Colette: Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, genderqueer and intersex experiences. I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: And I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/they.
Colette: Today, we are interviewing Sam Webster and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jumped into that, we wanted to start off by saying what brought us queer joy this week. So Kate, what brought you queer joy this week?
Kate: Yeah. Lots of stuff. I’ve been paying attention to a lot of different things, but mainly, I’ve been in Romania for about eight months now and I’m the American that people know, at least they’re there at least like, oh yeah. We recognize the American around here. And it’s been really cool for the past few weeks [00:01:00] actually, to recognize that people are starting to feel more comfortable talking to me about their gender and what they think about their gender based on just like seeing me and me being visible has created questions for them about what their gender means. So that’s been really cool. It’s been neat to see.
Colette: That’s so cool. It’s hard sometimes to have those conversations. So I love that they’re getting comfortable asking those questions and considering for themselves, that’s really cool.
Kate: Yeah. All right, Colette. How about you?
Colette: So my queer joy actually involves Sam and their girls. I’ve been sick this week but Sam was really sweet and brought over some food one day and their girls made little pictures for me and drawings. And then another day they came over again and we were just hanging out talking and their youngest made another drawing for me. And this time it was of both me and their youngest kid and it had a [00:02:00] rainbow and it was just really sweet. And so I added it to my rainbow wall art. She knows I love rainbows and it was just a really cute little picture. So that was my queer joy.
Kate: I love that. So many rainbows at your house and now another one. I love that.
Colette: You can never have too many rainbows.
Kate: can never have too many rainbows, especially right before June.
Colette: Yeah. All rainbows all the time, during June, especially. All right, Sam, what was your queer joy for the week?
Sam: Yeah. So I am my queer joy for the week. Also has to do with rainbows. I’ve got, where I’m living right now, I have a rainbow bench that’s out in front of my house. And then in my kids’ room, which faces the sidewalk and the road, we have a pride flag that just hangs in the window. But it’s on the inside. I think I was a little nervous, like moving, you never know the kind of like neighborhood you’re moving into. And I was like, I didn’t want to lose, have some, have the flag be stolen. So it’s hanging in the window on the inside.
And it was actually at the [00:03:00] beginning of the school year. My oldest was making friends at school and they had come home one day and they’re like, mom, do you have any extra flags? And I was like, ah, yes. Why? Because I’m never sure where she’s going with it. And she’s like, well, I have a friend that wants to come out to her parents. And so she needs a flag so she can come out to her parents.
And I was like one of those moments where I’m like, is this kid safe? Are they in a safe environment? I don’t even know this kid. Like maybe like we should have some discussion. And so she brought her friend home the next day and I just, I was like, this I’m a stranger to this kid. So I didn’t want to overstep my boundaries, but I’m like, I don’t want to send a flag home with a kid that’s in a bad situation. And so we were able to chat and they told me that their brother was already out to their parents and they just wanted to come out and weren’t quite sure how to do it. But that they felt safe. They felt comfortable. It was okay. And it ended up being a really good experience.
This kid is now my kid’s best friend and they do a bunch of stuff together. This past week, they had Greek [00:04:00] plays at the school and they, it was the, oh, I’m going to botch the names. Hippomenes and Atlanta. It’s a story of the fastest girl. She wins all these races and anyone who races against her, if they don’t beat her, like they get killed. And so the only time she’ll marry someone is if they can beat her. And Hippomenes goes and asks the Gods for help. And they give him some apples to like throw on the race so that it stops Atlanta and slows her down so that he can win.
But. As these sixth graders are demonstrating or acting out in the play, this friend is acting out one of the potential lovers of Atlanta and is like running. And she was all in. She was more I’m so in love with Atlanta than like anybody else was. And it was one of those moments where it’s like, here’s this community that’s being created. And I know it’s not just her. I know there’s been like a lot [00:05:00] of what I’m hearing from my sixth grader coming home from school there’s a lot of just openness around questioning your sexuality and your gender identity and having the space to figure that out. And especially within their friend groups within their classroom, just like just that questioning and the ability to be fluid in it, which I think is so awesome because I just sit and watch. It’s like, oh, I don’t have to do much. I’m just sitting back and watching. Most I have to do is correct drama when it comes up. Um, And kind of walk her through that. But to be able to have started at the beginning of the year with just a lot of worry about going into a new space, a new neighborhood a new school and wondering what their experience was going to be like and worrying about, you know, this friend in particular to here we are at the end of the year, they’re playing a Greek play. And in a very gender specific role, you kind of had a lot of gender roles that were switched that the kids, asked to be switched. But this one in particular is one I noticed just because I[00:06:00] knew that backstory and for her to just be like, Yes, I love Atlanta! I’m going to win. Like just, even in a play to have that be the safe space, just really brought like a sense of fulfillment, almost like we started in an unknown space and now here’s what that space is turning into for these kids in the sixth grade class.
Colette: That’s really cool. Thank you so much for sharing that story, Sam. That’s really awesome. And to have your 12 year old to have that sort of freedom is just amazing.
So we’re excited for you to be on your first podcast ever with us, Sam, we’re very honored and we’re excited to introduce yourself.
Sam: I know it was a, it was a struggle to get me to agree. So thanks for being patient with me.
Colette: Yeah. So for listeners, Sam was one of the first people I wanted to interview on the podcast. Sam’s one of my really close friends and I think their story’s amazing, whatever they decide to share. But let’s have the listeners get to know you and why I think you’re so amazing. You mind jumping into [00:07:00] your queer in 60 seconds and we’ll go from there?
Sam: Yeah, sure. So I was kinda thinking about what I wanted to share. I’ve been doing a lot of scholarship writing recently. And so I’m as I’m doing the scholarship writing, I’m also really honing in on what’s my story, especially, what do I share publicly?
And I really appreciate just the safe space that you two have created in feeling that trust and that safety, to be able to open up, to share my story and to also know which I think is really important that there are like, I feel like it’s for everybody, but because we are in a queer space and especially like an LDS, queer space, that that we have those boundaries of, Hey, you, you don’t have to say anything you don’t want to, and that safety is there and it’s okay not to share all of your story.
I love that we start with queer joy like that, that I think to me is so important because there’s a lot of queer pain out there. And so to start with queer joy and then to have the safety net of, you know, share what you want we can edit [00:08:00] what you want and just go for it. So thank you, kate and Colette for creating that safety.
Okay. Queer in 60 seconds. So let’s see if I can do this. I had a friend asked me the other day. They’re like, did you always know that you were gay? And I think I always, I can pinpoint like as a child when I knew, but I didn’t have the words for it. I was in third grade when I wrote my first love letter to a girl. My first crush. I still remember her name. I remember where I was on the playground when I gave her the note with a piece of gum in it. I remember that.
And then that was about the same timeframe and I have this paper somewhere and you need to go find it. But I wrote a letter to my aunt. And in that letter it says something to the effect of I don’t want to be a boy, but I don’t like being a girl. So I guess I will just be a tomboy and I’ll climb trees. And this was a letter I wrote as a little nine year old to my aunt. And so I feel like this is something being non binary. I guess I should back up a bit. Hi, I’m Sam. My pronouns are [00:09:00] they/them and I’m non binary. A little late to the game. But I feel like that kind of is the basis of it, but I didn’t have the words at the time.
I grew up in Utah, born and raised in Utah. Mormon. And there’s some very specific gender roles that come with that. We have really strict gender roles, not just with society, but also within a religion. And so, adding that to some abusive childhood environments. I got married super young. I followed that religious path that, you’re supposed to. Get married young, have kids, and definitely don’t be gay, not allowed.
And then as I was a couple years into my marriage, I had actually written a letter to a friend, oh, about a week before I got married and I just hid it and never talked about it. But that was when I finally was able to first say, I think I’m gay, but I’m getting married in a week. There’s nothing I can do. I’m Mormon. I can’t do anything about this.
