Colette: Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, genderqueer and intersex experiences. I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: And I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/they,
Colette: Today we’re talking to Bradley Talbot, and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jump into that, we want to start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Kate, what brought you queer joy this week?
Kate: Oh my goodness. I’m so excited about this topic. Um, I got a tattoo this week. I haven’t had a tattoo in 15 years. It’s been a while. In fact, like it’s dramatically changed in the last 15 years. Like it hurts less. It’s like this little contraption instead of this giant buzzing thing. I didn’t know any of this.
Um, but the point of getting a tattoo was that it was entirely [00:01:00] my thing. Like there’s so much.
Colette: Yeah,
Kate: judgment around tattoos, first of all. And growing up, my other tattoos came with a lot of judgment from, especially my parents, but for me, this is, this one was just like, this is entirely for me. It is entirely my choice.
And I really do not care what anybody else thinks of it. Um, I’ve cared so much about what other people think about my body and what I do with my body and to have that moment of being like, I genuinely just do not care was new and freeing and exciting for me. And I mean, this tattoo represents love for me and, and loving, you know, who I’m meant to love.
So I’m, I’m excited about that.
Colette: Oh, I love that. And I’m glad it wasn’t as painful. I didn’t realize that tattoos had changed that much in 15 years.
Kate: Yes, it’s changed. Okay, Colette. How about you?[00:02:00]
Colette: Mine. So the last weekend was Sunstone and I never quite know how to describe Sunstone, but the Sunstone Symposium is just kind of this weird, like family reunion of Mormons, of all types. Um, you know, there’s faithful. Their tagline is more than one way to Mormon, which I love. And they just a weird conglomeration of people.
And it was just really fun. You have people who are active in the LDS church, people who are post Mo. I was there with Symmetry Solutions that I work with. And two tables down from us was a polygamous sect and there was the Community of Christ. And like, there was this big family reunion with lots of different presenters talking about a lot of different stuff.
And it was queer joy for me because I was able to just show up as me. I was able to talk to people about the fact that, Hey, I’m queer and I’m a therapist and not have to hide that. And their logo this [00:03:00] year was, it had Mormon and it was also had some rainbow stuff coming out of it. I’m like, Hey, this shirt is me. And so I got a shirt and was just very happy.
Kate: Love that I know how excited you get about rainbows.
Colette: I know, I love me and my rainbows.
Kate: That’s awesome. I’m glad you gotta participate in that. That’s neat.
Colette: It was awesome. Little draining, but good.
Bradley: Hmm. Yeah.
Colette: So how about you, Bradley? What queer joy do you have to share with us?
Bradley: Yeah. So recently I found a lot of time on my hands. So I have been reading so much, within the last like week I’ve already finished like three or four books. But one of them that I finished was Trials of Apollo and I don’t wanna like go too much into it for people who probably haven’t read it yet, but there’s a lot of queer joy that I experienced reading that just like the representation and feeling like more [00:04:00] included and, I don’t know, just really wholesome and heartwarming and I’m obsessed with it.
And I, I love the story. I love the author. He lives in Boston, so I’m so excited to be going to Boston soon in the same city that he lives in. And he’s currently working on a spinoff series to the original Percy Jackson about a gay demigod couple.
Colette: Am here for it. That sounds amazing.
Bradley: He’s co-authoring it with another queer author which I really appreciate. And I’m just very excited for all of that. So all of that is just very joyous to me.
Colette: Yeah, that sounds great. I’m here for the queer representation in all sorts of media, which is partially what we’re gonna be talking about today. Right? Thank you for sharing that with us.
Bradley: Yeah.
Kate: That’s a great segue.
Colette: Thank you.[00:05:00]
Kate: Yeah. So today we have Bradley Talbot on and partially we have Bradley on because I love Bradley and I’m so excited to just have more conversations with Bradley, but also because we wanted to do like a episode review of Mormon No More, which features Sal and Lena’s story. But also has these, snippets of other stories, including Bradley’s story.
So we wanted to get some behind the scenes info and also talk about the series and our thoughts on it and how it was presented and some other stuff up.
Colette: Yeah. So we didn’t come up with much of an outline for this on how we wanted to do it. So I would, I guess, just to be started, I know, uh, Kate you’ve talked to Bradley a lot more. I’ve only interacted with you Bradley just online. We’ve never actually met. Um, or talked outside of preparing for this episode.
Bradley: [00:06:00] relationships are. Yep.
Colette: That’s fair. Social media brings us all together, but I’m really curious how you even got initially connected to be in the Mormon No More docuseries.
Bradley: Yeah. So, obviously I’ve been doing a lot of work over the last few years, and specifically the lighting of the rainbow Y on March 4th, 2021 got a lot of attention. And by December of that year, one of the producers to the show just reached out to me and said, Hey, I’m working with ABC News and Hulu.
We have this passion project that we are trying to put together. Would you be interested in being a part of it? And that was kind of all the information I was given. I didn’t know the title. They didn’t even know the title. I didn’t know. What they wanted. Exactly. I didn’t know how many people were gonna be featured.
I didn’t know if this was gonna be like a one long movie or if it was gonna be segments. Like, I didn’t know very much at all, but I was like, [00:07:00] “um, yeah, I wanna be a part of this!” And so, we started making some plans. They came and visited my family as seen in the show and they interviewed us for hours and hours and hours, and it was exhausting.
And of course that’s how TV is where they only put in like less than 10% of how much they actually record. And so that’s some behind the scenes for you is what you don’t see is how tired we are. Us sitting around the dinner table, we had been sitting there for probably three or four hours, because we had so many questions.
They interviewed every single one of my family members. They didn’t put that in there, but they interviewed and asked questions to all of my siblings, my parents. They were there when we were getting ready for church and going to church and asked our my parents about what they thought. And and then they interviewed me and just so many hours and hours of interviews.
And then of course they cut out most of it. But[00:08:00] yeah, it was, it was a great experience, obviously, a lot of thoughts and feelings. So where do you wanna start?
Kate: I remember when you got that email from Hulu messaged me and Maggie actually and said, “Hey, um, what?!”
Bradley: I was kind of freaking out
Kate: What were your concerns?
Bradley: I was concerned about what their intentions were because the whole time that I’ve been organizing color, the campus events. I’ve always tried to be very careful about how the message is presented and received, because it’s very fragile and it can be flipped and taken in so many different directions.
And I wanted to kind of protect that a little bit. And so I was concerned as how they were going to do that, why they wanted to talk to me what this meant for me. Like, it was [00:09:00] kind of scary in some ways, because now I’m suddenly in this space of, oh no, I’m gonna be like public. like more public than I was.
And that whole experience, that whole journey for me has also been kind of unique because I never even had it coming out. I just was there. People just saw what I was doing and then people who knew me from childhood and for my mission, they would see, What was going on and they’re like, oh, I guess this is how I found out that Brad’s gay through what I was doing.
And so it was kind of weird to suddenly be put in this space of, I never even like fully came out to people and suddenly everybody knows, and I don’t have any control over that. I can’t like protect that anymore. I was also just concerned about like, how much time it was gonna take, what sort of things this was going to mean.
