Kate: Hello and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, gender queer and intersex experiences. I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/he/they.
Colette: And I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: We’re talking with ruth Gonzalez-Muhlestein and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jump into that, we wanted to start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week.
So Colette, what brought you queer joy this week?
Colette: So as listeners, if they listen to the last podcast episode, know that I’m now dating someone that’s super happy, and it’s been really fun, introducing her to people in my circles and just seeing how excited they are for me and for us. She hasn’t always had a great reaction telling people that we’re dating.
And so being able to [00:01:00] have her see the reaction of my friends and people in my circles, how excited they are, when they’ve known how hard the last several years have been for me has been really fun. And, one friend invited us out to dinner and we were just able to talk and they were able to get to know her.
And it’s just a lot of queer joy to have people excited for queer relationships. So that’s been my queer joy
Kate: Yeah, what great queer joy. That’s so exciting! It’s also it means a lot when the people that you love are hesitant or, you know, find it difficult and you think, “Oh, man, this is gonna be my experience with everyone.” And then you meet the other people and they’re accepting and it’s like, “oh, okay. Yeah, this is the way that people should react.” you know? So,
Colette: For sure.
Kate: So my queer joy involves ruth a little bit. I watched the entirety, I finished the whole thing night. ruth, the, [00:02:00] of Heartbreak High on Netflix. It was so good. I, I talked about it being a combination of, ruth, what’s that other one?
ruth: Heartstopper
Kate: Yeah, Heartstopper and Sex Education. It’s one I recommend it’s a really good one. But yeah, it’s always nice to see, I don’t know yourself represented, but also just like how easy it can be to have queer characters and it not be like always the main thing, other things can be happening and it, and queer characters can just be kind of like, oh yeah, they’re just queer.
And we don’t really have to talk about these things, especially in this one, cuz they have a non-binary character and the pronouns are so easy, but they don’t, don’t come up very often. I don’t know if you noticed that ruth, but like there and it’s just like, not a big deal that this person is non-binary I don’t even think that [00:03:00] that word even comes up very often.
So, I liked that. How just like it wasn’t the main focus. It’s just how it is.
Colette: Oh, that’s awesome. And that’s how it should be in life. And it’s not sometimes when someone comes out does become so easy for some people to centralize being like, oh, that’s you now. That’s all we talk about. That’s your whole personality. And for some cases that may be true, but for a lot of it’s just like, well, it’s just part of me.You don’t have to, like, I’m still a human . I still have these other parts about me can be talking about and focusing on doesn’t have to be a huge deal. So I love that. Thank you.
ruth: That’s awesome.
Colette: So how about you, ruth? I’d love to hear what your queer joy.
ruth: I mean, I’ll add watching Heartbreak High is a little high point for me too.
Kate: Yes. Yes.
ruth: But also, I made a Reel recently for my Instagram where I was just like, you know, briefly talking about how being someone who has like, come to terms with my sexuality, [00:04:00] like as an adult, there have been a lot of, what we like to call, like, you know, big life decisions that I’ve made.
Without that knowledge and just talking about how, I don’t know, it’s like, I’m still happy. Like there’s a lot of, probably a lot of different decisions that I could’ve made that would’ve made me happy to, but I’m happy in this life that I’ve chosen. And just talking to another friend who watched that video, and she mentioned that for her, it was a reminder to be gentle with herself as she’s also another person who came to terms with her sexuality as an adult.
But sometimes we feel like we should have made different decisions or like we would’ve made different decisions. I’m like, that’s perfectly possible that we would’ve made different decisions, but it’s also, I think, important to just, I don’t know, be gentle with ourselves. I think that’s a word that she used about the way that like we’ve come into recognizing these things about ourselves and that, you know, even recognizing that [00:05:00] yeah.
We maybe could have made different decisions and we would’ve been happy that way too. So I think that for me, it just was nice to hold each other in that way. That was nice for me.
Kate: I love that. That’s awesome. Having those conversations and the validation from one another, think is just really important and crucial.
Colette: I really agree. I think it, it can be, I think part of queer pain sometimes is realizing like, oh, how different life could be. And so it’s really nice to have those queer joy moments as well being like, oh no, but this I’m happy here still. Yeah, things could have been different and they could have been really good, but they’re really good here. And I’m happy with that. And I love that so much.
Ruth: Yeah.
Colette: Thank you for sharing that. I really don’t know much at all about you, you connected, I think through Kate and we love connecting with new people and we’re like, yes, let’s hear your story.
So I’m excited to get and get to know you as well as our [00:06:00] listeners. If you want to jump in into your queer in 60 seconds, your queer Mormon story, obviously not limited by time, but just to get an overview of ruth is and go from there.
ruth: Okay. I am a second generation Mexican American, born and raised in or Utah raised in the church. I feel like I did pretty much all of the typical like Mormon things and you know, married fairly young, had children like a little bit older than is typical, but, yeah, really at the top of this year, like January, just really came to terms with, being asexual.
I think that it’s something that had been kind of like bouncing around in my brain for probably like five or six years before that. But coming upon this book that I read that really just like put everything into place for me. And yeah, right now I am just, I’m still kind of in the throes of like figuring it all out.
And, for me right now, something that has been, [00:07:00] become sort of a project is like, I I’m an avid journaler. And so at this.
Colette: How Mormon of you.
ruth: Right, and so right now it’s been interesting to go through my old journals, from my youth time, like teenage years and seeing how all of these sort of like signs pointing to asexuality the whole time that I just like fully ignored because it didn’t fit into the life plan that I was supposed to have. So that’s kinda where I am now. So
Colette: I’m so curious by that, like what, sort of signs are you seeing from your younger years being like, oh, maybe this has been going on longer. This isn’t a sudden realization because, but I think that can be common for people that are queer and anywhere along that spectrum of being like, well, it wasn’t an option. So what sort of things, are making you better understand your sexuality?
ruth: I think part of it is. Realizing that these things that [00:08:00] I thought were just like, my weird quirks are actually just like my asexuality and reading through a lot of my journals through probably like junior and senior year, the most.
I just was having such a hard time with the idea of like, dating because I was like super good at like, I’m not gonna date before 16 kind of thing. Cuz I just like didn’t
Colette: Yeah. Why would anyone want to do that?
ruth: And then all of a sudden, like when I turned 16, I felt like everybody was like, well, why aren’t you dating? And I was like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know how to, you just turned 16, magically know how to do that. No, I don’t know. And so I think a lot of it for me, I was able to kind of talk myself out of thinking anything different than I just didn’t know what I was doing because I was, you know, this little like innocent Mormon teen, that reading back now it’s like, I’ll all, I literally like wrote out things that I just was like, I don’t understand how to do this. Like, why is this so hard? It seems like everybody else [00:09:00] has some kind of handle on it that I just don’t have. And I don’t understand why. So yeah. It’s just been kind of these little things or I don’t know, reading, so reading the book Ace by Angela Chen was really important for me.