Ended up, getting married, having kids, doing that whole [00:10:00] newly Mormon married thing. Moving around, figuring out what you want to do in life. And about five years in realizing that I I’m going to use for these quotey fingers suffered from same-sex attraction and started doing like all the things that you do when you’re in a hetero marriage and you are dealing with that. Praying, fasting, doing more service, being more involved in serving in the church, having more kids, more temple attendance, whatever it took. To the point that it became unhealthy, where it was beating myself up mentally every single day and engaging in self harm behaviors because that self hate was so ingrained, living in a religious culture.
And I got to a point where I was at work one day and I was, I’d been in therapy for a couple of years now to try to deal with the same sex attraction. And I could feel like a new crush starting for one of my coworkers and that was happening [00:11:00] for me. And I was sitting down and I was just having this inner talk with myself and I was like, what would it actually look like to just love myself with this affliction? Like what if I stopped fighting myself? What would my life look like to just love myself this way, instead of continually trying to change and continually having this be a problem?
And that was probably the catalyst that started a lot of things. A lot of change in my life. I ended up getting divorced later that year. And as I was going into the finalization of the divorce, I got a new therapist and I walked in and walking out of that first appointment, I turned back and I think it’s called like a doorway confession or something. I turned back around and I looked at my therapist and I said, so I pretty sure I fall somewhere on the role of gender nonconforming. I don’t know where, but I don’t have time to look at that right now. So that’s going to have to be shelved. And that was like three and a half years ago. So looking at it now over the past three and a half years, especially [00:12:00] with a lot of therapy, but coming to an understanding of what my gender identity is and accepting that.
And then also, even when I did come to that, I needed to figure out, cause I have the label of a parent. Like that to me, is something that’s super important that I choose to show up as a parent every day in the lives of my kids. I have full custody. So I have my kids a lot of the time. And my goal of course, as a parent, is to make their lives better than mine was. I hope that’s every parent’s goal in life is that their kid’s life is better than theirs was. And so I really wanted to make sure it was not going to scar my kids by being like well, I’m not your mom anymore.
So that’s, that was a lot of just small family talks that we had to do and have to figure out what was going to work. Cause they, they were definitely younger at the time. And as they’ve grown, like we continue to have these conversations. I’m still mom, but as they’re growing, they introduced me to their friends as their parent. At home, they’ll always call me mom. And it’s not something that bugs me because to them, that is who I am.
But it [00:13:00] has been a real learning curve for our family to figure out what does it look like to have a non-binary parent? What does that mean? As far as, especially as societal gender roles are concerned. Went through a big learning curve with that and it wasn’t, I think it was only recently, it was back in December actually that I came out publicly as Sam and with they/them pronouns.
So that’s that was more than 60 seconds, but yeah that’s a really brief cliff notes version.
Colette: Oh. So much to dive into, and it really has been amazing since I’ve known you Sam for three years now and seeing this journey of you not really leaning into the non-binary identity, and then finally coming out like your close friends knew you as Sam for the last several years, but to then be out publicly, you came out on New Year’s Eve. You said going into the new year, I want people to know me and including the Dr. Seuss. I am Sam illustration.[00:14:00]
Sam: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I think I did not realize what I was getting myself into when I said that. When I was like, this is going to be my year. I really didn’t know what I meant when I said that. Cause it’s been a crazy year. Just coming to the realization and I feel like a part of this actually has to do with redefining gender roles and what that kind of means to be a non binary parent. Wanting a different life for my kids, and then going for that.
I think a lot of times, especially in society and especially in the LDS culture, that is what providing for a family is something that we leave to the men. Like that is their job. And when you have even in families that are all in, maybe it’s a heteronormative marriage that is still if you have the wife who’s working outside of the home and the husband, who’s a stay-at-home dad. Like even that is considered weird, even if they’re a healthy family unit.
And to deconstruct that a little bit, I think I was waiting for my [00:15:00] youngest to go into school full time before I would take care of myself. And that was because that’s what we’re taught to do. If you’re a mom, you sacrifice, you are the one who stays home. You’re the one who gives up their dreams. You’re the one who gives and gives and gives because that’s what the gender roles are in the church.
In January, I hit a point where I realized that I needed to provide better for my kids. And in order to do that, I had to change a lot of things. I had to be actively looking for a stable home environment for my kids. So we bought a house. I needed to actively be pursuing a higher education so that I could get a better job so that I could provide for them. In the middle of summer semester with SUU right now online, and then we’re moving to Cedar City in a couple of weeks and I’ll continue there to get my college degree. So I’m really excited about that.
But Yeah. when I came out on New Year’s Eve and was like 2022 is my year and I’m showing up as me, I didn’t realize like how much work it would entail to show up as me.[00:16:00]
Colette: Yeah. You’ve had to do a lot of really hard work for sure.
Kate: I would like to talk about this moment that you say you come out right before you get married. Is that the first moment that you say to yourself too, I’m gay?
Sam: I think that was the first time I had written that down. Yeah. So I had a lot of those little moments of like writing a love letter in third grade or writing that letter to my aunt. And growing up, gay was not a word I had language for. I didn’t know what that meant. It might be a parental thing or environment thing. First off, sex is never talked about. Attractions never talked about. You get to go to, if you’re AFAB, you go to your young woman’s class and draw your pictures of your perfect boyfriend and who you’re going to marry and list all their qualities on the back. I specifically remember one instance where it’s like, they use little like cutouts that you like glued on. So you could pick the hairstyle and the hair color and [00:17:00] like create this little paper doll boyfriend. And that’s the extent. Along with, but don’t have sex before you’re married. And if you do anything to elicit those feelings inside of yourself then you’re evil.
And holy crap, what feelings are we talking about? Please give me some language because you’re saying don’t elicit feelings. What feelings? Like, tell me, walk me through what those feelings look like, because I don’t know. And so having grown up in that environment, I think it really, there is an emotional growth stunt that happens. I feel like growing up LDS, growing up Mormon, there’s so much that we don’t learn about because a lot of the parenting, especially like the morals of life is left to Sunday School. Is left to young men and young women’s teachers. And if you got that in your household, that’s wonderful. And that’s amazing, and that is not normal for a Mormon background.
So I think for me, in that [00:18:00] instance, it had been a couple years. There was a lot that was going on in my environment, in my family. And it was one of those you say yes to someone who asks you to marry you. And because that’s what you’re supposed to do, you’re supposed to get married. You’re supposed to grow the kingdom of God. I’m sorry. Sometimes I get a little snarky. I gotta make sure it’s not coming across the wrong way.
But yeah, I think I had a realization. I was probably about 15 or 16 and I remember I had this best friend and of course I had a crush on her, but I didn’t understand it. And at 16 here I am walking home from high school and all of a sudden I was like, oh shoot, this is a crush. We’re talking about what crushes feel like. I’m listening to her talk about her crushes on boys and what they feel like. And I’m like, I feel this way for you. And that was really hard as a 16 year old to come to grips with. Because all of a sudden I recognized, like I could pinpoint all these things in my life that kind of came together and I’m like, wait a second. I’m gay, which means I have [00:19:00] same-sex attraction, which means I’m going to hell. Like all these things that lead up to going to hell and being evil and having these evil tendencies. And at that point along with some other reasons, but I didn’t talk for awhile. I ran into this friend later a couple years later and they’re like, oh my goodness, you’re talking. Because when they knew me, I was just very quiet. I was afraid of myself. I was afraid of my environment. There was a lot of things I was afraid of. And the only thing I could think to do was to close off, to not speak, to keep myself safe.
And so, yeah, the week or two weeks before my wedding, I was feeling really fearful going into the wedding. And so I sat down and I wrote a note. And as I was writing that kind of, that was the first time I’d written out. I liked girls like that. Okay. Besides the third grade letter. But that was the first time I had acknowledged to myself, like I have an attraction towards women and this is scary and I’m getting married and I don’t know what to do about this and I’m [00:20:00] Mormon, so I can’t actually be gay. So what does all this mean? And then it I hid the letter. I actually I hid it in like a picture frame of like Jesus and the little children cause I wasn’t sure what to do with it. Like I was like, I didn’t want anyone to find it. And so I was like, where is no one going to look? But because I couldn’t get rid of it. Like it was sitting there staring at me in the face and then I just didn’t speak about it for five years. Like that just became a part of me that just went into the closet and I never brought up.
