for me to just abandon, abandon all [01:05:00] of it, I guess. Um, cuz it’s my spiritual home.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Lin: that’s where I’m at right now. I do what I want, like, don’t get me wrong, like
Colette: I love
Lin: I love, I love having a latte every day. I love making out with girls and AFAB people, but I’m not, but I’m also not gonna just leave my faith, if that makes sense.
Colette: Yeah. And I mean, going back dualities once again. Right. And I, I love how you own that including having, like, I’ve seen some swag, some t-shirts and stuff you’ve made. Do you wanna talk about how that came to be and what those?
Lin: Yeah, definitely. So when I was writing my first poetry book Reflections While Living in Utah, it was very important to me to like accept that I am queer and I am someone who has like a faith. I am a spiritual person. I believe that like I’m created in the image of the divine, like [01:06:00] I believe in God. And so I wanted like a space for both of those things to happen.
Cuz that’s really what my book is about. It’s about both. It’s about being queer, it’s about not seeing yourself represented as a queer person, as a non-white person. Like it’s basically about showing up as you are and you being great and celebrated and like loved as this like divine spirit. And so I wrote this church talk when I came out.
And in the church talk I talk about being queer and being a child of God and like, being a child of God doesn’t mean I’m not these other things. And yeah, so I made those t-shirts. They say, I, child of God with a rainbow. And then on the back it says, love wins. Love saves. And that’s basically my, my motto, right, is that queer people are at higher risk for mental health.
They’re at higher [01:07:00] risk for attempts of suicide. And they experience lots of really hard things, especially in Utah, where there’s so many communities telling them that they don’t belong or that they need to change, or, you know, they have to meet these certain qualifications to be human and they don’t.
Right? So I made these shirts and, and it’s been awesome to see people wearing them and like people around the country buy them, like, um, which is really exciting. And really the shirt is just meant to represent that duality of being queer and being sp a spirit, being someone who knows that they’re made in a divine image.
And that’s like very important to me because I think there is a lot of power in saying that you are a child of divinity, you are a child of God. Uh, and yeah, that’s kind of where those shirts came from.
Colette: They’re so cool if someone, uh, one, the woman at the retreat I had this weekend was wearing one. I’m like, Oh, I get talk to Lin and I can’t remember if she wore it on Saturday or Sunday. Like I [01:08:00] talk to them on Monday and love that shirt, love them.
Lin: That’s awesome. Yeah. I went to Pro, I went to a Pride, I can’t remember which one actually, but
Colette: it was a back to school
Lin: back to School Pride and a couple people were wearing them, and then I, I did an event before that and people were wearing them, and so it was super exciting just to see. I’ve been to a couple protests and, and I saw like one or two people in the crowd wearing them.
So like, it was pretty cool. Like it made me really happy. Just to see people like owning that duality and owning their intersectionality, you know?
Colette: So cool. I love that.
Lin: I guess like, if there’s like, a last thing I wanted to talk about is just like, some cool upcoming things that like I’m doing for anyone who’s like, interested.
Kate: Yes, please.
Lin: Okay. So as I’ve been like writing my second book, a lot has come up that has to do with my dad. Kind of like what we talked about, just his abuse with substances and just like his kind of coming to Jesus moment and [01:09:00] like changing his life and getting like on the right path and rebuilding our relationship. And my book is basically double of my first book, so it’s 44 poems and they explore childhood, they explore queerness.
They explore like healing and trauma and domestic abuse and things like that. And it’s heavy, but it’s like a really good collection. So I’m really excited about that. I’ll be finished with it in about like a month is my goal to be finished and then I’ll start sending it to publishers, which is super exciting because
Kate: Yeah, it is.
Lin: yeah,
Colette: So cool.
Lin: So that’ll be really cool.
Yeah, so I’ll be hosting a writer’s retreat in November, which I’m really excited about. Or I’ll invite like writers to come and basically develop like 10 solid poems, and then we’re gonna send them out to publishers together, which
Colette: That’s amazing.
Lin: really cool. Like basically helping people kickstart their [01:10:00] publishing career.
So that’ll be cool.
Colette: Oh no, that, that is incredible. To have that specific of an outcome from a retreat.
Lin: Oh yeah.
Colette: Everyone who has any desire to be published should be signing up. That’s so.
Lin: Yeah. It’ll be fun and it’s gonna be like a really cool experience because I think that I’ve missed teaching . I talked a lot about it in this podcast, but like, I have missed being able to like, share that kind of gift with people. Uh, the gift of just like facilitating learning and sharing and connecting, kind of like what you’re talking about.
And it’ll be really cool to like be back in that setting of like facilitating those positive things for growth, uh, specifically for writing.
Colette: Yeah, I love that. And, um, how can they find out more about these things, connect with you, buy shirts, sign for their treatments, et cetera.
Lin: so my website, my website is lincpoetry.com. That’s L I N C P O E T R Y.com. And it [01:11:00] is gonna be basically where you can find shirts, books, retreat stuff, and my Instagram page is at link poetry. So that’s where you can find me.
Colette: And both Kate and I can attest, they’re an awesome follow. So go follow them, get connected and we’ll definitely include all that in the episode. Uh, show notes so people can easily link, link ha over there as well.
Lin: Awesome. Very cool. Thank y’all.
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