And understanding the way that other people experience asexuality and like how so many of the things that I have experienced in my life like that. It all makes sense now understanding that that for a long time, I was like very touch averse to people that I wasn’t like. I don’t know. It was a vibe, like if I didn’t get a cool vibe, like you’re not a threat to me kind of situation. I was like, please don’t touch me. And even with friends who were boys or even boys that I had crushes on, technically, it’s funny now to look at that. Cause I’m like, I really just like, if they, if a boy was nice to me, I was like, oh, I like you.
But it just was like, I don’t know. But even boys that I was friends with, if they ever touched me and it felt like it was romantic in nature or like sexual in nature, I was like, please, [00:10:00] it, I, I had a physical reaction to being touched by people in that way. And yeah. So it’s just, and it’s also interesting because for a minute it was hard for me to reconcile exactly that I was asexual. I think probably in like 2015 or 2016, there was a YouTuber that I watched who mentioned in a video demisexuality and like vaguely referenced it as you weren’t interested in sexual contact with someone, unless you had an emotional bond with someone. And at that point I was married and I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess that makes sense. I feel like that’s probably my experience, but I didn’t ever really think more about it. And, you know, coming to the realization that, you know, demisexuality falls under the asexual spectrum and that asexuality is just not experiencing or very rarely experiencing sexual attraction.
I feel like understanding it as sexual attraction and just not wanting to have sex with somebody that’s like [00:11:00] totally different. And for me, understanding that part was like, oh, I am asexual. It’s not just demisexual, I am asexual because I just don’t experience sexual attraction towards anyone. I never have in my whole life.
And, you know, being a married person and realizing that after like eight years of a marriage, I was like, oh no, um, because, and, and that’s the thing, I feel like I had kind of been playing with the idea of certain things. Like I remember after I had heard that, that blogger talk about it, I brought it up to my partner and Cameron and thought, oh yeah, that kind of seems like it might be me.
And he was like, oh yeah, cool. But would, I neither of us, ever really thought about it again, but it, it was something that, I feel like coming to the, coming to terms with actually, you know, understanding that I am asexual that No matter the deepness of this emotional bond that I have, like with Cameron, I still am not sexually attracted to him.
It [00:12:00] just, that’s just how it’s, you know, and we’ve had, he was the first person that I came out to and it was a long conversation. And I had asked him to read the book before we talked, because I wanted us to have, you know, a base for understanding the language and all that stuff. And, cause like I, you know, I was really worried.
Colette: Of course, that’s such a vulnerable thing to come out to someone, especially your partner.
ruth: Yeah. Was like,
Colette: What does this mean? And how does this impact? Not just me, but us?
ruth: Mm-hmm, Because it’s one of those things that like, I, the reason why I think like the book Ace is so important and why people should read it regardless of their understanding of asexuality or whether they feel like they fall under the umbrella is because it, it really lays out so many of the different facets of what we kind of mesh mash into the idea of like, love or romantic [00:13:00] love that we all, I think that to an extent, we all have this understanding of what that is, but we don’t ever really talk about, or even recognize that there are so many different pieces of it and that we all are gonna identify like differently on that spectrum of things. And so knowing that for some people, it is important to be desired sexually in that way.
That was kind of where my main fear was coming from that I literally can’t do that. And, you know, I think I’m very fortunate to, have him and that, I think there’s more reasons than just that, I feel lucky sort of, but I also feel like there are things about ourselves that, we didn’t know then when we first met and when we decided to get married that like still work for us now. And that just ended up being one of those things that, it didn’t matter to him. So, but I also recognize that that could have gone very differently, but, I, I don’t know.
That’s just one of those things that like realizing these [00:14:00] kinds of things, this point in my life was kind of scary, but it’s been like really important and it’s been, I don’t know. I think that, knowing these things about myself and also being, not just like accepting of them, but finding love for those things about myself has really, I just think completely changed my outlook on things and opened me up as a person when I already thought, I was like a pretty open person, but it just, I don’t have any of those like little hangups about myself that I used to have thinking that, there’s something wrong with me because I’m a feminist and I’m like, I’m, you know, a sex positive person, but like, how does that make sense when, I just don’t care about it. You know, that, that was one of those things that like, I, that was also like really important to read in the book, Ace that so much of this feminist revolution that has come on with this, like most recent wave is all about sex positivity and, people being allowed to have, you know, as much [00:15:00] sex as they want to, but rarely do we ever talk about like none being an option.
And I think that for me, for a long time, that was, something that sort of was always digging at me that I feel like I’m a sex positive person, but, I don’t know. I just didn’t, I didn’t have the context for understanding that you can still be a sex positive person without sex being part of your experience.
Kate: Yeah, I think that’s a really important point. And I think that I have, I’ve had this question since you started talking about, we have a, there’s a tendency people to talk about asexuality and infantalize it as if you’re you haven’t you almost like, well, you haven’t gone through adolescence yet.
Right? So there’s this, this really big prejudice, for asexuality that it is like an [00:16:00] underdeveloped sexuality. And I think it’s really important what you’re talking about as far as terms of sex positive stuff and all of that, like this. That is not what’s happening. Maybe you can talk about how to unpack that a little bit, or if you felt that if you’ve seen that from other people and how you kind of talk about that.
ruth: Yeah. I definitely think that I think because I came to all these conclusions about myself after being married, people never really had the chance to tell me, well, you just haven’t met the right person kind of thing, but that is something that people hear a lot. And even on my Instagram page where I’m sharing a lot about like my asexual experience, I just keep having people say things like it’s a psychological problem and that, you know, sex is such a natural thing that to, to not have that be part of your life there, like you’re ill.
So it’s either that like you’re immature or that you’re sick. And I think that it’s, I don’t know. It’s like, [00:17:00] I, I don’t fight with people on the internet about that stuff, because I know that if they think that there’s nothing I can do to change it. But yeah, it’s just one of those things that it’s, I don’t, I don’t know how to explain to somebody that like, just because this isn’t your experience doesn’t mean that it’s not real. I don’t know how to tell you that especially, and I think that is one thing that weighed on me a lot growing up and like, even as a married person before coming to these conclusions, was that, especially within the church, it’s framed as sex is this very like sacred thing.
And that it is God’s plan for you to do this and to have children and all these things. And we’re like, I think there’s still room for it to be framed in that way. It definitely made it pretty, it felt impossible to think of sex as something that I could just choose not to. Because it’s, you know, whether it’s in society or in a church frame of things, it’s always this, like, [00:18:00] it’s the, it’s, it’s the most natural thing, but to me it’s not.
And I just, I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, I, I don’t know how to explain to someone that that is possible and that there’s nothing wrong with me other than to just exist.
Kate: Yeah. And I think that we have a tendency to pathologize people and say, oh, this, there is some sort something wrong or disorder or some, some sort of mental thing. We have this tendency without ever recognizing that all of those things, somebody else is just like decided is a pathology, is a disorder. And all those things, that we have a, a society have created these, terms and categories that, you know, all queer people have fit into these boxes at some point.
And so to detach from this [00:19:00] idea that there’s a pathology and actually listen to somebody’s lived experience is really the point here what’s really worthwhile is listening to actually how someone experiences asexuality. And I think asexuality is one of those branches. One of those flags of the queer spectrum that has so many, so many flags underneath it. The trans flag certainly has a lot, asexuality, I think may have just as many, there’s so many ways to be asexual.