Kate: Wow. I think that story is going to hit home for a lot of people. I think that people will recognize themselves in the story. I hear you speaking and see myself as a 16 year old. I was walking with my friend and not thinking I have a crush on you. I was thinking I’m feeling feelings that I’m, I cannot I, how do I shut off what is making all of these feelings come up? And I didn’t let myself get to the point where I was like, yeah, this is what a crush is, but everything that you’re talking about, [00:21:00] I think that lots of us experience and feel. So when you did get married, you never came out to your spouse. After that, did you show him that letter?
Sam: We did talk about it about a year in term of marriage. I’d found the letter. We were redecorating a room and I found it and I kinda just showed it to him and we never really talked about it. I was in therapy on and off during those five years, but that about a five-year mark is when I had another friend where I was like, oh, I’m developing, like I’m older now, so I have more words. I have more language. I understand what’s happening. So now I gotta go to therapy to get rid of this. Like now I’ve got to get this out of me now that I can acknowledge it, that I’m suffering from same-sex attraction. Now I’ve got to fix it. And at that point that’s when it was part of our discussions a little bit more, it was mostly just between me and my therapist at the time.
And that poor therapist, she was so great. I think a lot of times we hear [00:22:00] about therapists, especially through LDS Family Services or something, where there is a lot of conversion therapy out there that happens. There’s a lot out there that is really damaging and detrimental. And so if you’re LDS and you go to your Bishop and you say I’m suffering from same-sex attraction and they’re like, great, let’s go to therapy, go to this therapist. There’s a lot of harm that usually comes from that therapy. This therapist was the opposite. She was so done with my terminology. It’s not same-sex attraction. You are gay! She was trying so hard to help me understand, like it wasn’t anything to be ashamed of. And it wasn’t something I was ready to hear at the time, because having been so steeped in religion, like I was not ready to hear that how I felt was okay. I wasn’t ready to learn that I could trust myself and my feelings because we’re taught not to trust our feelings. We’re taught to shut off our feelings and to leave our experience to being judged by somebody else who doesn’t even know us personally.
Kate: Wow. Wow. You’re touching on so many crucial [00:23:00] points that people are gonna, people are going to tap into. Yes. Conversion therapy happens. There are many places that the bishops will send you to that are not going to be safe. So I’m so grateful that you found somewhere safe.
How did you, was it just like a lot of sessions that helped you get there? Was it your therapist that really helped you get there?
Sam: I, so she worked with me a lot to deal with a lot of some childhood trauma and cause in my mind, at the time, childhood trauma equaled being gay. I feel like that’s also an understory that we have in the Mormon culture is that, that is what causes you to be gay.
Colette: And can we refute that for a minute? Because if we look at statistics, how many more people would be gay, if that was the case.
Sam: Ouch, but that’s so true. That’s so true. And that was something I’m going to jump ahead for a second and I’ll come back. That was something that when I finally got to the point where I could look at my gender [00:24:00] identity, it wasn’t, okay. Now that we’ve dealt with my therapist, that is at this point in my life right now, presently, it wasn’t ever a conversation of, okay now that we’ve dealt with all the childhood trauma, and now we’re going to deal with gender identity. It was, we’ve been working on all this trauma and as it’s been resolving, do you still feel like trauma is what caused you to be queer? Because I think you already know, like you are the, have the knowledge that you already knew, when you were little, that you didn’t want to be a boy, you didn’t want to be a girl and you’re stuck in this body that doesn’t work for you. And it had nothing to do with the trauma.
So jumping back to the therapist I had at the time. She, because of course, I’m still in this paradigm of, I’ve got to be religious. Like I’ve got to go to the celestial kingdom, I’ve got to get this out of me. Like, I will just suffer with this for the rest of my life, if I have to, if it will get me to the celestial kingdom. And so we’d been [00:25:00] working through some childhood trauma and we always kept coming back around to being gay or queer.
And she, at the last session I went to with her and I left because in my mind I was doing my own conversion therapy. And even though I was with a therapist who was not adding to it at all, because of the religious trauma and the religious culture, I myself was creating my own conversion therapy in my head. And so she said, She was really frustrated with how I was arguing with her, which I mean, granted, she was right. But I kept coming back with, what about the celestial kingdom? What about, being a mom and a wife? What about I have to conform? And she threw her hands up and she was like, if you would just leave your husband for one night and go to a gay bar, you would realize you are gay!
And I of course went home and I’m like, I can never go back. She’s telling me to leave my husband. She’s telling me to leave my religion. She’s a horrible therapist. I [00:26:00] can never go shout out to my old therapist. You were right. I’m so sorry. It took me so long to get there, but that’s kind of where I was at that point was I was so determined to be perfect. Cause I think that’s kind of an underlying role in all of it, that perfectionism. And it doesn’t just hurt the queer community. It hurts everybody, but especially when your very identity is tied up in not being perfect. I think that’s some damage that happens.
Kate: Definitely. I would like to unravel some of the things that you’re talking about here, because I think that there might be people who think, wow your therapists has really pressured you to come out. It seems like,
Sam: No, she, she was good.
Kate: Yeah, it’s to me, it’s remarkable that you could find somebody who was able to do that in Utah, especially and feel, and you feel [00:27:00] safe with that person too, because I think it’s hard when you’re growing up a Latter-day Saint to be vulnerable, especially in therapy, and stuff like that. But I think what’s really crucial and important about what you’re saying is that you were telling your therapist what you felt and how you were, and your therapist was just regurgitating those things like that means this. And then you were
Sam: was giving me language.
Kate: Yes. And you were saying, but I have these expectations that I have to uphold because there is a structure around me that tells me if I don’t, I’m not going to be with my family. I’m not going to heaven. All of those sorts of things. And I think it’s important to unpack that because we have to recognize that this pressure is the thing that needs to be alleviated, not the, she was giving you the language needed to be there. And it just wasn’t there.[00:28:00]
I liked what you had said earlier about you, you were talking about something along the lines of, what does this mean? Where we aren’t given the language within Mormonism to talk about certain, especially sexual type conversations. And I was, I know exactly what you’re talking about. If you go to the Strength of Youth pamphlet that we grew up with it, it gives you these really vague things to talk about. Don’t arouse feelings within yourself. That’s what it says, something along those lines. And you had brought that up. If you don’t have the language to talk about that, you’re not going to know what that means. And a therapist has the chance to give you that language and understand what it is we’re talking about and how you can feel about it, not how you should feel about it, but how you can feel about it.
Sam: Yeah. And that’s been a huge learning curve for me to not judge how I feel. Because I think that’s probably in that sense [00:29:00] of talking about the Strength of Youth pamphlet. Cause that’s what it is. This is a template for how you judge how you feel. If you feel one way, here’s how we’re going to judge you. This is how you should judge yourself. And it’s almost like it’s becomes a real part of our DNA. It becomes part of our mental and emotional DNA to judge ourselves based off of our feelings that we might not even have words for.
And I think that’s something that’s so critical, even for someone who’s heteronormative. That it is that, that, that is still there. That’s not just an LDS queer experience. That’s something that everyone who grows up Mormon experiences. Is that judging how you feel without even being given the language of what you’re feeling.
I think it’s one of the reasons why my parenting with my kids. I heard a phrase the other day. I think it was probably Brené Brown who said, this is the normalizing generation. We’re going to normalize the heck out of everything.[00:30:00] And for me it’s it’s the idea of removing shame, give the language. So that language is there. The language has to be there because if you don’t know what you’re talking about, then there’s so much confusion and it creates unclear communication. Cause that can happen. Clear communication can happen even in writing. So if you have the Strength that Youth pamphlet, you have unclear communication that’s happening right there.