We were planning on lighting the Y again,[00:10:00] and they, they had asked if they could get like a background of like how I put it together. And I was like, well, we’re actually doing it again. And they’re like, great. We will document that. And so I was kind of concerned about how that was going to work because there’s a lot of behind the scenes stuff that we needed to keep very low key. And I was like, how can we secretly hike a bunch of people up the mountain when we’ve got all these cameras and this, uh, producer team that are interviewing people. And like, I was like, how can we do this discreetly? So a lot of concerns, but overall, I think it was just very exciting and, shocking to me.
Kate: So maybe we can back up just like a little bit and talk about, what Color the Campus does on campus at BYU and how this led to the first lighting of the Y.
Bradley: So I started Color the Campus back in 2019. [00:11:00] After a series of difficult experiences that I had at BYU, and with the church and just feeling very isolated and, that I didn’t belong and that people didn’t want me there. So I decided I wanted to kind of create an opportunity for people to be more visible and to show that there, there is a community that there are other people like me, and there are other people who want to be who aren’t part of the LGBTQ+ community, but that still want to be my friend and want to hang out with me and want to support me and are there to do so. And so, I started out with holding, once a semester, rainbow days for people to just wear rainbow, go about their regular activities throughout the day on campus. But just as like a subtle or not subtle message to people that, Hey, like I’m, I’m here to support you. And I want you here on campus and I’m [00:12:00] grateful that you are part of the BYU campus. And the first one was mostly my family that participated a lot of cousins and, and some friends and things like that.
It was kind of small, but it was also really cool to, to see people here and there that I had never met before, wear rainbow and, and think, wow, I, I got people to wear rainbows today. And I even remember that first one was kind of rainy, um, kind of gloomy. And by the end, there was an actual rainbow in the sky.
And that was really cool testament to me. By the, the next one, in, 2020, it was like February. There was a lot of stuff going on with the BYU Honor Code and things like that. And so rainbow day just so happened to be right in between when BYU announced or not really announced, but when BYU redacted, the homosexuality clause in the honor code, and right before the letter came [00:13:00] out saying that it’s still gonna be disciplined.
And so we were kind of in that sweet spot of everyone was really excited and, and wanted to participate. And so that rainbow day was huge. They caught a lot of attention. It was really exciting. And then the following week on March 4th, 2020, the letter came out that that basically was saying like, it’s still, we haven’t changed.
Which is very confusing. And there’s a whole thing to, to be said about that. And then the pandemic hit and just really got everyone’s way. Because a lot of people were motivated to make changes and to rise above and, and get to work and all that kind of stuff. But the pandemic really got in the way of that happening.
And so, we had another rainbow day that fall, but it was mostly online. And then it wasn’t until the following year on the anniversary that we made plans to light the Y in rainbow colors, and that’s kind of how that all came [00:14:00] together. But
Colette: And what inspired the idea to lighting the Y? Because that is a kind of even bigger statement than like, Hey, wear rainbow.
Bradley: Yeah, I kind of took a shift from subtly going about campus to, to making this huge, huge statement. I don’t know exactly who like where it all of, officially started. I know, leading up, ever since the, letter came out, there was talk about doing all sorts of different displays and protests and, and lots of things.
And I was in one group chat of a bunch of queer BYU students that was talking about things. And someone mentioned, Hey, like, what if we got rainbow lights and like, put it on the mountain or something like that. And and it never really turned into anything because no one thought of the logistics of how to actually do that.
But that was kind of tossed around and then it [00:15:00] wasn’t until I announced, the Rainbow Day in like January. That someone reached out to me and said, Hey, like, remember we talked about doing like these rainbow lights. Like, what if we actually put that together? And I was like, okay, let’s, let’s talk about it.
Like, how would that work? And he’s like, well, I’ve already gone up, I’ve measured the why I’ve bought the lights, I’ve put on the filters. Like I just need a group of people to do it, cuz I don’t have, enough people to put that sort of thing together. And I was like, oh, okay, like let’s meet up. Let’s talk about this. So we did. And he had some concerns about, protecting his identity and how to actually pull it off. And so we flushed those out and I said, Hey, like I’ll kind of spearhead this so you can be protected and I’ll, I’ll take, the heat for whatever happens. Like I can get.
The people to show up and he is like, well, we’re gonna need like 40 to 50. And I was like, I can get it. I can get [00:16:00] that many people. So yeah, I just started reaching out to people and we had created this document with all the information and over the next couple months we just slowly started making these plans and it is a miracle that we did not get found out.
I don’t know how that information was not leaked. There was probably at most like 70 people who
Colette: Oh, my goodness.
Bradley: and that’s it. Um, and
Colette: people can keep secrets.
Bradley: yeah. People, people were able to keep it secret. I was very intentional with, with who I told, because I was like, we cannot, we had no idea what was going to happen.
It was terrifying, but exciting. And a lot of people who. Signed up, only did so under the promise that they would be anonymous. And I assured them that no, the only name attached to it is going to be mine. And [00:17:00] even our signup sheet was initials only. So identities were protected. And yeah, just very hush, hush.
We called it secret combinations, but
Colette: That’s awesome.
Bradley: Yeah, it really is a miracle that we were able to keep it so secretive because genuinely, I don’t think anyone saw it coming.
Kate: No, no way I was, I was so prepared for Rainbow Day. Like I was, I was getting so excited. I don’t even know if you know this, but I like collected books. I went to desert book and I got like all the copies of Ben Schilaty’s book, all the copies of Charlie Bird’s book, all the copies of, oh, like a few different books and bought them so that, Jerilyn Pool could distribute them at BYU.
I was like, oh, like I love Rainbow Day. And yet. You know, I had no clue had no clue that something, this incredible was even gonna take
Bradley: [00:18:00] Mm-hmm and I, yeah, I even kept it from you.
Kate: Yeah.
Bradley: Um, because we, we were working on a podcast, a different podcast at the time, and I never said anything.
Colette: Well, and I at the time I was still working for the church and dealing with my sexuality and I was actually working for a church school, where rainbow days wasn’t as big of a thing because it wasn’t BYU. But I remember then seeing on social media, the why was lit up in rainbow and I, I wasn’t able to make it down to Provo, but just seeing the pictures meant so much to me and that the people would take time to do that.
And just, I felt so seen, and it was interesting seeing their reactions on social media, cuz I am friends with a lot of queer people and it did mean so much to so many, but then also seeing the outrage of some people of how dare these people make it rainbow and make a statement, blah, blah, blah. How did you deal with the fall out of all that.
Bradley: Oh, [00:19:00] it was hard.
Colette: I’m sure
Bradley: I remember, um, as soon as we finally got it all lit and it had actually had happened and I had made the post and all the pictures were circulating. I remember just kind of hitting me like, oh my gosh, I just did this . And what is going to happen now? And I was exhausted that whole week.
So yeah, that whole week there had been the anti counter protests that had been going around, got a lot of friction and attention and that’s really when, the publicity started and a lot of people started, asking like giving interest. You and so I was already exhausted because I had already been interviewed on all these news stations and answering questions and making statements to the BYU community of, Hey, we’re still keeping rainbow day.