Maybe you can talk a little bit about that, especially I haven’t read Ace, but I’m sure Ace probably goes into a lot of those different.
ruth: it does and I think that’s what’s really special about that book in particular is because Angela Chen is an asexual person and she also interviewed a lot of different asexuals about their personal experiences. Um, yeah, I mean, I don’t, I don’t know that I could list off all of the [00:20:00] like smaller sections under the
Kate: Yeah, no way. There’s no way.
ruth: but yeah, it definitely like it’s all, you know, all comes back to you either don’t experience sexual attraction or you only experience sexual attraction in very specific like situations. So, you know, it’s something that I feel like is more widely known. Like demisexuality it is that like, you have to have established a very like deep, emotional bond with someone before you can feel those things.
And there’s just a million different ways to identify with that. And I, I don’t know. I just think, I wish that more people knew that and would have access to that. Like, I think that, you know, now more than I’ve seen ever, I think there’s a lot of asexual content creators that are doing a lot to educate people and, you know, normalize these different ways of, I don’t know of interacting with that part of yourself that it’s just like, there it’s so much more than [00:21:00] just like, whether, you know, like what kind of person you’re attracted to, but also like the way that you experience that attraction. And I really just think that it would be that it’s beneficial to everybody to know more about that, because I think whether you identify as like a cis hetero person, there’s still so many more things like under that, that you could be more specific about.
And I think that that not only would help you find what you’re looking for, if you’re looking for it, but also manage those relationships in a different way. Because if, you know, like it’s kind of like knowing your love language, but in a way more specific way that it’s like, if you know what it is that you respond to, then you’re able to either find someone who can provide that for you or, you know, build that up in your relationship.
I think there’s just so much to it that, that we rarely think about. And I think that like the spectrum of asexuality is just a really, [00:22:00] um, it’s a big window into what that looks like. I think it’s something that people kind of make fun of all of the different, like facets of asexuality that there are, because there are, they get so specific.
But I think that there’s only, I don’t know, maybe if it really doesn’t matter to you that much. Sure. But I think knowing at least, you know that for yourself, you know, like what it is that that you like or don’t like, or respond to or don’t respond to. It just, I just think that for my relationship in particular, being able to talk about these things openly has made a huge difference.
Like before we just didn’t talk about it at. Because it was, I don’t know, like a growing up, like never speaking about the S word. It just was like, you don’t talk about it. You don’t think about it. You don’t, you know, like I just was like, oh, and then you get married and they’re like, so how are things going?
And I’m like, I don’t know. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m… we did a lot of Googling when we first [00:23:00] got married. I was like, I don’t understand any of this, but it’s also just interesting, to realize so many of the things that we were trying to figure out, like when we first got married, makes so much more sense now, knowing this piece. Maybe this is gonna be TMI, but I had a real bout of like vaginitis up until, birthing my first child, which is, you know, after that, I didn’t just like blown light open. So, but, not understanding like what the issue was, cause reading about it. It was like, oh, it’s like, it can be like, just in your mind, like maybe you’re nervous, maybe this, like we try all these different things and it just like, nothing was changing and I was like, I don’t, I don’t know.
Is it really just to the point where I was like, obviously there’s something wrong with me. And I kind of like, I don’t know, because I tried not to think about it too often. I don’t feel like it was something that was like really bringing me down. But when it came to trying to understand our relationship in that way, I definitely was like, I don’t know, [00:24:00] something’s off, something’s wrong with me. And I don’t know what it is. And like, I just feel bad that I’ve put him in this situation that it’s like, I’m just this person that, you know, never initiates. And half the time I’m like, oh, but then, you know, then I’m gonna have to put my clothes all back on.
And like, I just don’t want, like, it’s fine. It just was one of those things that, yeah, that talking to other people about like their relationship to sex was so confusing to me. I was like, I don’t understand when people are like, oh, but it’s fun.
I’m like, is it I’d rather go on a bike ride or something like, I’m like, that’s fun to me. And this is just kind of like happening, I guess. I’m like I don’t know that I would say it’s fun. And that’s still, anytime I’m watching some show where people are, you know, they just had sex or whatever.
And like, well, that was fun. I’m like, I don’t understand that. I don’t get it. I’m like, is it fun? Just seems like a lot of work for whatever. I dunno. But yeah. I don’t know. Just like, that was another thing too, that like, when you mentioned like the infantilization [00:25:00] even, that was one thing that growing up, because I didn’t relate to these things in the same way that most people do.
I was always the like, oh, just like the sweet, innocent one, like, oh, she just is she doesn’t know. She’s just so innocent. She’s the Bishop’s daughter, like blah, blah, blah. And I was like, whatever, I don’t understand why you guys are saying that. But yeah, that, even as it.
Kate: That’s a hard thing too, because I think that our expectations around gender and, yeah, people who are assigned female home birth versus people who are assigned male at birth experience asexuality and the social expectations very differently.
ruth: Yeah.
Kate: And I think that what you’re getting at is a very AFAB experience of this is you’re, you’re not supposed to want it and, And, all of that.
ruth: Yeah. I feel like that part is huge. And I feel like it’s a big reason why I didn’t come to this realization earlier than I did was because it, in the confines of like purity culture and gender roles, especially within the church that it’s like,[00:26:00] girls are supposed to be like very demure and very modest.
And because I was like, Ew, don’t look at me. Don’t talk to me. It was like, I am just like very holy and I don’t know what’s wrong with the rest of you. But yeah, that, I don’t know. But for a long time, I don’t know, even in like elementary school or I was always the one who just like, just didn’t know, like you just don’t know, like, it’s fine.
But especially in high school, when people would talk about things and I was like, no, what? They were just like, I forget, you’re the Bishop’s daughter. I can’t talk about that around you. And I was like, I mean you can, but I just don’t understand what you’re talking about.
Kate: Yeah. And that been really helpful to have the language of being like, you can talk about it. I’m just asexual. Right? Like that might have been… I imagine it would’ve made a huge difference.
ruth: Yeah. Well, especially, you know, becoming an adult and having friends talking about all these things and their experiences. And I just I always kind of just like inside would freeze up cuz I was like, I don’t know how to relate to this [00:27:00] conversation. And I was always afraid of, because I feel like I always had questions that I wanted to ask people just to know more about their experience if they wanted to share. But I also felt like because of my lack of experience, the way it, the way that they experience it, I was always afraid of my questions coming off as like judgmental,
Kate: Mm-hmm
ruth: because I was like, I don’t know how to ask this in a way that’s not gonna seem like I’m judging you for, you know, being open. This specific thing or just talking about sex in general? Cause I was always just like, I don’t understand. If I say like, you know, why don’t you like condoms kind of thing it always, you know, it’s like, and I think that being in an area where it’s predominantly Mormon and I think that like, we all kind of have these internalized purity, culture wounds, you know, that it’s like, even as married people, it’s sometimes a hard thing to come to terms with that.