And I love I’m so grateful for that therapist for giving me the words and for being very clear in what she was saying, like it, wasn’t a, I’m going to beat around the bush and say maybe have you thought about what do you think it was what you are describing, is this. Here’s a label. Here’s a word, here’s a phrase of what you’re describing to me. And here’s what it’s, here’s what people, normal people would call that. I say normal people, because I feel like when we are not given language, when we’re [00:31:00] not given when we’re almost in a way secluded from the world, then we lose out on being able to connect with other people. Everyone becomes others and we lose out on so many important connections.
Kate: Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. Why do you think it was important for your therapist to describe this as gay, rather than something else? Especially same-sex attraction.
Sam: Oh oh, okay. Like I’m worried that what I’m going to say over the next little bit, it might be controversial. So there’s your warning. But I feel like same-sex attraction is almost a damaging phrase. And I recognize that’s can come across as harsh because that’s something that a lot of people feel safe to attach to, especially when you’re first coming out, when you’re first coming to grips with I’m in Relief Society and I’m sitting behind someone and, oh my gosh, like [00:32:00] I am attracted to them, but not even being able to say that to yourself. Like the idea of same-sex attraction feels a lot safer than saying gay or lesbian. My, my kids would be like, but mom, technically you are a lesbian. That was my kid’s first reaction when I first came my oldest again, when I first came out to them. Oh. And it’s been like three years and her response was mom technically. But I use queer for myself a lot because I think queer embodies that gender nonconformingness for me.
But in this, in the sense of queer Mormon women or AFABs coming to that understanding for themselves, same-sex attraction is a phrase that the church uses. And using that it’s almost, it takes away from someone’s humanness. It takes away from someone’s [00:33:00] individuality, because you’re saying this isn’t actually who you are. It labels it right in there with it’s a trial. And along that same lines, if it’s a trial or something you suffer with and you have to deal with, in that sense, it makes it easier to say, this is evil, this is wrong. So if we’re using the term same sex attraction that you suffer with, I suffer with, I deal with same sex attraction. It’s inadvertently saying I deal with something that is evil and makes me less than perfect and takes away from my worth, from my inherent worth. Whereas I feel like being able to come to a place and say, you know what? I accept myself wholly as I am. Who I am is enough as it is. And it has nothing to do [00:34:00] with it being a trial who I am is not a burden to me, and it’s not a burden to those around me. And I feel like there’s a very freeing sense in being able to get to that place of no longer seeing it as a problem.
Kate: And that’s what your therapist expressed, too?
Sam: Oh, those are just my thoughts. I think my therapist was having to work with me when I was in the mindset of trying to do conversion therapy on myself. And so she was having to be very blunt because I do think for as much as other people provide outside conversion therapy, when we grow up in a certain culture and a certain expectation it is set up in such a way it’s it is, again controversial, it is a cult-like mentality that then teaches you to do it to yourself. At some point, there is not a person in charge that has to continue to feed you these [00:35:00] lies because you will do it yourself.
Kate: What you’re describing is actually something that happens in major stifling ideologies. And one of those ideologies I study is that in the Soviet Union and trying to make yourself more Marxist. And what you’re describing happens in the Soviet Union too, people journal, writing and saying, I need to have control over myself and they call it willpower. Which in the church we use too. You need to have more willpower. The idea that you’re enacting this ideology. You’re very entrenched in the ideology and you need to enact it for yourself. I see a lot of similarities between these things.
Sam: Yeah, I think that’s probably why I don’t like the term same-sex attraction the most is that it is teaching you to continue to demean yourself.
Kate: Can I pause here and ask Colette, did you identify with same-sex attraction? I never [00:36:00] identified with same-sex attraction, so it wasn’t a thing for me.
Colette: No, I don’t think I did because it was so quick and me going, I’m straight, I’m straight. I’m straight. Yeah. I’m straight, but I’m in love with this woman, but I’m still straight. I’m straight. I’m straight. I’m straight. To maybe I’m bi. And then that lasted a week and then I was like, no, I’m gay. So I never, but that doesn’t eliminate, I really want to talk more about this self conversion therapy. We’ve talked to other people about conversion therapy and things they’ve gone to, but I don’t think we’ve talked much about the self conversion therapy and what that’s like. And so I’d love to maybe have you talk a little bit more Sam about what that was like in your mind if that’s okay.
Sam: Yeah. And I’m realizing that it can sound like it probably sounds a little out there because we do so attach to the idea of conversion therapy, being what other people tell us, what other, go home and read The Miracle of Forgiveness, or, deny yourself how you’re feeling. And we go off, down that road.[00:37:00]
But the idea for me of like self conversion therapy is just being steeped in self-hatred and not being able to accept myself, not being perfect enough, whatever it was that I wasn’t enough, then I needed to do better. I needed to fix myself. I needed to heal myself. I needed, I was responsible for taking care of me because I was the problem.
And I think that’s the baseline for creating an environment in our minds of self conversion therapy, because. One thing my present therapist and I have been working on a lot lately is this idea that everything is a choice. And I think I really fought that at first. Like I remember the first time she told me like you have a choice here in this. And I was like, no, I do not. It was like, it wasn’t even related to being queer, but this idea of choice, especially especially I think for me, at least in the sense of being a victim of childhood abuse, the idea that I had any [00:38:00] choice in the matter just felt almost invalidating of what had happened.
And it took a while to be able to understand inside of me that my thoughts and where I allow my thoughts to go or my choice. And even when I’m triggered, it is my choice of how to respond. And that doesn’t mean that how I choose to respond is right or wrong. I can choose to say, Okay, I’m triggered. I need some space from people, I can choose to say I’m triggered and I need to go throw rocks cause I’m angry. Or I can be like, wow. I was really triggered in that moment and I chose to yell. That’s my choice. It’s still my choice. And coming to an acceptance of my responses and my reactions, both of those being my choice was something that took some time.
And so it’s something I’m still sitting with this idea of self conversion therapy, but because that’s what it was. I was not taken away to some camp in the [00:39:00] middle of the Utah desert and deprived. I did that to myself. I deprived myself of my feelings. I deprived myself of happiness and joy because I didn’t believe I deserved it.
Colette: And you said it might seem out there, but I think for those of us that are queer, that’s not out there at all. Like I completely relate. I did have some mild conversion therapy from a therapist when I was still not even identifying as gay. And I think I’ve talked about that before. I’m like, how different would it have been if I had had a therapist like yours being like, have you considered what this might mean?
The self conversion therapy is so real. You were saying earlier, the idea of these things are bad and me internalizing it as that means I’m a bad person and bringing on that shame. I just really appreciate you sharing your experiences with it, because I think it’s something so many of us can relate to, but it isn’t talked about much.
Kate: I think also you talked earlier [00:40:00] about the self-sacrifice being a mother. Once you enter into a marriage and once you become a parent you universally, you all, everyone there within Mormonism, there is this culture of you are supposed to sacrifice everything, including yourself, who you are, for your children. So there’s this added layer that I think that it sounds to me like same-sex attraction was a way for you to talk about that heavy responsibility, I imagine you felt as a mother, as a parent and as a spouse as well.
Sam: Yeah, and I kinda, I want to take, go with that for half a second, because I do think the way that we have gender roles in society, and then the way that those are really hammered home within church culture, how that plays into, I think, especially the experience of [00:41:00] Mormon assigned female at birth people, whether it’s nonbinary or trans or lesbian that, because of that in particular the gender roles, I think that really affects a lot of the inner need for perfection and for self-sacrificing that adds to just that, that mindset of self-sabotage, really. Of self-hatred.
It’s always a journey. It’s never a Woo-hoo, we’ve reached an end point. I understand everything. I, it was, I think it was just this past Mother’s Day where I was really sitting with a lot of how I feel about being a parent and how that used to look and how it looks now. Because even after going through the divorce, it took some time to deconstruct from what I expected, gender roles to be. The ways I expected my ex to show up in my kids’ lives. The way I expected [00:42:00] co-parenting should go. The way I expected myself to show up and still manage. And this is the big thing I had to learn. I was still trying to manage my kids’ relationship with their dad. And I feel like that is something that a lot of moms and wives do is they manage a lot of the emotional labor that happens in the house. But that also includes the relationships that people within the house have with each other. And that includes the relationships kids have with their father. And that is oof. That was a hard one to let go of. That was a hard one to let go of, to stop managing that. That was probably my first step.