Like this is what to do when you run into counter protests and this [00:20:00] is how you report them and, and all that kind of stuff, because we weren’t protesting. So we were fine. We were protected by BYU, but if they counter protested, they were under discipline. So it kind of worked out in our favor that way, but it was exhausting because people didn’t even know what I had planned
And there was already so much excitement and visibility for it. And we were running into issues with maybe not having enough volunteers and then it snowed and, or it didn’t snow that week, but there was still snow on the mountain. And so I had to send someone up to literally shovel all the, the snow away, because we wanted it to work out.
And so after we had finally got it all done and it’s like nine, 10:00 PM. I’m just exhausted. I told myself I would stay up until the end of rainbow day. Because rainbow day is midnight to midnight. And as soon as rainbow day happened, I would just go to bed. And so I stayed up for a couple more hours just seeing all the[00:21:00] pictures and the excitement and things like that.
And then just passed out. And by the next morning I had over 400 messages, from people. And I would say most of them were very, very positive. There was only a few fortunately, that were negative. but it was hard because people were upset. They thought I had vandalized, they thought we had like destroyed the whole electrical system of the Y they literally thought we had like unscrewed the light bulbs and like switched them out.
They didn’t understand what had happened. And so it was hard to be in that isolated area of not knowing what is going to happen. Like, did we do the wrong thing? How is BYU gonna respond? How is the church going to respond? How is my family going to respond? Because my mom was there.
She, she helped. But [00:22:00] none of my siblings had any idea. I don’t even know if my dad really knew. I think he did, but I didn’t tell him and then extended family. So it was really, yeah, like just difficult to deal with a lot of unanswered questions and what ifs and I had a month left before I was gonna graduate and was fully prepared to just have to start over cuz I didn’t know what was gonna happen.
Colette: Right. Like, that’s one thing. Really interest me, cuz again, I was working for a church school at the time and there was this fear of what if I lose my job. And even then I feel like that fear wasn’t as pronounced as it could be for students of what if I don’t get my degree, you know, all these credits won’t transfer.
I have to start over. I could have gotten a job somewhere else and eventually did when I chose to leave. But like did that, how did you deal with that potential [00:23:00] consequence and be like, I’m doing this anyways, regardless of what may come from the university.
Bradley: Yeah. So I think there was this turning point for me in the beginnings of planning, this sort of event going through the logistics with this other guy where I kind of realized, like, if we are going to commit to this, we can’t do it half way. We have to go all the way. And I knew that this was so much bigger than me, that it was going to affect so many people that, especially when people had reached out and they’re like, Hey, I wanna help, but I cannot have my name attached.
I kind of knew that someone needed to, to step in. And if, if I got kicked out, there were so many people willing to support me and that would take care of me that I knew it was gonna be worth it. And that honestly, would’ve been an honor to lose my degree for something like this. And [00:24:00] it would’ve gone even more attention than it had.
If they had done that. And I think that’s part of why they didn’t is because they knew that, but I really just felt like if I was going to do something like this, I had to put everything on the table and there was nothing more important to me than to send our message. And I could sacrifice whatever I needed to, and I couldn’t hold back because any sort of resistance or things like that, would’ve gotten in the way of us being successful.
And I couldn’t have that.
Colette: I really admire that. Thank you. I didn’t have the courage at the time. I’m glad you had people to support you and I’m so glad cause it did. It meant so much. Especially that one in 2020, when all the honor code stuff was happening. I remember getting the email to my work email and just being devastated of, [00:25:00] you know, there had been a little bit of hope and then there was the clarification email sent and it was just like a gut punch.
And so to just be reminded that there are people. Who care about queer students and employees and are fighting to make a difference. It, it meant a lot.
Bradley: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So then it was, that was March 2020. And then you got, then Hulu reached out that December. Is that the right timeline?
Bradley: So the first, um, the honor code stuff happened in March 2020, the first lighting was a year later on March 2021. And so yeah, by that December Hulu reached out and then started filming in January, February, and then was there for when we did it in March. Again.
Colette: Well, and I am kind of curious again, going back to behind the scenes, it was really interesting watching the [00:26:00] documentary. and seeing I’m like, oh, they like just recorded some of this. like, I
know
Bradley: it was pretty recent
Colette: Yeah. Cause it came out, what, in June of this year and the lighting of the why happened in, sorry, did you say March or April?
And I know that Sal and Lena’s wedding had happened in May. I’m like they were getting some last minute footage.
Bradley: Mm-hmm yeah, they really were. It was right at the very end that they were, there with us, a lot of people or not a lot, but there’s a decent amount of people that reached out and thought that it was the original lighting of the Y, because they’re like, wow, that’s so cool that I didn’t know, you had people there.
And I was like, no, we did it. This was just recent and I hadn’t seen, I hadn’t seen that footage. I hadn’t seen what was gonna be put in the show. So it was really cool to, to see how they put it together. And the shots that they got were really cool.
Colette: oh, it was cool being like, I know that person, I know that [00:27:00] person being like, oh, I, I know some of these people, but it was also, I remember when being involved and being in some of the queer circles, hearing some of this like, oh, lighting the Y again, maybe, but also knowing and having those warnings that they mentioned in the docu-series about, well, Really coming down, you could get in trouble with the law and people had to back out. What was that sort of additional barrier like this time around.
Bradley: yeah. So this time was really stressful because we did have issues with the law. And so there were a lot of people that weren’t willing to take that risk. I wasn’t even sure if I was willing to take that risk. But again, I kind of just felt like we gotta go all in. And I was really nervous because we kept having to push it back due to weather.
[00:28:00] And we kept losing volunteers and by the end about half of the original volunteers were still signed up. And we didn’t know if we were gonna have enough people. We were short quite a few for the display, but fortunately I think the lights were just bright enough that you couldn’t really tell.
It looked, it still looked really good.
Colette: Yeah, it.
Bradley: And, but yeah, it was really stressful and difficult to kind of navigate that. I had to work with a lot of different lawyers and attorneys and, and kind of go through, okay, what is, possible? What is what could happen? How do we have to move forward from this?
And fortunately nothing happened, but we were prepared for whatever could happen. Because yeah, again, we had to go all the way.
Colette: And I really admire that, cuz I, I know this is where we may be or I examine some of my privilege and things like that and being like, okay, well, if I were to get in [00:29:00] trouble with the law, what does that mean for my career? Would I be able to still be a therapist? You know, social work is all about advocating for the, those in that are in that are marginalized and don’t have the same privilege, but does my privilege cover this. And it was just very interesting internal debates. I was having with myself around all this. And so for lots of people to still go all in, even knowing the consequences is really amazing to see.
Bradley: Yeah, it, it really is. And that was really inspiring to me when I realized that, that there were so many people that even after we announced, Hey, you could get arrested. They were like, oh yeah, let’s do this. Like they wanted to be arrested. They wanted to make a statement. They wanted to show that they were willing to put everything on the line and just so inspiring to feel like, yeah, there are so many people that will do anything to send this message.
And so I’m not gonna be [00:30:00] alone. It’s not gonna be as devastating as it could be. And, and then the other thing was if we didn’t send our message, all those people who are struggling and felt alone and the lives that we’ve already lost that’s way more devastating to me than me losing my career.