Sometimes I felt like asking questions [00:28:00] that to me felt like just, you know, trying to understand I could easily come off as like I’m judging you for what you’re doing or talking about kind of thing. And I just was like, I’m just gonna sit here and be quiet. And like, I don’t know. I feel like I got pretty good at throwing in a joke. So people are like, she gets it kind of thing, but I’m like, I don’t though. I’m like, I just have learned what to say at this point. So, so then nobody asked me more questions, but
Colette: I’m really intrigued by this idea though. I, I feel like a lot of queer people, People sexualize queer people, as soon as you come out, becomes, oh, what are you doing in the bedroom when it’s like, this is just part of me and my orientation. It’s not just a sexual attraction. And I feel like that’s probably even more so for when someone comes out as asexual even has sex in the name, right? And I’d just be curious if you can kind of talk about that experience of, okay. When I come out, [00:29:00] suddenly the focus is on when that’s not what I wanna talk about like or just anything you can kind of share about that experience.
ruth: Yeah. I think for the most part, cuz I’ve answered some questions from people who were like, you know, wanting to know to know more about me and how I’m faring in this life kind of thing. And then there were people who were asking, cause they were like, make it make sense. And I was like go away because yeah, I think it is a hundred percent like what you said. Being queer in any way is automatically, you know, relegated to the only thing people wanna know is like how, what are you doing?
You know, or what, you know, what are you not doing? And, and my experience, uh, actually had someone who. It was like, sort of closer to us that was like talking to one of our friends that was like, oh, so you saw that ruth came out as asexual. That is just so dumb to me. It doesn’t even make any sense. Like, she’s had two children, obviously she’s [00:30:00] had sex. How could she possibly be asexual?
And I’m like, boom, you don’t know anything about anything, read a book. Like, I’m not gonna tell you anything, but you know, I’ve had conversations with other people that it’s like, I don’t know for me. I think my hangup, if I have, it is always like, I don’t only give more information than Cameron is comfortable with me sharing with other people, because for me, my relationship to sex is so I just don’t really have one to it for the most part, like, I guess I do, but it just it doesn’t matter to me that much. So if the right person is asking with the right intentions, like it doesn’t bother me, but I also know that can be, it’s like I wanna be open about things so people can understand that like an asexual person can still be part of a relationship that involves sex, you know, but it’s always dependent on that person.
There’s [00:31:00] no one way to be asexual. So it’s like, I wanna share to normalize that. But at the same time, it’s like does sharing in that way, just further that response from people that knowing what your sexual orientation is or how you identify in those different ways, like, does that, you know, perpetuate the idea that people need to know what’s going on there when really it’s none of anybody’s business, but I don’t know.
It’s just, I feel like it’s like a tricky line to walk because it’s like, yes, I do wanna normalize my experience, but at the same time, it’s like, why do I have to tell you everything in order for you to just accept that this is my life. Like, I don’t know. It’s tricky.
Kate: Yeah, you have to navigate privacy. I think that queer people have been forced to, to give up so much of their privacy, so much of our privacy, and we get to reclaim as much of that as we want. That’s like, I’m a big [00:32:00] advocate for that. But something that you’re touching on that I think is interesting I don’t think we’ve really covered it very much in any of our episodes is this difference between sexual orientation and romantic orientation and how you relate to both because there are aro people too. So, um, and I don’t know if they talk about that in, in Ace or not, but,
ruth: A little bit, I don’t know that she goes into it a ton,
Kate: but,
ruth: a little.
Kate: there’s definitely the, what you’re talking about to me sounds very much like, you know, your sexual orientation and, you know, your romantic orientation as two different things. And you know, who you’re romantically, attracted to.
ruth: Yeah. And that’s another thing too, is that I haven’t talked about it a ton, but I also identify like on the, aromantic spectrum, I would call myself demiromantic because Cameron is the only person that I’ve ever really been able to cultivate those feelings for. and I tried a lot, you know, so, I think that’s [00:33:00] another thing that’s interesting that that again, like what you said that if more people understood that, like there can be differences that feel pretty wide, like a gap sometimes between your romantic orientation and your sexual orientation. That’s also a thing and that’s also okay.
Kate: Yes. Yes. For sure. absolutely people need to know that they might not be romantically attracted to the same people that they are sexually attracted to. I think that is something that we do not talk about or discuss.
ruth: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that just I just want to blow this door wide open for more people to understand that, you know, a mono normativity and like heterosexual normativity and even like compulsory sexuality. They’re all things that affect all of us, regardless of how we identify. And that’s why I just like to literally anybody, I’m just like, please read Ace.
It’s just like this, this opening of that door. And that [00:34:00] the further you go down that rabbit hole, I feel like the more that we really know about ourselves and we can stop feeling wrong or guilty for not aligning with this like one idea of how everything, how everybody’s supposed to do it.
And I don’t know. I think for me, it has really opened up not only acceptance of myself and for myself, but for literally anybody else, who’s doing something different than what I’m doing, because I’m like, I don’t know your experience, but what, whatever works for you? Like, let it work for you. It does not bother me. Does not affect me. Like, do you.
Kate: Yeah, we’ve talked a little bit about compulsory heterosexuality. But maybe you can give just a brief background about compulsory sexuality.
ruth: Yeah. I mean, compulsory sexuality is the idea that like, I don’t know, kind of like I touched on before that, like sex is only natural. Like everybody has, you know, has those compulsions towards sexual activity and it’s just not true. And that if [00:35:00] we lived in a society that had an awareness of that, I feel like so many people would not only feel freer to do whatever they’re doing, but not feel the, the pressure of conforming again, to that idea. It’s just interesting even understanding that there are people who, I don’t know, it’s still like hard for me to wrap my brain around people, seeing other people and being like sex. Like that just doesn’t make sense to me,
Kate: It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me either, but also all of us are on the ace spectrum. So
Colette: Yeah, we both identify as demi. So
Kate: Yeah. I just learned a new one too. Sapio uh, Sapio
Colette: Sapiosexual? Mm-hmm
Kate: I was like, oh, this is exciting. Exciting, and new. So there’s constantly new asexuality stuff. I’m learning.
ruth: yeah. Yeah. And it’s just, I don’t know. That’s the thing, I feel like most of society [00:36:00] is framed in this way that like, especially now where it seems more like sex driven that I think it just leaves so much room for. Anybody who doesn’t identify with like that version of things to feel like something’s wrong with them.
And I also feel like there’s plenty of like allosexual people who probably feel like something’s off with them because they don’t identify with this. Like very, I don’t know, sex, saturated media, like representation of the way that things are like watching Riverdale. Like, I’m just like, I’m sorry, are any of these people real? Like, why are we doing this? I guess what I would want people to know the most about compulsory sexuality is that like sex is not natural to everyone. And that the idea that it is is it’s just, it’s not real. It’s just not.
Kate: Yeah. You [00:37:00] a podcast where you came out with your parents, like on the air. I listened to this. It was like, this is like the brave I heard. How did that go over? Can you like, give like a brief overview of that and how it, it like worked out.
ruth: Yeah. I mean, I was like, be nervous beforehand. Like I just like called them and I was like, Hey, will you come over and report a record a podcast with me? And they were like, okay. But, so they didn’t know anything about it beforehand. I just like started talking, but I was nervous, but I also have like talked to my parents a lot.