So if anyone’s looking for a step-by-step guide, let let go of managing my kid’s relationship with their dad and how he showed up. Like I had to let go of my expectations on that. And then I had to reevaluate my expectations of myself. And [00:43:00] especially when it comes to burning out, because I think that’s something that a lot of moms find themselves in a situation with, is a lot of burnout. The moms are in charge of getting everyone up and ready for church in the morning, going to church, having family home evening, having family prayer, along with all the other labors of the household. And so having been divorced, I think really changed that for me, because all the expectations I had of what gender roles looked like, all of that then became my responsibility.
It was no longer a, this is the husband’s responsibility to go to work and do this and this and put food on the table. And it’s the mom’s responsibility and gender role to stay at home and take care of the kids and make sure they get to all their appointments on time and kiss the boo-boos and go to school and be involved in the PTA.
All of a sudden it was all me. And I was doing all of the stuff I had done before, but now I was working. And I was working with children and then the pandemic hit. And that was probably [00:44:00] the biggest thing was I was blessed enough to have a boss that would let me bring my kids to work with me during the first initial, like shutdowns when school first shutdown. But it was, it definitely challenged my experience, myself challenged in my own mind, what gender roles were. And I had to sit with that. And so I think this past Mother’s Day as I was just contemplating in the past, what Mother’s Day looks like. It’s like a break it’s the one day, right? It’s the one day of the year that moms get a break that they get breakfast in bed and it’s like, thanks mom. But now you got to go clean up the kitchen cause we just made a mess of it. And the moms, the initial idea of, I need a break. As a mom, I need a break and this is definitely not to discount at all because as a single parent, like I get that, like I need breaks. There are days where I’m like, I just, I got to go in and take a breath in the bathroom by myself with doors locked and just breathe for a second before I go out and put on not put on a mask, but, have the ability to go make [00:45:00] dinner and to go engage in listening to all the drama about sixth grade or third grade, and just being able to be present for that.
But to have gone from and I don’t know that I can pinpoint when this happened. I think it has just been a gradual shift of, Oh my gosh. It’s Mother’s Day. I just want a break. I’m so tired of being a mom. I just want, my co-parent to step in and parent or even from when you’re first married to now being it’s almost the mindset of, I choose to show up as a parent, to my children every day. And it is a choice and I can choose not to, and it will be a really sucky day for them if I choose not to. I can choose to disengage, but it is a choice and it’s not because I’m the mom or because I have these gender roles. It’s because I’m the adult and I’m the parent. And they are so precious to me. [00:46:00] And there are things they can’t do for themselves. And because I choose to be their parent, then it is my responsibility to do that for them.
And so this past Mother’s Day was probably, oh, so relaxing. It was so nice just to be able to be with them and spend time with them. And what the nice part was, I think was because I wanted to. it wasn’t a, I wanted a break from my kids feeling. It was the, it’s not about yay, let’s celebrate moms. It’s about mom is the label you use for me because you love me. And I love you. And we are in a gendered society, so yay mother’s day. But you are my children and I choose to be in your life. And I want to spend this day with you.
Colette: I seriously love that so much. One of the things I love, knowing you and your children. It’s [00:47:00] amazing to just see how consciously you parent them. And I know I’ve said this to you individually. I’m going to say it on the podcast. It’s very healing for me to see you with your girls. And how you show up for them and you’re there for them.
You made a comment earlier about a lot of parents default to letting the church parent their children, as far as morals and lessons and things like that. And I’ve seen that so often working with so many Mormons and you don’t do that. I was there the other day when your nine year old had a sex question and I was like, wait, you, you talk about sex? Not that that’s surprising because I’ve known you for so long, but just how normal it was and how you do just consciously show up and how you wanted to spend Mother’s Day with them. And you just had a really nice day at the park, and it’s just, it’s really beautiful to see how you do choose to continue to show up and provide for them. I know we sometimes say provide that’s the husband’s role, but you provide, [00:48:00] protect. What other the other P is for from family proclamation. And you nurture, you bring everything for them.
Sam: Thank you. I appreciate that. I, it’s definitely something and it’s, again, it’s a journey to make sure that I am not basing my worth off of just being their parent, but it is something that I hold really special to me that I am their parent and that I get to do this. These are little tiny humans that I am responsible for and they are, they’re really amazing kids.
Yeah. the whole, the sex conversation. Oh, we have a lot of those. We have, and that kind of goes back to giving the language. I definitely, that is my goal is to give my kids language so that whatever they need to talk about, they at least have the language for. And it can be for an emotional conversation that’s happening with them and their friends. It can be about sex. It can be about their bodies. And there are times where I’m like, holy cow, [00:49:00] this is a really deep conversation. And I don’t know that I have the capacity for it because they’re asking such good questions because they have the language. And they’re not afraid to ask because they know how to. And I think that’s part of having the language is if you know how to ask, you don’t have to be afraid to ask.
Kate: Yeah. Isn’t that interesting that within Mormonism, we have so much language that is just Mormons. Like I wrote a post the other day that was about the divinely inspired constitution. And somebody said, that’s like the most Mormon thing, you know, you could ever say is like, yeah, they said, actually you’re Mormon showing. And I was like, yes accurate. So we have our own language to talk about Mormonism and we get that language from our leaders. And it’s so interesting that around really important topics like sex or like gender and lots of stuff that are really important, that you can find them the Strength of Youth that it’s so vague. That the [00:50:00] leaders then go, okay, this isn’t our area, but we’re going to hand you this manual and run with it. You go with it, whatever direction you want to go when everything else is so in Mormonism is given all of this other language that when something is presented to us, so vague, vaguely that we just go, I don’t know what to do with this.
I would like to talk about how you get a divorce. You are becoming this dual parent. You’re given these dual roles and also discovering your gender and the language around your gender and those things happening simultaneously. But I think that people who don’t talk about gender as often as maybe Colette and I do, Sam and I do, that they might think that non-binary and those collapsing gender roles [00:51:00] are like one and the same thing, but those are two separate things that are happening for you just simultaneously. Can you talk about that?
Sam: Yes. Oh, and that’s, again, it does go into the, this is all still a journey. Because where I’m at now, I feel like to be dealing with gender roles, I think that is definitely something that is a big discussion right now within like the lbs feminism community. Like gender roles is something that’s huge. And it’s almost like it’s like a pendulum, like we’ve been over here in the patriarchy for so long and there’s so much we’re missing out on, but it’s almost like that we just swing over to the other side when we’re talking about like the matriarchy. There’s gotta be a middle.
Actually. Okay. Like jumping ship for half a second and getting vulnerable here. So I did a thing last year where I sent in a bunch of poems to a publisher and I just heard back from them that they [00:52:00] didn’t accept them so I can read them. Because they’re not under contract. But I wrote a poem about that because there is, there’s not a middle. Actually wrote two poems. I’m trying to decide which one to read. I’m going to go, I’m going to start with this one. I call this one Self Hatred. And this kind of ties back into the idea of inner conversion therapy, that self-conversion therapy.
If my hate is strong enough to destroy my body then maybe my hate is strong enough to destroy a binary system
A system that said in utero I was male and a birth I was female and in my soul
In my soul I am neither
A system that tries to take me and fit me into a box that my body can not fathom but still tried to make exceptions for
Tried to conform
Tried to follow
A system
A system that holds no space for me
If my hate can destroy my body, then maybe, turned outward, it can destroy
Demolish
Dismantle
Impossible norms
Maybe
As I reject the hate that has infused my body with compassion as it deteriorates,
maybe it isn’t too late
Maybe the space I give myself I also give the world-
To grow in truths
To question
To be whole, all parts of me, all parts of the world, the pain and the relief and the in-between
Somewhere there
Is the space for me
Somewhere in the mess is calm within
Kate: Yeah, we have to pause before the second one. Cause I’m not going to be able to handle the second one, one moment, please.