I’m also going into social work planning to get my masters soon. And so I had to think about that. My mom was trying to talk me out of it. She’s like, are you sure you wanna be on the mountain? Like, why don’t you just stay here and like, organize it. And I was like, no, I need to be there. Um, I need to be a part of it.
And um, if, if I get arrested for this, like, wouldn’t that look better for my social work, like
Colette: Shows me my cred
Bradley: I did this for, for a cause, you know?
Colette: Yeah.
Bradley: But yeah, who knows, I, I didn’t know what was going to happen. It was really scary, but I, I figured the, the pros and cons were saving [00:31:00] someone’s life or saving my career and I can’t put my career over someone’s life.
So
Colette: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for making that stand. So, unfortunately it’s so needed in the culture that we’re in.
Bradley: mm-hmm yeah.
Kate: So you were, you were a BYU student, your first go around, you, weren’t a BYU student, the second go around. But you were in the process of trying to get into different schools and things at that time. Right?
Bradley: Mm-hmm . Yeah. Also to mention, we did do a lighting in between in September that one didn’t get very much attention, but, so we’ve done it three times now and yeah, this third time that was featured on Hulu. I was waiting for a lot of schools to get back to me to see if I had gotten in and I had written all about my experience at BYU as part of my admissions essay.
[00:32:00] And I think that’s why I was able to get in was because I was like, Hey, I have firsthand experience with, with this advocacy work. but yeah, I was, I even had reached out to one school that had already accepted me and was like, so hypothetically, what would a misdemeanor do to my acceptance?
Kate: No way.
Bradley: Because I just didn’t know yeah, I was just like, I don’t know if this is like a big deal, but like, I potentially see that this could happen.
Like I might go to jail, but we don’t know. And they were kind of like what but then they like explained that no, like it wouldn’t be like the type of misdemeanor, and those kind of things wouldn’t have gotten me kicked out. They were a little concerned by that, but I was like, don’t worry about it.
You’ll hear about it later. um, yeah.
Colette: And the misdemeanor didn’t happen. So that was good. Didn’t have to end up actually worrying about it.
Bradley: Yeah, [00:33:00] thank goodness.
Colette: So I’m curious your experience then having this docu-series come out, obviously it does feature Sal, Lena, mainly their story, and then interweaving these other queer stories. What was it like to have that premier and really have you featured on living room, TV screens across America?
Bradley: It’s so embarrassing. Like, everyone is so critical of themselves, you know, because they hate the sound of their voice. They hate looking at pictures, like to see yourself on TV is just a whole new level. Like it was so embarrassing. I was like, oh my gosh, who told me? I looked like that. Like, why did no one?
Ugh. Um, but. besides that I was really proud of, of the things that I did say that were put in the show. I was so proud of my mom. What she did, like she, she kind of [00:34:00] stole the show. I think it was just a, a bizarre experience to be like, wow, I am actually like on Hulu how do you deal with that?
But yeah, I think overall it was very humbling, embarrassing and exciting.
Colette: I also am curious if you have any thoughts about, um, the idea that this docu-series was kind of formed around Sal and Lena’s story, which, as you’re aware of being in the queer community, a lot of times gay, cis male stories are centered, so I am curious if, you know, kind of the behind the scenes, how they decided to have Sal and Lena’s story kind of take center stage as they interweave these other stories. Instead of having the Color the Campus story take first or the conversion therapy, you know, having more of a cis gay male experience centered, [00:35:00] um, having two queer women’s story, be the center of the story. Do you have any insight about that?
Bradley: Yeah. So, I think what was interesting about this experience with The producers was, they didn’t tell me very much at all. And they kind of assumed that I knew who they were talking about. Obviously there’s the one part in the show where, Sal and Lena were interviewing me for their podcast.
That was the first time I had met them. It was the first time I’d even like interacted with them. Like they had mentioned them before and that they were working with them, but I didn’t know if it was like they had their own thing. And then I had my own thing or I didn’t, I didn’t know any of that. And I was also actually a little bit confused as to why they were recording me during the podcast.
Cuz I didn’t know that that was actually part of the show.
Colette: Oh, interesting.
Kate: That’s so funny. You didn’t know the whole time you’re recording.
Bradley: No, I was very kind of confused. I [00:36:00] was like, why are they recording? And it wasn’t until like, yeah, part way through that. I was like, maybe this is just part of the show. Like I didn’t get it. I didn’t know what the point of the podcast was I thought that they had just heard about me and wanted to interview me.
I, I don’t, I didn’t know cuz they didn’t explain like the format of how the show was going to be. They still hadn’t even picked a title at that point. So I really didn’t know anything and I, what
Kate: sS you and I were talking this whole time after you got the, that initial email, like we were like, okay, what is this series? What is this Hulu thing? And, um, the whole time, it seemed a little bit chaotic. Like they didn’t really loop you in on a lot. They were just always like, okay, we wanna follow you up to the Y, or we’re gonna be doing this.
Is that
Bradley: Yeah. I, I really do think that they were trying to make it, uh, like partway. It was documentary where they were like trying to [00:37:00] see. Cover, what was already what had already happened, but they were also just trying to get footage to see what was going to unfold. And so I don’t even think they knew where the show was going to go.
They were just trying to see like what was going to happen. And I think that’s why they focused on Sal and Lena, was because they had like an end goal. They had their marriage, their wedding. And so they just wanted to record all, but they didn’t have like a specific agenda. I didn’t think until they had gotten all the footage first.
Does that kind of make sense? That’s kind of how it felt to me.
Kate: That’s actually really interesting behind the scenes stuff. I’m glad to know that. I didn’t know that before, but even though like, I, I witnessed the process with you. I hadn’t thought about that. And how. It must have been remarkable following, following their process. And cuz there are multiple milestones that happen for them.
That would make it seem like, oh yeah, this is the story we wanna follow
Bradley: Mm-hmm yeah, I think they [00:38:00] just saw what was happening in real time. And that’s when they kind of picked up on, okay, we’re gonna go with this. We’re gonna go with this, but they didn’t know what was going to happen beforehand. And I think that was really kind of a cool experience that they had because they weren’t trying to direct it a certain way.
They just wanted to hear people’s stories, see what was happening. And then there just happened to be, we were lighting the Y and so they were able to see that in real time. Sal and Lena were getting married so they could see that whole thing. But they didn’t. What’s the word. They didn’t like string people along and like purposefully, like cause tension and like have conversations happen.
Like yeah. They didn’t orchestrate anything. All of those conversations were genuine. I think there were some times where they were like, Hey, like we know you’re getting ready for church. Like, can we just like, be a part of that? And I was like, well, I’m actually not going to church with my family. I go to a different ward, so that’s just not gonna work out.[00:39:00]
And so like, oh shoot. Okay. I guess we won’t. But yeah, it was really interesting cuz I didn’t know where it was going the whole time we were recording. I didn’t know what they were going to keep in, what they wanted. And I do think that maybe they didn’t even know either.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. That’s.