Especially over the last, like two years about a lot of things that I’ve been going through, whether it’s like church stuff or my sexuality or whatever, I hadn’t really talked to them tons about the asexual piece, but I also Knew, like I knew in the back of my head that it probably was like, not gonna be that big a deal, but yes, because my parents love me and, you know, I’ve, but also [00:38:00] I feel like it’s, to me, it felt easier to come out to certain people as a sexual, because it sort of falls in, in line enough with like church teachings that like, you know, and like, maybe I’m just like, not thinking about enough that people are like asexual.
That’s so weird. But in my mind it felt like easier coming out as that identity than it probably is for others. And with my parents in particular, it wasn’t so much that I thought that I don’t know. I, I wasn’t really worried about them having. Adverse reactions as much as maybe them being like, well, what are you talking about?
But I mean, it went well. I feel like they listened very well and were curious in like respectful ways. For the most part, there are some things that like, you know, that they said that I was [00:39:00] like, yeah. I mean, that was like, you know, a little bit invalidating to have this idea that like, yeah.
But everybody’s experience is different. And I understand, I think, I feel like for some people it just is the notion to like wanna label yourself just feels so like, why would you do that? Like, why can’t you just exist? Like, why do you have to put a label on it? And while I understand, like that point of view, if you, as a queer person, don’t wanna put a label on yourself, that is your prerogative.
But a lot of the time, when non queer people act as though we shouldn’t label ourselves, that to me is very invalidating because it’s the whole reason that we need the label is because society as a whole does not recognize us. And so, you know, I’ve had people kind of be like, well, why, why is it so important to you to, be asexual?
And I’m like, because I am asexual and I, for the longest time had no reference point for understanding, like the way that I am. [00:40:00] And so. Like, it only makes sense to me to like, put that label on myself because not only has it given me a way to like, understand the way that I am and not feel like there’s something wrong with me, but also to maybe like pave the way for somebody else who is not, you know, who doesn’t have the language, like I didn’t have the language.
And so sometimes to have the idea of like, well, yeah, well everyone’s experience is different. I’m like, of course it is, but rarely is it ever recognized that like everyone’s experience is different and like just how different it is. Like if you can deviate from the norm in certain ways, but only in the ways that are acceptable to. The default or whatever. And I don’t feel like any deviation from the default is ever really that acceptable to people. It just depends on like what they’re willing to like make allowances for. And so if anything, like there was maybe that, but for the most part, I think it went, it went really [00:41:00] well. I feel like, um, one thing that maybe I would’ve changed as I feel like I, at the time, um, didn’t really have an understanding of like how, um, being asexual in the world that I grew up in really affected me.
Like I told my parents, like, I feel like for the most part, like I haven’t really been affected negatively by being asexual. Um, but like reading back through all my journals, like I was like JK. I went through a lot of hardship and just thought that like, didn’t put two and two together, you know? And it wasn’t really, even until I was like reading back through my journals, that I was like, oh yeah, there was like this constant like idea in my head that I just like, wasn’t trying hard enough.
And that in order to like, be the person that like God wanted me to be, I had to like try harder. And [00:42:00] that is like very damaging, especially in, in like the, the context of like Mormonism and then like the idea of like constantly working to perfect yourself, to like, be worthy of this afterlife that is just like everything that you want.
And so in a lot of ways, like, I don’t know. I just, I felt like I had this very sad understanding like of myself and that in order to be the most perfect version of myself, I needed to be different. And I didn’t know how to do that. So yeah. I mean, I think that is probably the one thing that I would change about telling them that is that I, cause I was just like, yeah, it just like doesn’t really change anything.
It didn’t really affect me that much. It just like helps to know that this is a thing and where like, that is true, that it helps to know. I, I don’t think that I really [00:43:00] had understood exactly how, um, the environment that I was in was a big part of like the reason why I didn’t come to this like conclusion earlier in my life.
And so, and I feel like that’s hard, but, um, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, my parents were very loving and like accepting of everything I had to tell them and like, that’s all I could ask for. So
Kate: Yeah, that’s great. The episode is great too. I really like the episode. I recommend it. we’ll put your Instagram accounts on linked to this because you have another Instagram account, but you have another Instagram account that it focuses on asexuality and your process of going through all of this and discovering these things for yourself.
And I think that is really cool. And especially for people who identify as ace, I think would really, would be, that will be really helpful for people.
ruth: [00:44:00] Well, thank you. I mean, it’s like, Yeah. I mean, I, to be like, I feel like now, you know, I might as well just put it out there. because I, I mean, it’s just like wild because literally like two weeks ago I had like 80 followers and now I have almost a thousand,
Colette: Wow.
ruth: just cause like one video went viral. But, but I don’t know where it was like scary a little bit, cuz I feel like I started this like different space for me to kind of like have a place to like work it out with people who were willing to hear about it and who I trusted.
I think that, I don’t know, I’m hoping that it can be a place for people to relate in all these different ways that I’ve been talking about. Cause I think even like some of the people that followed in the beginning, I don’t know that they necessarily. Identify under the asexual spectrum. And it was interesting to see people cause I’m mostly doing like spoken word poetry.
It’s interesting to see people talk about like how they relate to the things[00:45:00] not being asexual or how they’re interpreting it. Because I think that a lot of the feelings that I had growing up, um, are feelings that a lot of people have. It’s just like for different reasons, you know? So I think that like what I would love for like this project to, um, I love that it has found like an asexual community, like all these asexual sort following me now, which I think is fun, but I also would love for it to, um, reach other people too, who either are wanting to learn more about it or, you know, whatever it is.
I just think that there’s so much that we can learn from each other when it comes to these different ways that like we exist in the world and that it’s okay to have these like very specific ways to like feel comfortable or. Just like, do what you’re doing, like go about your life and that it’s not weird and that you shouldn’t necessarily have to like explain it to anybody.
Like, I don’t know. I just, I really would love for it to be a place where people can [00:46:00] come and understand those different things. Like, I feel like my journey, um, going back through all those journals has kind of put a lot of things into perspective. Like a, like being a Mexican in like a white ward growing up.
Like, I don’t think I ever really thought about it that specifically when it was happening, but I look back now and like, I think a lot of it’s just so interesting, like the intersection of like purity culture and respectability politics and asexuality, like how they all kind of serve to like. I don’t know, keep me in this box from like, understanding that I am asexual, you know, that it’s just like all these things that it was like, well, you have to be the good one because dad’s a Bishop and he’s brown and this is a white ward and people already have issues with that. That like, I [00:47:00] can’t be weird. I can’t be different than what people are expecting me to be. Like, I have to, you know, walk the line that, you know, that around me seems to like, expect from me kind of thing. And that I, I internalized those expectations so much that it’s like kind of sad to like read back a lot of my journal entries that I would write about all these, like these different thoughts that I was having.
And even like, doubts that I was having about myself or some of like the things that I was learning in church. And I would like turn around, like on a dime and. Say, but, but this, and, but that, like, I just need to have more faith. I just need to pray more. I just need to like this and that, like anything that like didn’t make sense to me.