Sam: Yeah that I think is a really good. For me at least, it’s an insight into me of where, how it feels to be not gender conforming in a binary world. As we’re talking about gender roles, that right there is the gender role is here or here, but I’m here. And first off I need y’all to catch [00:54:00] up. But secondly, I gotta be nice. Tell the world let’s catch up there. And I think we’re getting there. If we’re going back to talking about the patriarchy and the matriarchy, like we’re here and we’ve swung here, like this is where we’re on the upswing to the matriarchy, especially like within an LDS sense of, I want to use the word and I might be using it out of context. Like almost a liberation we’re liberating ourselves from the patriarchy, but in the process. We’re ending up. I’m using body language that I recognize it’s not coming across in the podcast. I have my hands up demonstrating a pendulum. And so my left hand is up high and it’s like the patriarchy. And you’re imagining like a ball swinging between the two of them. Cause on the other side is matriarchy and that’s kind of in my head. That’s what gender looks like. As far as if we’re talking about a space of healthiness, even.
Kate: Sam, you’re speaking my language. You’re making me [00:55:00] pretty emotional. I got very immediately got goosebumps because honestly I was looking for a lot of queer joy this week because there was a lot of queer pain because I felt like as a gender non-conforming person, it is so hard to constantly have to communicate your gender to other people. And then to hear somebody explain my gender back to me in such a beautiful way, when I’ve felt like I’ve been yelling and screaming at a wall. And that’s what that poem is too, right? Like it’s, I’m screaming at this wall and eventually that wall is gonna fall. Eventually we’re going to be able to get breakthrough, but for right now it feels like so much work and so heavy. So thank you for that because that’s how I feel.
Sam: Yeah, you’re welcome. It’s a hard place to be. It’s something that I struggle with too, because.[00:56:00] For our trans community, gender is such a vital role. And to be non-binary for me, my experience is that even within the queer community, I get mis-gendered. Because I am, I’m not trans. I don’t want to be boy, but I am not lesbian because I’m not female. And so there is this weird, awkward space to sit with and to sit in and to live in. And at the same time to hold space for people where gender is so important to them and that holding that space open of acknowledging and respecting and validating healthy gender roles and healthy gender identity, while At the same time sitting there going, but the way that the system is set up is a binary and it is to create oppression.
Kate: Very well said. [00:57:00] I think that I’ve recovered enough to hear a second poem.
Sam: Okay.
Colette: I do have one question though before we jumped into the poem. And I don’t know if you want to elaborate on this, but in utero, I was a boy.
Sam: Oh, so funny story. Yeah it, it is kind of a funny story. Ultrasounds were not what they are now and the ultrasound from when I was in utero was read as me being a boy. And so my name that was picked out for me was Matthew. And so it’s something that has also been like, just part of accepting myself and my identity and just has added to kind of my own path of figuring out who I am. But yeah, that, that story is definitely maybe one day I’ll write a book about it.
Colette: You have so many books to write already.
Sam: I do. I do.
Colette: I just thought that was an interesting thing. That’s not everybody’s [00:58:00] non-binary experience, but I thought that’s an interesting part of yours.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s, and it’s almost like it would be a non-issue except that as we look at a binary world, it’s not because from utero, we are gendering. We are, is it a boy? Is it a girl? We’re having gender reveal parties. We’re gendering from before birth in this society and in this culture, and we’re imposing these gender roles already. And so to be in a place where I’m questioning gender roles, it just almost gives me a sense of freedom to be able to question that for myself. I could have been a boy. What does that look like? Is that how, and it was also helpful for me to be able to ask myself that question. Did I want to be a boy? If I could have been, would I have chosen? And to be able to be like, no, I don’t actually I, no thank you gender. I don’t choose you. That’s my experience. This does not spark joy. It can go out, but [00:59:00] that’s me, but I’m living in a binary world. And so how do you toss out gender you’re in the system?
Kate: Yeah, and I think it’s important to recognize for people again, who might not be used to these conversations, that how damaging it is to be doing these gender reveal parties and be talking about gender before somebody is even birthed. And that this completely erases intersex people and their experiences. And that is truly damaging. So just want to slip that one in there, too.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I’ve actually, I’ve noticed recently, like when people are asking, oh, so you have three girls that I’m sitting here going, well for now. Like for now, I do. Like it. I, how do I say, but I’m giving space for them to be who they are? Like that could change in five years. I, one of them might come out and be like, yeah, you [01:00:00] know what? So I’m trans or I’m non binary or whatever other language is available by then that they identify with. Even this past week, there was so many conversations.
I overheard a conversation actually between a couple of people and thankfully it was my sister and one other person. And my sister is so great. She totally has got my back and they were like, oh, so you’ve got this many boys in this many girls in your family talking about us as a sibling group. And my sister the term that we use. And this was actually coined by a friend of hers when she was talking to him about me. And then we have another sibling that is gender nonconforming. And so this person was asking my sister, oh, so there’s how many boys, how many girls in the family?
And it was interesting how that question is not something I could have answered. I did not feel comfortable answering it because it’s a question where I have to pull back and be like, All the questions, right? Am I safe enough in this space to come out? Is this a safe person?[01:01:00] Do I feel comfortable sharing my story because it’s going to be a long story. Or do I just give up and be like, we’re in a system. I’m going, just going to answer your, I’m going to answer your question in this, in the system that you’re asking it.
My, my sister is so great. She goes actually I have three brothers and two themsters. And that was the phrase that we use that my sister uses for me. I’m their themster. And so then it created this huge long conversation that I didn’t have to be a part of. I was really appreciative of my sister, just running with that because it made it easier for the person to be receptive because it didn’t feel like I was defensive talking about it or that I was afraid of them. And that they didn’t worry about, if I say something wrong, I’m going to hurt this person’s feelings.
So I was on the outside listening. And then my sister of course, came to me afterwards like, Was that okay? And I was like, that was beautiful. That was great because it’s one way where we can have these conversations of, Hey, gender is more than just boy or girl. And I really appreciated that. But yeah we [01:02:00] do have just how I think sometimes even I don’t realize how damaging it is until it happens. Like I don’t realize myself how damaging it is until someone misgenders me over and over again. And all of a sudden I’m like, whoa I’m really feeling that I’m not even sure what the feeling is yet. I don’t know that I can name it, but I’m feeling squashed. I’m feeling made invisible. I’m feeling put back into this box.
Colette: Thank you for articulating that. I think that’ll be really helpful for individuals that haven’t been in that situation. And I also really appreciate you giving us more language. I think I just saw some queer joy on Kate’s face when you said themster. And I think they’re gonna start using that one. So thank you.
Kate: Yep. Big fan.
Sam: It was so great. I think it, it definitely gave me some freedom when the, when that phrase was used. I was like, oh, that makes sense. Because I don’t have to [01:03:00] be a sister or brother I’m a themster. Yeah. It’s like almost like gangsters. Like I’m cool, now. I need a hat. I need some patches on a jacket or something.
Colette: You’re so queer, you already have those things, Sam.
Sam: Okay. Yes, I do.
I’m going to jump into this next poem and this kind of talks more about like the spirituality and the gender roles within religion. So I call it Enby Spirituality.
As an enby, a non-binary person
One who does not and can not conform to either side of the gender debate
Having massive dysphoria but no bodily envy
Having to heal much in regards to the masculine patriarchal religion trauma
And
Try to find solace in the spiritual feminine
Sometimes I find myself at a loss. A standstill
Where my soul aches for a higher power but my very DNA requires one or
The other
Patriarchy is a male child. Hand fed, gifted, coddled until the one day, with absolute repulsion for the one who has been feeding him, he bites the soft gentle hand that everyday makes him a sandwich, and suddenly he has arrived.
Meanwhile, femininity is a girl child. Shamed and beaten into submission with rules and expectations. Only to serve the male gaze. Only to be used for others. Holding all the emotional labor and yet still with a clean face and dinner on the table, slapped for having opinions.
While we search for feminism without masculine traits, we find a more merciful side of power, more whole
But it is not enough for me.
I want a spiritual home.
A home beyond the confines of gender.