Colette: Well, do you know the like how they even decided they wanted to do something around this topic then? Like how that was, whose
Bradley: yes, I do know, I do know that Sal and Lena from the beginning was their focus, because they had, or like the initial, like contact that they had because they had been featured on same sex parents and Instagram account. And that had gone a lot of attention because they were two Mormon moms that had seven kids.
Like that was a big, deal, I guess. And so it got a lot of attention. And so one of the [00:40:00] producers reached out to them and said, Hey, I have this passion project that I wanna work on featuring queer Mormons. Like, can we start talking? And so I don’t think they had a goal in mind, but they wanted to feature this kind of story.
And so I do think that, yeah, they were the kind of the focus from the beginning, but I don’t even know at that time, if they totally knew what exactly was going to happen, who they were going to meet and talk to and, and those kinds of things. So
Colette: That makes sense. Especially my understanding, this was filmed over the course of like a year, right. So there was a lot that was unfolding in everyone’s.
Bradley: mm-hmm . Yeah. And if I remember correctly, I think either Sal or Lena said something about like, it had been like two years since they had first started since they had like that first initial contact. So they had been recording over the last year, but they had been kind of, getting things in the works and like submitting like [00:41:00] their proposal to get it green lit and all that leading up to it.
And so and yeah, they had already been filming for like six months before they even reached out to me. So cuz they didn’t start filming until February, March and they with me and they had started filming back in the summer. So with Sal Lena, so it really did kind of feel a little chaotic um, but I think they did a great job overall with, with how they brought it all together.
Colette: Yeah. I think it pulled together really well. I wonder if this would be a good time for me and Kate to kind of share our experiences and reactions watching it then. Cuz we didn’t know all that background, chaotic stuff. It pulled together pretty nicely.
Bradley: Mm-hmm
Kate: I wanna hear your reaction. We haven’t really talked about
Colette: We haven’t. It was interesting. So I watched it with a married lesbian couple friends of mine, and, one of them grew up Mormon and one of them didn’t but grew up in [00:42:00] Utah. And so it was just really interesting how my friend and I, who grew up Mormon were just like, yep, yep, yep. Like this, totally get it.
And we’d have to sometimes pause and like explain stuff to the one who didn’t grow up Mormon. like, I remember having to stop and explain why a mission president is so important to someone and we’re like this friend had grown up playing sports. We’re like, imagine if you were taken away from your parents and you couldn’t have any contact with them, but there was a really awesome coach and that was like your adult contact. And we were trying to do this analogy to try to be like, this is why having a mission president can mean such a big deal and why that acceptance and love is so important. So having to do this a few times and also stopping and talking about our experiences, doing, having some mild conversion therapy, when that plot line came out and what that experience was like, and it was just really, I didn’t wanna watch it by [00:43:00] myself.
I really wanted to watch it with other people who would get it. And so it was really nice being able to watch it with my friends. Even though we did have to sometimes stop and explain , so that was kind of my experience. And it was just really validating to be like, yeah, I get all this. And I wish more people would watch it by know that some people that would really benefit from watching it won’t watch it because of the title.
So that was kind of hard to.
Kate: Yeah, let’s talk about that a little bit because you see in the trailer, I guess the trailer, you see Jessyca and Savannah. Jessyca Fulmer, who, um, was part of Mormon and Gay website. Bradley has like a really cool story about her. She was in it and then said, I think that they made her and her wife Savannah made like a really noble and honorable choice to say, we don’t agree with this title.
And so please, we don’t want our names associated [00:44:00] with this title, which I thought I thought was very admirable. And I know Bradley you the whole time had a, had an issue with this title.
Bradley: Yeah. When they first reached out to me and announced that they were playing with some different titles and that was kind of the most popular was Mormon No More. I was really frustrated because I was like, I already feel pretty isolated and pretty out of it. And I’ve been telling all of my family and my friends about this show and they’re super excited to be a part of it.
But if it’s about being Mormon No More, they’re gonna think that I’m not Mormon and I’ve tried so hard to hold space for trying to make that work. It just kind of felt like they were throwing all of that away. So I had a really hard time with the title didn’t know how people were going to react and kind of like what you were saying, Colette, it was gonna turn people away before they even gave it a chance.
And so that was discouraging to me.[00:45:00] And then yeah, watching the show was I was kind of on edge the whole time, because I was like, Hey, what’s the, what’s the underlying message. What are what’s what’s uh, the takeaway, like, how are people gonna react? Um, and yeah, uh, That, that story that Kate just shared.
I think I had similar thoughts where I was like, I don’t know if I wanna be a part of this show if it’s going to depict me in a certain way. Um, but yeah,
Colette: Well, and it’s so interesting to me that that’s the title they went with and I get that Mormon is trending and Mormon No More can probably get but I didn’t feel like that’s at all, what the documentary was about. Like there were a couple of parts and it interesting me and my friend that grew up Mormon were like a little uncomfortable when they were talking about the book of Mormon not being true. And it’s like, oh, you can’t say that. But other than that, like, um, it, it really wasn’t anything [00:46:00] about the church isn’t true. They were very good about like, this just wasn’t working for me anymore. And they say, oh, it’s not true a couple, but really that was not the focus. The focus was queerness and Mormonism and that intersection.
And so I’m like, I don’t know what they could have titled it or were thinking of titling it, but like Mormon No More does not sum up what that docu-series was for me and my experience, because it was more focused on the queerness, not the we’re leaving Mormon.
Bradley: Mm-hmm yeah, I felt very similarly. I was like, this isn’t even about that. Like, um, there’s so much more to it. And so yeah, I, I felt very much the same. I was confused even more after watching the show, why they had titled it, that, because once they had come out with that title, I kind of stopped telling people that I was part of it.
Because I didn’t know how I was going to be. And I didn’t know if I was actually going to be in support of it. And so it wasn’t until I actually watched it that I was like, okay, I can get behind this. I actually did enjoy it. But [00:47:00] yeah. Why, why did they name it? That I don’t know. It did seem a little bit off from what the actual theme was.
Colette: Yeah, thanks. So, Kate, what was your experience watching it all over in Romania, somehow getting access to it.
Kate: Yeah. I had a nifty VPN, and so I was able to watch it on Hulu. Yeah, my experience, even though I knew it was coming out, even though I was excited cuz Bradley and I had been talking about it for a long time, I’d been waiting for it. The main story is really what caught my attention. The main story is really where my heart lies.
Because it, it intersects so much with my own story. And so and I know that. I think, as you were saying earlier, Colette, like this story doesn’t get told when we’re talking about Mormonism and queerness, these are the sort of [00:48:00] stories that aren’t at the forefront. And so to have this one be at the forefront was really remarkable.
And I think it gets a lot of attention for a group of people who are in a really vulnerable and terrifying position. And that is married women or married wives or married non-binary people who are haven’t come out yet. Particularly I think that married men within Mormonism have a very different experience than married women who come out, who come out queer.
And so to watch that whole process, and I loved the animation too, like watching the animations of them, right.
Bradley: good.
Colette: loved it. We commented on that watching together. Just how beautiful that.