I was really good at like gaslighting myself out of thinking about it too much. And like, that’s painful to read, like I have like made myself cry a lot in the last few months cuz I’m just like, I, nobody had to like be behind me [00:48:00] telling me to do things differently because I was doing it to myself. And that is, I don’t know if like, if anything that’s probably what I would change is to like, if I could go back and like tell little ruth, just like be easier on yourself because it, and it’s, it’s, it’s just wild to like, you know, even at like 10, 11 years old, like reading these journals and like constantly like telling myself like, well you just need to be better kind of thing.
Like having this obsession with like. Understanding that whatever it was that was going on with me was not the norm and that I needed to work that much harder. And it just is sad, but yeah, I don’t know. It’s been, it’s been interesting. And I feel like if anything, that’s what I would like to offer, like the ace community or people who are learning about it is that so often, like I have found a lot of like ace content that has been [00:49:00] very helpful, but it’s rare to find any that, um, has any, has like touching any like, kind of like religious experience or perspective, because I think, I mean, I don’t know why that is, but I also feel like white asexuals get seen more often.
So it’s like being a person of color. And also, somebody who was like raised interior culture, I feel like. I don’t know, like my experience is, I mean, obviously like very specific to me, but it feels very specific even within the ace community that it’s like, I don’t see that a lot. So I’m just trying to create some representation, cuz
Kate: Yeah. That’s, that’s really interesting because you have, I liked that you pointed out the respectability politics the culture and how all of these things intersect because. It seems to me [00:50:00] we often within Mormonism, especially, and purity culture, think of women asexual beings.
That of course you’re asexual because women are asexual. And then to add on top of that, the respectability politics of, of course, you’re going to do this because you are a respectable, um, Bishop brown person, whatever. And so the asexuality almost seems to be expected, but it’s a label of who you actually are to try to unpack those, those things and try to say like, this is what everybody wants me to be or think about or exper how I should experience sex or experience my religion or experience.
Becoming in a sense like within Mormonism, there is an expected assimilation that [00:51:00] that to then have to actually like confront that label of who you are as an asexual person is different. Those two things are very separate and that would be confusing. I would
ruth: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s tricky. And like, I don’t know. I think that, I dunno, it’s hard because I, I mean, I don’t identify with the grand majority of like church teachings anymore. I don’t attend church or anything like that and it’s, I don’t hate it or anything. And I think that, like, that’s another tricky, like line to toe when I’m sharing things on, on social medias. I’m like, I don’t like to use the hashtag ex Mormon.
Cause I feel like I find some really wild things there and I don’t necessarily like fit. I don’t, I don’t relate to that, but, um, it’s just one of those things where it’s like, I wanna be able to talk about it and hopefully not have people feel threatened by like, you know, not like, like I’m not trying to threaten anyone’s like [00:52:00] spirituality or their relationship to religiosity or whatever it is.
Um, but it, it it’s like hard for me to, uh, talk about it in a way that like doesn’t, I don’t know. It’s, it’s just very, it’s all very complicated. And I wanna be able to like, say what I wanna say without people projecting more onto it than it is, or, um, just feeling attacked by it cuz I’m like, it just is what it is like.
It is my experience and that a lot of it, um, Like, I don’t know, being raised in the church and, you know, purity culture, like I just was like fully not prepared for, um, I don’t know what we like to call adult life, like married life. Like, and I, and I think that that’s true for a lot of people. Like, I don’t think I’m alone in that, but I think that from like my experience, like specifically, I [00:53:00] just was like, when does this start to make sense?
Because it doesn’t and, you know, feeling like, um, I don’t know, like, well, if I just continue to like, hit these milestones, like I’m supposed to, at some point it’s gonna make sense. Right. And it just, it never did. And so I just wish that, like, I don’t know. I hope that as a community, that, that we’re all working harder to be more open to different ideas and understanding different experiences.
Because I think that that can only. Help and keep people from feeling like so isolated in the ways that, um, I dunno that we’re expected to be, you know, A, B and C, and if you don’t fall under those things, then it’s just like, I don’t know, for me, it was always just like this internal battle of like, I am not good enough.
Colette: I was gonna [00:54:00] change topics a little bit. You mentioned at the very beginning of your intro, that you’re a second generation Mexican American, and we’ve talked a little bit about the intersectionality of not being white and being ace. I was just wondering if you wanted to comment or talk about the, that intersectionality of your experience of being Mexican American and how that plays into your identity and experience of the world. Since we believe intersectionality matters here.
ruth: Thank you. Yeah. Um, I think it’s kind of, um, it’s very different for me. I feel like, because I think that, I don’t know. I think my parents will admit to this too, that they were very much like about the assimilation life. And, um, I think that someone who grew up in a household that wasn’t quite so fixed on like assimilating, but still part of the church, um, would have a different perspective on it.
But my per like, from my experience, like I, um, [00:55:00] you know, went to schools that had, um, some. Like, depending on which schools, like there were more Latinx people, Latinx kids that I went to school with and it sucked cuz I I’ve had to understand and really interrogate a lot of like my own internalized racism.
Um, because it was just something that like, I didn’t think twice about, because it was like the way that my parents talked about people like, um, cuz the grand majority of like people that I have met, um, here who are also Latinx that, um, they are Catholic and you know, whether they like really identify with Catholicism or not, there is that like, um, background.
And I feel like it’s like this like interesting, uh, collision of like, know, the [00:56:00] assimilation and the respectability politics, but then also this like. I don’t know idea that like it’s Catholicism, that’s like the horror of the earth. Right. And so I feel like it’s like almost this like double down version.
Not that it is, but that is what has been said. Um, but that, like, not only that, it’s almost, I feel like that feeds a lot into the internalized racism that like I have and that my parents had, and that it was like, if you were, um, Latinx in our community and weren’t Mormon that it was almost like they were beneath us, like they were, um, I don’t know.
It’s, it’s just interesting. Cause like all of these like cultural things, there’s a lot of cultural things that like, I never really had a chance to take part in because my parents saw it as like lower, like it’s only as an adult. Learning more about Mor and like all these different, you know, uh, holidays that [00:57:00] Catholicism kind of like piggybacked on that are actually indigenous practices.
Um, that my parents were always kind of like, we don’t do that cuz it’s a Catholic tradition, which is funny because we celebrate Dia de Muertos, which is also like falls under that same thing. It’s like a Catholic tradition, but I’m like, but I, I literally never thought twice about like, oh, we don’t celebrate these Catholic traditions, but we do celebrate this one.
Um, and it’s just because like that’s what my dad was raised celebrating. Um, but it’s just been interesting cuz I think that a lot of my feelings about other Latinx people growing up, it definitely was like, um, I have these internalized ideas of like who they were versus who I was, and that I didn’t fit into that and where it was painful to not fit into those spaces.
I also had this sort of like, uh, you know, knee jerk reaction of like, well, [00:58:00] but it’s just because like I’m superior kind of thing, which was like not great. And to see kind of like, you know, kids being, kids, teenagers, being teenagers, like making out in the hallways and all this stuff. Like, I feel like it’s so much easier when you have that internalized racism to think that that’s because like, oh, because they’re Mexican or, I mean that, I grew up hearing a lot, like, oh, I hate Mexicans.