Colette: That’s so beautiful. I am so grateful you’re willing to share your words with us, Sam. You are such a beautiful writer. I’m always so happy when you share different things on social media or just through text or messages to me. That’s so beautiful. And it’s hard when religion is so binary and gendered. And [01:05:00] where do you fit? I think that is a constant question for anyone who is gender nonconforming is where do you fit? And having to make your own place, that’s a really hard road.
Kate: Yeah. Also, I have a lot of language. I have studied gender theory now. I have a lot of language to talk about what this feels like and what it means. And yet your words, the way you can describe it, I haven’t had that experience. I haven’t had that experience of being able to hear that from a place that does touch, like a, my soul or my spirituality, to know my soul is connecting with your soul. We understand one another on a deeper level here than then even just talking through gender theory can, can get at these poems. I think many people will be able to tap into and be like, I get it now. Oh, I see it [01:06:00] now. So thank you for sharing.
Sam: Yeah, thank you for giving me the space to do that. For me, I feel it more than I can describe it. Like it is something that’s felt because there is for me, I’m I obviously, and this is something that maybe should have gone in the 60 seconds, not in the church anymore. I’m not participating in actually is for reasons that had nothing to do with being queer. There were some other things that had happened. And there’s just having grown up in such a structured religion. When I left, I had to put it all down, everything. I had to put religion and spirituality down.
And now, as I’m trying to take it back up and look at it and kind of mold what it looks like for me, because I feel like we, we all have. A spiritual need. There is, there’s a need to connect physically and emotionally, but also spiritually. And when that connection is [01:07:00] gendered, it can be really hard. It can be tough to find.
And I don’t think that it’s a experience that’s only found like in the Mormon church. I think that’s everywhere because spirituality or religion has become part of the system that’s binary and adds to it. That we are left with a space of what does spirituality look like without a higher feminine power or higher masculine power? What about just the higher power? Something that connects all of us. And what does that look like if it’s not gendered?
Kate: Yeah, and I was in a conversation this week. Where somebody was trying to was asking a lot of questions to try to get in touch with what it was that what my experience is like. And it’s hard to describe it. And yet it’s interesting that Latter-day Saints have this experience all of the time. There is getting in touch with something and [01:08:00] knowing something, or being in touch with some sort of spiritual power in touch with the spirit that you cannot describe that you just have to say, you’ll know it when you feel it, you understand like these unknowing things like that’s gender happens in that space too. I wish that more Latter-day Saints could embrace that this is a spiritual journey, much like, not being able to describe Mormonism to somebody. Why do you believe this? I just know it and I feel it in my being. That is my gender, as well.
Sam: I love how you brought that up, because I do think that is that’s, it’s bringing me back a little bit to when I first started accepting my gender nonness. To just know. That was something that my therapist would keep coming back around to was you just know. You don’t have to have a reason why. Trauma [01:09:00] is not a reason why trauma is also not a reason why not. Trauma and gender are totally separate and you’ve always known. It’s something that you’ve held onto through a lot of life changes. Knowing that you didn’t fit into this box and you don’t have to question it. You can just believe yourself. And that was really powerful to understand that I don’t have to be able to describe in any type of logical or scientifical way to somebody, my gender experience. It doesn’t have to make sense to anyone, but me.
Colette: I love that.
Maybe this is changing too much. We can not go down this road, but if you’re willing to share, you chose your name as you embraced your non-binaryness more. You want to tell that story and kind of some of the gender euphoria you may be felt as [01:10:00] you leaned more into, oh, this is my name and this is what it means to me to be nonbinary.
Sam: Yeah. That, that is a story. I feel like that could be like a whole nother hour, so I’ll try to keep it like, not so long. But I, I think as I was coming to understand, asking myself, the questions of gender. And the whole, like in utero, I was male thing. I think asking myself, what does this mean? What does my name mean? Do I connect with my name and how do I feel about myself?
It has been really healing to have picked a new name and to have people calling me by my name. As I’ve been like doing the school stuff, all the, whenever you gotta do legal papers, if you don’t change your name legally, like it’s always legal. And so that’s actually, I’ve noticed that struggle has been coming up lately as I’ve had to do financial papers or stuff for buying a house or going to school, there are [01:11:00] times where I have to use my legal name and just how it feels to like, be on the phone with someone and they’re calling and I’m like, oh yeah, I guess that’s who you’re talking to. Okay. But how I think for me, it just shows how much having my name has helped me.
So it, it was I’m not going to try to timeline it cause I’ll end up thinking too much about it. But it was a couple of years ago, and I was on a camping trip with a bunch of friends and we were playing volleyball.
And it, the question of my name had been something I’d been sitting with for awhile. Like I was definitely in a place at that point where I’m like I am not okay. I know that gender is not my thing. This name I have is very gendered and I need something different, but that’s going to require a lot of change. I don’t know if I’m there yet. Plus I have, again, I’m a parent. I’ve got three kids that I need to make sure this process is easy for them as well. Not easy for them in the sense of, I don’t want them to experience conflict, but easy [01:12:00] in the sense of that my emotional stress doesn’t reflect on them and I’m able to hold their questions and their space as they grow, so they’re not having to help me or fix me, but I’m able to be there for them in a way that doesn’t trigger me and it’s safe for everybody.
There was just a lot going on mentally and emotionally surrounding that. So we’re out in the volleyball field and there was, I didn’t know a lot of the people there, but there was a new person coming over, so introductions were going around, but of course they come in from across the field. And what had happened was just a miscommunication. They had asked who’s the boy sitting over there in the corner. And so one of my friends had yelled back, it’s a girl and they heard it’s Carl. And so it was, oh, hi Carl. And, so of course they got closer and it’s like, no, no, no, it’s not Carl. But it was in that moment where I was like, oh, they couldn’t tell my gender from that far away. Okay. Obviously because the default, if you’re not a girl as a boy, yes. That’s still not something I want, but [01:13:00] Hey, this is progress. Like I’m slowly being ungendered.
So later that day we were all swimming and they came up to apologize cause they were like, I’m so sorry I called you Carl. But in the moment they said, oh Sam, I’m so sorry that I called you Carl. And that was again, Sam, wasn’t my name at the time. And everyone’s laughing again, but I was sitting there in that moment going, it was like one of those, if we’re, if we’re going to be Mormon, the heavens parted and the angels light shown down. Oh. Type of moments where it was like, I felt that was inside of me. Something woke up, having someone call me Sam.
And so from that point, I was like, I knew that was going to be my name, but it was, again, just a lot of fear. There was a lot of still some inner work that I needed to work through to get to that point. I told a few friends about it. I started talking about it with my kids, cause I just, the conversations we have, they’re very short kind of like going back to the whole, the sex conversation. I think it was like two or three questions. It was one answer. And we [01:14:00] were done with that conversation, but all the little conversations add up to make it comfortable.
And so that was the situation I wanted to create with my kids is have all these little conversations to add up. So they knew that I wanted to be called Sam and that we were still going to figure it out when that would happen.
And we were at a beach with a bunch of friends and according to all the witnesses I had my back turned. Person trying to get my attention was about six feet behind me and they were yelling my name over again. I didn’t hear anything. I did not hear it at all. And so on a whim, they yelled, Sam, and it was like, again, something inside of me was like, yes, you called? And I like turned and it was like, my body just responded immediately. And I was like I guess I know my name. And my kid was sitting there. My oldest was there at the time and she’s like, yeah, that’s the name that my mom wants to be called. And it was, again, it was just a slow process, opening up to [01:15:00] friends, being like, Hey, this is the name I’m going to go by.
And then for Christmas, I think that year or the next, there was just a family text thread that was going on between my siblings and my mom and me. And, And it’s kind of like, Hey, everyone send the list of what you want for Christmas. And I decided in that moment that I was going to be like I’m going to be vulnerable because I hadn’t really talked to my family about it.
The conversations that we’d had was definitely about me being non binary, but not about like a different name. And it felt really scary to kind of approach my family. And you’ve known me your whole life and my whole life this way. So I just sent out a text that was like, Hey, for Christmas, like here’s the list for our family, but I would really like it if you would just call me Sam. If you could call me Sam for Christmas, that’d be great.