Kate: the animations were great, but, but it gives you just like this perspective of no, I’m on their side. I’m actually, I am invested in this love story and I personally have not really seen that. [00:49:00] I haven’t seen anybody invested in this story, even though it happens so often this is a love story that often gets buried because it, I think it makes husbands uncomfortable and wives are okay with being like, okay, I’m gonna take a back seat, but that’s just my own bias perhaps about that.
Colette: No, I think that’s real though. And you could even see that playing out some in the documentary with the differences between their husbands on what On how they react and what was going on in their lives. And I really appreciate, and that’s, I mean, one reason we do have this podcast is to share more of those stories that tend to get sidelined.
And then it’s interesting bringing on a cis gay male, like Bradley to tell a little bit about his story because it is intertwined with these, but we appreciate the inside scoop. So thanks.
Bradley: You’re welcome.
Kate: but also I think that Bradley and I have a really good relationship. We consider each other brothers, I think. [00:50:00] Do we still do that? Do we still consider each other brothers?
Bradley: I think so.
Kate: Excellent.
Bradley: Do you have, if you have to question it though, now I’m questioning.
Colette: are we having a DTR on the air?
Kate: yeah. We’re no, we obviously are very close and we’ve talked a lot about Bradley and I have talked a lot about, first of all, the love chastity, we have very deep conversations about that. And we also have very deep conversations about abuse within the queer community.
And I think that there is an element of abuse that takes place in these sorts of marriages. And so Bradley, I think is actually a really good person to bring on, to talk through some of these things, because we’ve had these discussions
Colette: Yeah, I really appreciate your deep thinking about a lot of issues. If people aren’t already following you on Instagram, they need. All you are taking the quotes from the Latter Gay Stories On the Record. And like just going through [00:51:00] it and showing and getting people’s reactions and just the work you’re doing there is incredible.
So thank you for all, all of that. But did you wanna talk more about that Kate or go back to kind of how it intertwines with your story?
Bradley: there something specific? I’m I’m good talking about this, but
Kate: I would like to introduce this topic of abuse towards queer people and abuse within queer relationships or within queer community, not even just queer relationships. And I would also like to talk about the law of chasity and how we think about the law of chastity and marriage as these simultaneous things within Mormonism. Maybe we could start with the law of chastity
Bradley: Hmm. Where to start?
Kate: well, I mean,
Colette: a little [00:52:00] bit broad
Kate: well, because we we’ve had this conversation about how does, where, where does it actually come from in
Bradley: Where does it start? Yeah. Where what’s the origin of it, where do these ideas of chastity and purity and those kind of things stem from, especially because to me, I interpret the law of chastity as a law of consent and connection and love. And those three things are kind of pushed away. The law of chastity has transformed to this list of don’ts and yet the don’t do anything without consent is not talked about
Instead it’s just get to this magical gateway of marriage and suddenly everything is good and you can do whatever you want. And I have a lot of issues with that. Why do we allow this arbitrary law that has [00:53:00] no real foundation in history other than cultural and historical context have so much power over us, unless you use it as a way to condemn queer people, which is what it’s doing.
Kate: Yeah, I just wanna step in really fast. I’ve been Bradley and I’ve been talking about this for a long time and we’ve been researching, like, where does it actually enter the temple and the, it doesn’t enter for Joseph Smith. It doesn’t enter during Brigham young. It enters in about 1912. It’s vague because before that it wasn’t the temple ordinances weren’t written down, Brigham young said very explicitly, we are not gonna write these things down.
So we don’t know, but we do know in 1912, there’s a change from about virtue to specifically something called the law of chastity. So yeah, I just wanted to give that background.
Bradley: Yeah, it’s really interesting[00:54:00] especially when you kind of take a step back and look at where the church is going in regards to its policies and other doctrines outside of the temple and just its influence as it interacts with the greater American culture that is it’s surrounded in.
Because as much as we love having a worldwide church, it’s still very much an American church. And so the American culture and what’s happening in America is totally at play with how we interpret doctrine and good and bad and, and those kinds of things. And so I just don’t understand how going to like specifically about marriage.
What does not make sense to me is if we have this law of chasity that is divine and it’s from God, if we’re going to believe that, why is it that a government sanctioned document of a marriage license, suddenly acts as this key to work its [00:55:00] way through this divine law. I don’t know any other divine laws that are subject to a manmade law.
I don’t get that. I know people argue that it’s oh, it’s because it’s a commitment and it’s, it’s those kinds of things. No, a government like marriage for the government is all about like taxes and like benefits and stuff. Like that’s the only reason the government implements it. They don’t care about the actual relationship.
It’s just about how can we regulate taxes and insurance and those kinds of things. And so why does that suddenly act as, as the way for people to, oh, you can do whatever you want now because you’ve been civilly married. It makes a little bit more sense to put it in a temple perspective of recognizing and honoring the temple marriage.
I can kind of understand that a little bit more, but I just really don’t get how there’s so much don’t don’t don’t and then green light. When I think there’s lots of married couples [00:56:00] that are not ready to have sex and they really should not be, because it’s gonna cause a lot of issues and they are not at that level yet. And they are just using marriage as a way to get what they want. yeah, lots of thoughts on that, but
Colette: I think this is just such an important topic. And you just mentioned many of the reasons that I’m getting further training in sex therapy. So I can be a certified sex therapist because Mormons are really, and like any high demand, purity, culture, religion, people are gonna be screwed up with sex. So sometimes might have people come in and they’re like, oh no, no issues with sex.
I’m like, are, are you sure? Like how, how are you? OK. Like, especially if you add any queerness on top of that, like I remember taking a sex therapy class in my grad program a decade ago, and reading about the idea of good girl syndrome, the idea that a lot of female [00:57:00] bodied people struggle when they get married and you’re supposed to go from no sex is terrible. Don’t do it. Don’t think about it. You’re a bad person. If, if you do to suddenly flipping a switch and on your wedding night being like, oh yeah, enjoy it. It’s great. And I’m like, I’m gonna be a woman on my wedding night crying to my husband being like, I can’t do this. I’m a terrible person. Why are we doing this?
And that was even before I realized my queerness. So there’s just a lot there that I think. Culture gets wrong about chasity. Like, let’s talk about the principles of sexual health, according to science based research consent. that is huge. And something that we culturally do not talk about that I think is absolutely part of the law of Chasity.
Kate: Bradley. Did you wanna say anything else about consent?
Bradley: Maybe a little bit, I think to me, I wonder if part of the reason why the church doesn’t focus on consent is [00:58:00] because we baptize children and if we were to emphasize consent then we’re in a sticky situation because I really don’t think it’s consensual to ask someone under the age of consent to make a covenant with God.
That seems a little intense. I think there’s a lot of nuance to that, obviously. But yeah, I think there’s a lot to be said there that maybe part of the reason is because we pressure and bully young men to go on missions before they reach the age of consent. And we give people young men, the priesthood before age of consent and we baptize them.
And we, we do a lot in those early ages that are not very consensual. The temple does not have a lot of consent. You have no idea what’s going on before that happens. So I think, I wonder if that has a role to [00:59:00] play in all of that.