And then I’d be like, hello. And I’d be like, oh, but not you though, because, well, you know, I just like, and it, I never felt great about that, but it just, it was one of those things that like, I couldn’t reconcile, like why I was not like them, cuz I knew I wasn’t, but. I didn’t know the reasons why for a long time.
And I think that a lot of this, like, because it just came naturally to me to like, be the purity culture poster girl that, um, that I leaned pretty hard into it. And like, in that respect that it was like, well, [00:59:00] I’m not like them because I’m better. And I just, I mean, I think that’s terrible. And, um, yeah, I mean, if I could go back and change it, I would.
And I think that, I don’t know. There’s just so many things about that really intersect when it comes to like my experience that way and like the church. And that’s why I know the reason, like why it feels hard, cuz I’m just like, I probably could have been a better friend to a lot of people. If I hadn’t had that idea about myself, that I was better because of this.
Kate: but that’s, assimilation. That is, that’s totally the, the product of a church wanting whiteness. Um, and I think that. It’s always really interesting to me, how sexuality, gender, and race within the [01:00:00] United States. Um, they, they all play a role together that that sexuality and gender are different within white hierarchy understanding of the white hierarchy that and gender are different for other races. And so then have to start unpacking all of those things that come with that over time, that we’ve never really unpacked before. And I think that, um, religion of a different color, the book by Paul Reeve does a really good job.
Showing how polygamy is seen Mormons, who practice polygamy. We’re seen as a different race because, um, of their sexual practices. And we really have to be mindful the ways that these things all interact with one another. And [01:01:00] what you’re talking about that internalization a product of that, of wanting to be back within the United States, wanting to be white again, and, um, be seen as within the purity culture.
Um, so I don’t know. It’s really heartbreaking for me to hear you say that that was your experience that you, that you really internalize, that, that you’re seeing that in your journals, that if only I can do this better or whatnot, but, um, it’s also really cool to hear you say like, no, I’m not gonna do I, this isn’t what I’m going to.
Pass on to my children. We are not gonna be doing this anymore. Um, and it’s not just, we’re not gonna be doing Mormons We’re gonna be focusing on how to unpack and undo all of this.
ruth: Yeah, I’m really glad you’re saying that because I posted something last week that talked about, [01:02:00] um, like the hard binaries that exist in, um, white supremacy. And that I had a couple people being like, what does, like studies like sexuality have to do with white supremacy? And I’m like, wow, you have so much to learn, read a book.
Like, but it’s just one of those things that I think a lot of the time, like there are so many people who don’t understand, like, don’t really have any idea, like how it all intersects and how, um, you know, from my perspective, like white supremacy has like, kept so much from me and from so many people and that it’s like, I don’t know that queerness is at odds with white supremacy.
And I feel like people don’t understand that. And maybe it’s because of their relationship to queerness that they don’t understand that. But it is like, I don’t know, people don’t like to hear that, like, [01:03:00] these labels are political labels. They just are, because it’s like, if we, I don’t know, I had someone ask once, like, I don’t get the point of like pride parades.
Like if it’s supposed to be normal, like, why do you need to make so much noise about it? And I’m like, because like, it hasn’t been treated as though it’s a regular thing. And until it is like people are going to make noise about it. Like, I don’t know. I mean, it’s the same thing as people who don’t understand, like the use of labels in the first place, but I’m like to label yourself that way, like is a political act.
Kate: yeah.
ruth: and in order to be like doing the most in that political act, you have to understand the intersectionality and how it all plays in to white supremacy and the way that we’ve all been kept down and kept out of the communities that we should have access to.
Kate: And I think that, think after 2015, when the United States we [01:04:00] get marriage equality and we’re pushing further and further to make this normal if we aren’t doing that simultaneously with dismantling white supremacy, that’s also problematic. Like we can’t be just saying, we want this. We want to be normal and say, queerness is normal and then make it into a white thing, right? Or do it, do it, do it in, in some sort of heteronormative way that it. Palatable to the same folks who are, um, participating and upholding white supremacy.
ruth: Right. And I think like a huge part of like a big part of the reason, like why I wanna talk about my experience is that be like, from the outside, like, we look pretty hetero, you know, heteronormative, like there’s nothing queer about our relationship or our family. But, [01:05:00] um, one of the things that, like I learned about in the book Ace, um, is just like, and something that I really identified with was like my platonic relationships and like how, like the hierarchy is always that like romantic love takes the tiptop spot and everything else just falls to the wayside.
And that, like, I don’t know. I had friends who, you know, got married before I did. And like, it really hurt my feelings to hear like, um, we’re not gonna hang out as much because like I’m married now. And I’m basically like on an eternal date, so I don’t really need. What I get from you anymore. And I was like,
Colette: Yeah.
ruth: like, I’m like, I mean, I’m not married or anything, but that still seems pretty weird to me.
Like, why is that the thing that like, you get married and now we’re not friends anymore. And it was just interesting to me cuz this particular friend, like a couple years down the line, like even said to me was like, well, well I just like, I miss our friendship and I’m like, uh, hello. I literally reached out to you like a million times, but you just [01:06:00] didn’t want it.
And then got to this point where you understand that like this one person can’t be everything to you. I feel like it falls so well in line with, um, the idea of community that it’s like, it only, I don’t know. I feel like for the longest time, um, I know that I’ve taken a back burner in a lot of relationships to somebody’s like romantic relationship and like that’s their choice to make, but it didn’t hurt any less.
And I think that within my own relationship, like, as I’ve been through therapy in the last year, understanding that, like I always had this idea in the back of my mind that I’m like, I should only talk about like the things that are most important to me, like to Cameron, because we are married and that is our relationship.
And I always kind of had this, like this messaging either from like my family or church that it’s like your romantic relationship. Like your marriage is like the pinnacle of all things. It’s, what’s gonna make you whole it’s, what’s going to [01:07:00] complete you as a person. Like you can’t be complete as a person.
And I think that idea is like, still very like dangerously taught within the church that it’s like, even if you don’t get married here, there’s someone for you in heaven, whether that’s a totally relationship or not, you’re gonna be made whole in that way. Which like, I literally hate that idea because it’s like, why can’t we be whole just in ourselves?
And I think that someone who is like, a romantic asexual, like that’s one thing that like. Is a hard thing for people to swallow because they don’t understand like how I feel like so much of the time, like I had a comment the other day that was like, how could, like, if you’re asexual, do you just like, do you just get pleasure from nothing?
Like, are you just like a sad person? And I’m like, no, but I’m like, that’s, that’s because you’re operating off of this idea that like sex is the most amazing thing that could ever happen to a person. Romantic love is the most amazing thing that could ever happen to a person. It’s the most, it’s the most important relationship that you could possibly have, but it’s not. And like [01:08:00] maybe for some people it is, and that’s fine, but like, it’s like, I like cherish my relationship with Cameron so much. But I also know that like, he cannot be everything to me. And I think, especially when we first, um, met, we were 17 that I had this like, idea that I was like, I need to be able to hold everything for him.
I need to be able to hold space for every possible thing that he could possibly need. And it was exhausting, especially because, um, at the time he was struggling a lot with like depression and anxiety and his family was not super supportive that it was like, and my family was not supportive. They did not want us to be together.