Colette: Oh, yeah, that oof. That’s a heavy one. And when you think about, well, what even is the age of consent? According to church, it’s eight, cuz that’s when you can, can supposedly consent to be baptized. But when you look at science, we know that our frontal lobes aren’t fully developed until we’re 25. So, you know, it’s not even necessarily
Bradley: I just turned 25.
Colette: Hey, welcome.
Bradley: I can finally consent to anything that I’ve ever done.
Colette: oh, I hadn’t thought about those terms before, before. Thank you for that.
Kate: Yeah, it’s interesting to me that queer people are we’re accused. So often of, of talking about and thinking so much about sex and sexuality, and these are our whole identities. And yet we are the ones who are the one who are most concerned at times about consent, about these different issues.
Like we’ve thought through these, I think a [01:00:00] lot more than, than a lot of other people, especially straight young couples.
Bradley: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Who’ve never had the chance to talk about it.
Colette: Well, and it is so interesting. This idea with consent, I work with a lot of individuals and couples who are then struggling with this idea of duty sex of well I’m married and my husband traditionally, typically stereotypically want sex, so I just need to have sex. And that’s how it goes is that consensual, sometimes duty sex can be like, I’m consenting. This is part of what we’ve decided in our relationship. But a lot of times there individuals feel that pressure of, well, I’ve been told culturally systemically, whatever that I need to meet my spouse’s sexual needs and it’s on me. That’s not consent. And that’s one thing I have to educate. A lot of people about is the idea that you [01:01:00] are responsible for meeting your own sexual needs. your partner isn’t. And if you decide together to meet each other’s needs. Awesome. If not, we need to maybe explore other options because consent is still important in a marital partnered relationship. Marriage doesn’t mean you consent to all sex forever. Whenever your spouse wants it. Like that’s not healthy.
Bradley: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that’s going back to my first point. How does marriage suddenly open the door for that? It doesn’t make any sense. I really have a hard time with that being like the foundation to this law of chastity.
Kate: Yeah. Agreed. I would like to give some personal background if that’s okay with y’all both of you. I know Bradley that you’re our guest here, but I think that the Mormon No More the [01:02:00] docu-series really hits home for me. It’s, it’s an experience that I know. I understand. I see. And there are some key differences, but talking about this consent and talking about duty sex I think, yeah, all of this, like really intersects with my own story.
I fell in love. It was accidental because I could control my sexuality. Right. If you’re told all of your life that you can control your sexuality, then you. When you fall in love or, you know, you just like, ignore the feelings. You shut down your body, which is literally what I’ve been doing all of my life is just shutting off what my body feels. And so she is demisexual, I’m demisexual we were best friends and we [01:03:00] didn’t know that we were falling in love. And I think that’s hard for people to understand, especially even after seeing Mormon No More because Sal and Lena’s story is very much like a spark and they fall in love and it’s like, oh, what do we do now?
But for us, it was, we had this friendship and then we realized that we were in love. And that was very challenging because then what do you do? Like. I think that this is something that people don’t often sit with or think about if you’re in this situation, what do you do? What, what options do you have?
And so I had quite a few, but none of them were good. So my reaction was I’m engaged to somebody else. I’m gonna just go elope with this man, because what the church tells us is that it doesn’t matter who your partner is. You just go get married and it will work out and it will be fine.
And so [01:04:00] I go to a hotel room. I am in about the most vulnerable position I could possibly be in I’m gay. I’m in love with the woman. I have a fiance and I don’t know what to do to get out of any of this. Any of these circumstances, and I’m going to a hotel room with a fiance who I know has a law of chastity problem who doesn’t honor me when I say I wanna follow the law of chastity. So when I show up, I said, let’s go get married tomorrow. Let’s go to the St. George temple and will Elop. And he said, in my mind, we’re already married. And I was like, that’s not how that works. If you, yeah, I don’t think you’re, you’re paying attention to, to those detailed lessons they give you. And about the law of chastity, that’s not how that works. It doesn’t matter if it’s an hour before. Remember [01:05:00] hearing that in like young women, it doesn’t matter if it’s an hour before. So, I did not want to. And I repeated that over and over again. I do not want to do this, but I I’m in love with a woman and I have to get out of that situation and to do that after a certain point, after saying no so many times, it’s like, I have this choice and I can either be gay or I can have sex at this moment.
I wasn’t comfortable with it. I was scared. I was scared for my wellbeing. It felt, it feels to this day, like a conversion sexual assault does not feel like at, first of all, it wasn’t it. If you’re repeating, no, it’s not consensual. And if somebody’s pressuring you, it’s not consensual.
But the, they, I there’s this added pressure I have of, I [01:06:00] don’t want to be gay and in love with this person. So I think that’s, I think that all of those factors come into play when we get to this story that we see in Mormon No More.
Colette: No, I, I just appreciate you opening up and sharing your story. I know this is very vulnerable and something you’ve thought about and debated sharing for a long time, but it is so personal. And I really admire your strength in sharing this because I think it is important for people to know that their story they share on Mormon no more is not isolated, but so many of us are scared to talk about our own experiences for whatever reason. And so thank you. And I, I hope people can meet this with the open heart and understanding that you are giving it.
Kate: Yeah. And there are vulnerable people in this story right there. The reason I haven’t, I haven’t spoken about it is not just because [01:07:00] it’s my story, but because it’s a vulnerable story for everybody involved.
I broke off that engagement. The second I could leave that hotel room safely, the second I could figure out how to get out was the second, our relationship was over. And then I’m dealing with being gay in love with a woman and having just experienced this on top of a breakup with a fiance.
And on the other end, there’s a woman who’s in love with me. And what does she do? And that’s really her story to tell is a reason. I haven’t, I haven’t brought it up much, but Sal and Lena give us pretty understanding.
I was stalked tried to get kicked out of my, [01:08:00] my PhD program. And I think that’s like a really interesting dichotomy to talk about the, this, the level of stalking that went against me. There was also abuse by proxy. She was told that she was crazy that that she’d gone temporary, temporarily insane.
We keep in mind have not had any sort of physical relationship. Like we, nothing had happened between us and, yet told her she was crazy called up. All of our friends, told them to call me, and then got in touch with my department to try to get me kicked outta my program and got in touch with my Bishop and state president to get me kicked out of, to P excommunicated. Which is interesting because you have this institution that is my school versus the institution that is the church handling the exact same case, right.
This person is calling both of them. [01:09:00] And the school is taking this very seriously. They’re creating safety plans for me. They’re telling me they’re getting me in touch with multiple organizations on campus. Title IX uCR has a care program where they, they reach out and make sure that people are, are safe from stalking.
My department chair knew like the faculty chair knew my name, knew my situation, knew who this person was, who was gonna be calling and writing emails and the entire department had a safety plan in place to protect me. That’s one institutional reaction. The other institutional reaction was a man calling in to a stake president to say that she is being stalked, sends my personal text messages to the stake president and doctors [01:10:00] them so that it does look like I’m stalking and the stake president coming after me.
Those are two very institutional reactions, one coming from a place of understanding stalking and understanding emotional abuse and the other one coming from the church. Right. And I think we’re seeing this play out oftentimes, or I think we’re seeing this play out right now. We’re seeing that the church has a problem understanding abuse, recognizing abuse, not taking people, not taking seriously, not listening when, when people are telling them this isn’t, this isn’t right. And that comes back against victims.