Um, that it was just like, we were each other’s everything. And as much as that, like, I don’t know. It’s, what’s scary to me about like, seeing that portrayed so often in the media too, is that it gets romanticized so much that it’s like, that is not healthy for anyone. Like we all need [01:09:00] other people and. As I’ve come, you know, to, to these conclusions of like being asexual and being able to like, understand my relationships with people in a different way.
And that it’s okay to like prioritize my relationships in a different way than I was before that, like it, I think it it’s funny cuz like a lot of it was like outside pressure too. I don’t know why. I couldn’t tell you why, but I feel like a lot of people have like weirdly romanticized, like my relationship with Cameron, like people being like relationship goals.
Like I’m like if you knew you probably wouldn’t think this is your goal. because I’m like, we’re not doing a lot of things that you probably would wanna be doing. But um, that, like, I don’t know that I feel, I feel like a lot of it just came from the message came from a lot of different places that like, I should only be talking to Cameron about specific things and like Cameron is a very good listener.
I love that so much about him. He’s knowledge of a conversationalist and I need like. I need feedback. I need something to like bounce [01:10:00] off of, especially when I’m like working through something. Like, I’m just like, he’s such a great listener and he’s such a, like, he’s a great space for, and I always tell him everything first.
Cause I feel like telling him is helping me work it out as I’m saying it. Um, but like for a long time I felt guilty about like talking to other friends about like issues that I was having or just different thoughts that I was having because it felt like I was, um, betraying him. But it just like, I feel like through this process, I’ve found such a freedom in being able to prioritize my friendships differently and treat them as though they’re as important.
And as like whole, as people tend to only treat like their romantic relationships. Um, because, and, and it makes the, and it makes it easier for me to be a friend that I want to be, because it makes me feel less weird about pursuing that relationship in the way that I want to [01:11:00] and not, I don’t know. I always felt like I was like too needy or like, um, I don’t know, like I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t reach out to a person as much as I want to because I am not that I am not that number one slot, you know, relationship person.
And I just think that the idea of even like queer platonic relationships is really important. I wish that was like something that more people knew. Um, because I don’t know. I just think that like blowing up this idea of. There’s one default experience that we’re all supposed to fall in line with. Like just opens up so many possibilities for people to live in a different way.
Cuz I know that like, I don’t know, there’s just so many people who could benefit from having different ideas of like [01:12:00] how to structure their relationships, that it doesn’t have to fall in this one way. It doesn’t have to fall in a triangle where there’s one at the top and everything is underneath. And that like if that top one needs something that the rest of them don’t matter, you know what I’m saying?
Like it just, I feel like I’ve felt a lot of freedom in that way to, um, to be more on myself, to live more authentically. And that has been really important for me.
Kate: I appreciate you bringing this up because I think it’s a really important topic. And I, I agree with you completely. I have a tendency to, if I, I connect with somebody, am like connected on every level with that person. And I love that. And that person, when that person can give that back to me. Oh, it’s like magic, but it’s not just that, that person or I.[01:13:00]
Don’t want to have that other person be everything. Sometimes there are things in the way that make it, so you just cannot be everything for the other person, or they cannot be everything for you. And sometimes that is actually really difficult for me to say, okay, am going to outsource this problem or or need like physical need that I have to somebody who isn’t the person who I’m gonna call my partner because they can’t give that to me right now.
They, they are not physically capable of giving me what I need right now. And so I’m going to find somebody else, but to even be able to think about that, even be able to like, imagine how that’s gonna work takes. Stepping out of this paradigm that we’re in, that everything must come from our partner, that we aren’t doing it the right way.
If we’re asking for it somewhere else. [01:14:00] think that this is a really important topic, a really important thing for us to deconstruct, um, with it Mormonism because it’s not just that we have different needs and one person can’t meet at all. One person might be able to meet all of my needs, theoretically, but in the moment, they’re not going to be able to do, to do that.
And we have to be able to say, no, we’re we are a community. believe in community care. We believe that other people should be able to take care of us and we should be able to take care of other people. So I appreciate you bringing that up.
ruth: Yeah. And I think that like, in the context of the way that you’re talking about it, it’s also that, like, it’s interesting to me that like, as a church, we talk a lot about like community, but from, in my experience, like it becomes very, at least, I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s just like a Utah thing. I’ve heard people say that, but that, because, um, People are so like [01:15:00] connected with their families, cuz that’s the whole thing is like eternal families is like the community care part of it rarely makes it to the place where we talk about it being that way.
Um, because like your, your blood relatives or your, your family of origin, whatever it is, um, they are the ones who get the, the most time and attention from you. And for me, um, I don’t know. I just think that it’s, it’s gonna, it will open so many things and destroy like the binary of, I don’t know, like I think a big reason why people have a hard time, like really internalizing the idea of community care is that so often we are kind of closed off in these little pods because of the way that, you know, even just like the way that like the relat.
Triangle is structured, but it’s like, there are some people who are just gonna get more attention. [01:16:00] Um, and I don’t know for me, it, I feel like having this new perspective has actually helped me to feel like I have more community around me. And I think that when we come to terms with the idea that it’s like, it’s not just like our immediate family or whoever who we can rely on.
Like it also encourages us to like reach out to other people and be there for other people and create our own communities, um, and really care for each other in that way. But I think at this point, like it takes so much vulnerability to be able to do that because I think for so long, like I think people in general just kind of have the idea that like the only people who are allowed to like bother or annoy with our problems are people that.
Can’t get away from us because they’re related to us in that way, you know, like I’m allowed to like bug Cameron as much as I want, because like we’ve made this commitment to each [01:17:00] other, but that’s another thing is that like, so often, like we don’t see other relationships as like worth having that conversation of like, we are both in this as much as the other person, like you don’t have like DTRS for friendships.
And I really feel like that should be a thing, because for me it has like, um, eliminated so much of the anxiety of like I’m bothering this person, you know, when you’re open with that person in the same way that you would be with someone who you’re vulnerable with in that way, like a romantic partner, like it, I feel like it leaves so much space for that anxiety to not be there because you know, that that person is committed to the relationship in this.
Like as committed as you are. And I feel like that also helps it. I feel like it just naturally, like that is going to help you build community. Because if you know that like you have that vulnerability, then you know that you can [01:18:00] also be honest with those people. And if you don’t have space for something, you can say that rather than trying to like constantly just be like placating whoever, because the relationships are deeper because you’re allowing them to be, I feel like that’s where community like truly starts is when there is that vulnerability.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And you can’t, you can’t really create that by yourself. Like you really do need to, to have everybody be open to this idea that, that we’re going to create a community together.
Colette: This conversation has been so good. I just love sitting in on these and learning from our amazing guests.
Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for sharing your for your vulnerability, your willingness to educate others can be hard to be a marginalized person and take on that additional responsibility to educate. So thank you for that emotional labor and just appreciate you. So thank you.
ruth: Thank you for giving me the space to talk about it. So [01:19:00] for being here,
Kate: Yeah, ruth. Always fun. Always exciting. We’ll we’ll probably continue this conversation more.
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