Colette: Wow. Whew. That’s so much. [01:11:00] And I know you and I have talked about this before Kate, but I just, again, wanna acknowledge your vulnerability in sharing this. And this is the reality. I know you’re also kind of referencing the AP article that came out this week that we’re recording. And as you and I talked about that, and for those that don’t know, we’ll link it in our transcripts.
But showing how, how would you describe this article? The article shows about this one, individual who Continued to get abused and how the church’s supposed help helpline for bishops and ecclesial leaders. Didn’t actually help. And I know this article was hard to read. I know a lot of people were shocked by it, but when Kate, you and I were talking, this wasn’t a surprise.
those of us who work and are friends with and have connections with marginalized individuals within the church. None of this is new. Like, yeah, we didn’t know [01:12:00] this specific story playing out in Arizona, but this isn’t news.
Kate: Yeah, Bradley. Do you have anything to say about the D.
Bradley: Yeah. Well, I just echo that, that Kate and I have talked about my own experiences with Eccles leaders and I totally agree. This was not really that surprising as devastating as it is. That’s how the church is set up. There’s really nothing in place would stop something like this. I’ve had so many different, bishops and state presidents that I’ve worked with that all tell me very different things and they can never answer my questions and they monitor me and they harass me and they do all sorts of stuff.
And there’s nothing in place to do that for [01:13:00] sex offenders, for people who are a threat to the actual community. It’s very much just feeds on the bias of whoever the leader is. Tells them to just love everyone, but leaves it up to their own discretion as to how they’re going to show that love and bias can really do a lot of harm.
Um, and so it’s, it’s frustrating, but yeah, it’s not surprising.
Kate: Yeah. My, in my situation, the woman I fell in love with she has been part of really important LDS organizational things that makes her prominent member. That gets the attention of people in the general relief society. Like these, there were big names, there were big names that are involved in making sure that I was seen as a [01:14:00] predator that I was seen as somebody corrupting another person that I hold on to a lot of, a lot of anger and bitterness about how that played out about how the people who were supposed to protect me. There were people who were supposed to back me up who were supposed to protect me, who were supposed to watch out for me that just because I was queer and because I was assigned female at birth, I think as well my voice was shut out, was talked over and hers was too. Her experience was not taken seriously.
She was silenced. I think that the bravest thing that anybody’s the bravest thing that anybody’s ever done for me is say the face of all of that, to say that they love me and not [01:15:00] give into the giant pressures of a first presidency of the church as a whole organization, uh, coming in, stepping in and trying to say that what she felt wasn’t real. And yet she still said that she loved me.
Like that’s, I’ve never been gifted something so incredible.
Colette: And that really is incredible. You know, thinking of my story, I apologized to those, I did date who I was listening to an institution over what my lived experience was. And I think that is what the church trains us to do is to tr to not listen to our own internal voice and sense of self and right and wrong, but to listen to the institution.
And so that truly is incredible, that she’s was able to do that and listen [01:16:00] to her own heart and what it was saying and not the external pressures and what everyone else around her was.
Kate: Yeah, thank you all for letting me interrupt this this episode with that story. But I think it ever since I saw a Mormon No More, I’ve known like my story is not unique. Their story is not unique. This is happening to women and they’re being pressured.
I think of Elena’s episode, we had Elena come on and her story is she was sent to conversion therapy before she could, before she was able to get a divorce, like this is happening.
Colette: absolutely.
Kate: So I’m really,
Colette: with this community, you know, this is happening.
Kate: so I’m very grateful for Mormon No More. I was grateful before it came out. I was so grateful Bradley for you, like showing me [01:17:00] that it was coming out and kind of guiding, letting me go through it with you, like see what you were going through. Um, because this. I think is a, a changing series. It can certainly change things for a lot of people.
Bradley: I do wanna say though that I think, uh, Kate, your love story just makes me so happy. You’ve shared it with me and I think it is really just, to me, I think about like what I want for my own life and the struggles that I’ve had with my church, culture, family culture, all of these different influences. And people telling me that my queer love is wrong. But I’m just reminded of someone who’s willing to push against that and is still a part of what you just described, Kate, you know, to, to say, [01:18:00] like, I still love you despite all of that. Isn’t that not like true love? Like when everyone says it’s wrong and to still step into that space and defy all of that, how can you say that that’s wrong?
I don’t know many straight people who do that. Like, I don’t know. I think there’s just something about queer love. That is different. That is just so beautiful and so admirable and I, I love it. That’s all.
Kate: I love it too. you. And I appreciate you both being on this journey with me. You both have been very supportive and I’m very grateful for you.
Colette: Grateful for you and your willingness to share and be open. Like, I, I really believe that’s how healing this can is such a huge part of the healing journey to be able to share our stories without shame and [01:19:00] be met with love and kindness, and to hear other stories and realize we’re not alone. That was such a huge part for me, was connecting with other queer people and hearing myself and their stories.
So thank you for sharing more of yours.
So we have been a little all over their place, but were there more things we wanted to talk about with Mormon know more with the work that you’re doing Bradley with um, queer relationships. I mean, we covered a lots of different things.
Kate: I do have a question. Bradley, can you tell us about going to Boston, what that’s gonna be like for you, what you’re looking forward to? So you’ve kind of left this BYU stage and now you’re going into a new stage.
Bradley: Yeah, I’m terrified. I have never really left Utah except for a mission and vacations. I’ve only lived in like three cities, my whole life pleasant Grove, Provo [01:20:00] and bountiful all very heavily Mormon and then a mission. But again, that doesn’t really count. So this would be like the first time that I’m leaving.
And so it’s scary. I’m very excited. Could be getting my master’s in social work. I actually do want to talk to you Colette because I also want to go into like sex therapy.
Colette: Oh, I’m happy to have all the conversations about that. You know how to reach.
Bradley: yes, I very much am so interested in that. And so this is kind of the beginnings of that to get my degree. I’ve never been to Boston.
I don’t know anyone in Boston. Totally just starting over and really excited and relieved to kind of have the opportunity to start over. Because as much as I’ve loved being a part of the BYU community, it has been exhausting and really difficult to keep things going. And I’m grateful that, [01:21:00] um, I’ve kind of been able to see people willing to step up and step in and to, to keep things going.
So it relieves a lot of pressure from me to say goodbye to BYU . But yeah, I will see what happens. Hopefully I can find a Boston boy.
Kate: Yes.
Bradley: We’ll see.
Colette: I’m excited to see where this journey takes you and what awesome things you’ll be doing and how you’ll be able to continue to help the community with the new skills you’ll be gaining.
Kate: Yeah, for sure.
Bradley: you.
Kate: Yeah. This is an exciting time for you. I’m so excited for you to get out and do the Boston thing.
Colette: Yeah. I really appreciate this conversation. So thank you for your time. All right. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. If you’re liking these episodes, we’d love it. If you’d rate interview Called to Queer on the podcast player of your [01:22:00] choice so that other people are likely to find us, we’d also love it if you’d share the podcast with a friend who’d benefit from hearing these. If you wanna contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time!