And they were wonderful about that. They really were. And for, I think maybe for the listeners that aren’t queer or non binary that are allies or family members that are listening. Having not been in that space, I don’t know what that feels like. Like I know what it feels like for me being on this end, being like, this is [01:16:00] something really vulnerable I’m sharing with you. And that I think. For the family. I think it’s hard. I think it’s, this has changed and I’m not sure how to handle this. And I don’t know what to do.
My family was great. And there’s never going to be perfection. I think we, we have to let go of that in all sense. And so I don’t expect perfection at all. And there’s always, oh, shoot. I’m so sorry. I said you were my daughter. I should have said my child type of texts that I get every now and then. But they try. And that’s the biggest thing if I like if your family and you’re listening and you’ve got trans family members and non-binary family members, people who have come to you and said, Hey, my pronouns are this. And my name is this. That’s the biggest thing you can do is try.
Don’t not try just because you’re afraid you’re gonna mess up. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes. Don’t be afraid to mess up because the trying is like the biggest thing you can do. It’s one of the biggest shows of love you can do. And even to just come back around and be like my sister, I mean my themster or she, I mean, they. Like [01:17:00] just a quick catching yourself and moving on. We notice that. That is actually huge. Like we, we see it and we might be like, oh, no worries. Thanks so much. What we really mean is I want to throw you a party and like, maybe kiss you and hug you because that meant so much that you would recognize me.
So yeah, that was like the coming out to my family. And then it was again, solely just talking to people at the time. I came out to my kids’ teachers and principal. There were just some situations that were happening in the school and I was like, okay, the kids need me to be out for them in their school to help them and just make everything the same all the way across it needs to be this. And then I. I think my biggest reason I didn’t want them to have to deal with any backlash. And so I wasn’t out publicly.
And then at one point I ended up. I can’t even remember the whole conversation around it, but I ended up coming out to my ex. I think it was probably at a soccer game or something [01:18:00] like that, where maybe it was over text where I just came out to him.
And at that point I was kind of like, okay, my kids, their whole world is, I am the same across all places of their world. Like they’re safe. And so now I get to be in a place where I can choose to come out publicly. It happened inadvertently, I think on Facebook, on one post, someone had, who had knew me as Sam commented on my Facebook posts were like, wait you’re going by this name or this name. And so that was I was like, oh, we’re getting close. Yeah. I should probably say something. And I, yeah, I think it just had to do with going into the new year and being done, like being at a place where I’m like I have worked through my journey with gender and with my gender identity to the point that I am ready to move forward in this journey and looked at this, new stuff. I’ve worked through the trauma as, okay. We’re always working through trauma, but to a point. I’ve worked through the trauma and gotten to a place [01:19:00] where I am in acceptance of myself, and now I’m ready to move forward in this acceptance of myself as a whole human being and see what that life looks like. And so that’s when I came out publicly on Facebook.
Colette: Thank you so much for sharing all that. It’s been really interesting cause I knew you with your birth name initially. You weren’t out to many people and seeing that evolve and you coming out to me saying, you could use the name Sam with me, without explaining your gender identity and then having more conversations. And it’s just been so neat to see you become more you. And I really appreciate your openness and sharing that story with the listeners who I think it will resonate with some of them or I’ll just help them understand more of the importance of someone being seen as who they are instead of who the world thinks they are or who maybe the individual wants this person to be. So thank you so much for that.
Sam: I saw something one time and I’m, I don’t remember where I saw it. [01:20:00] It was the kindest thing you can do for someone that you’ve known before is ask them, who are you now? Tell me who you are now, and be open to hearing that. And while that applies for everyone, I think, especially for people who come out as trans or non-binary, to have that openness, to be able to say, here’s who I am now. And to invite people into that space with curiosity and with openness to say, I want to know who you are now is one of the kindest things you can do. And I think that’s especially true for people who are trans and nonbinary.
Colette: This has been so good. And I know we could keep talking to you for a really long time and, we might invite you back in the future cause I think we’ve just scratched the surface on some of the conversations. But is there anything else you were hoping that we would talk about in this conversation as we wrap up? you check your notes.
Sam: You know that’s what I’m doing as I start moving all the papers around by me. [01:21:00]
I think there’s one story I want to end on and then end with a poem. So this the story of kind of being okay with myself and it was the the first day after my ex had moved out. So when we got divorced, we lived in the same house for a bit. There was, again, there was a lot that happened. There was one day that he moved out and then he had the kids that weekend. And so on this day I came home and I had taken the kids and gone for while he was packing. There was just a lot of upheaval that was going on. So the kids and I weren’t there and I didn’t even bring them home. I dropped them off at his parents’ house and then came home and it was just. It was the realization that all of this was real. I can’t go back. I really actually am queer. I really actually am divorced. I really actually am a single parent and life has shifted in a way. I never, they don’t write about this in the Strength of the Youth pamphlet. Like that’s not in there. There is no guideline on what to do when you get to [01:22:00] this point as a divorced, queer single parent.
And I, pulled into the house. I was parked out front and I was just sitting there looking at the front door, going, I don’t know if I can walk in. And again, like this is still very new, very at the beginning of even broaching the self hatred. Like there’s still a lot of intense feelings that I was dealing with. And a lot of negative self-talk. That was part of my normal everyday life. That negative self-talk, that self hatred, even that still that internalized homophobia and still the internalized, the conversion therapy thoughts that were there.
So I walk, I opened the door and I walked in and it was a very small house. I only made it about five or six steps. I hadn’t even made it to the kitchen. And I could see into the room where my then ex had been staying like the kids and I were in a different part of the house. And I could see that it was empty. All of his stuff was gone. And it was in this moment where I didn’t have, I didn’t have a marriage. So, you know, [01:23:00] not going to make this celestial kingdom cause that’s off the list. I didn’t have a marriage. In the moment, I didn’t have my kids, they weren’t with me. And I felt like I had lost everything that I had spent my whole life in the closet, trying to keep. I had been trying so hard to keep this idea of what should be. And it was all gone right then.
And I was just so overcome, that I just, I hit the floor like, okay. Drop to my knees. I didn’t smack the floor, but I hit the floor. I dropped to my knees and I was sitting there just sobbing. And the only thing I could think to say to myself in the moment, like I put my hand on my heart and I just kept saying to myself, you are enough, like over and over again, you are enough.
And it was so surprising. It was the first time I’d ever really said that to myself, like all alone, without anything else, you are enough. Nothing else is contingent upon your worth, except you. Like, all of that, that was being said to myself in the moment was as I just [01:24:00] sat there going you are enough, I am enough.
And that, as I’ve been doing scholarships and having to kind of write your life story to get scholarships, to go to college, one of the things, there was one question that said, how has being LGBTQ impacted your life? And I wrote a nice long paragraph, but I ended it with being able to come out to stand firm in my own self, to belong to myself fully, despite all the challenges it has brought with it. I am at peace with myself. I am whole, and that is the biggest way that being LGBTQ has impacted my life. I feel free and happy.
And, going back to therapy. The plug for therapy, anyone who is not in therapy should be. Therapists are amazing and great. And this was as I’ve worked through that being, enoughness this journey of the past couple of years of learning to be enough. This is a poem that I feel like pulls all together. It’s called Mine.
There are days
When all I am
Is my own
To no one do I owe
Time
Or attention
Responses
Explanations
Identity
Attraction
My phone is not my secretary
And those I love are in capable hands
Maybe not the best (no one is better than I)
But capable
And I
Am my own self
Now, this phenomenon
Is usually after therapy
When I find it necessary
To come home to me
The strength to set aside everything
I do not want
The time I am fully me
Today I am my own
At home within and without
From here I will never leave but for those I love
Each sight, smell, sound, texture
All is unique to me
Each little detail I hold loosely
Yet it stays with me
I am my own
I am not
A child
A parent
A lover
An ex lover
A secret
A wish
A friend
A culture
A religion
A gender
I am a mixture of blood and soul
A freedom of expression in voice and face and spirituality
I am the trees with bark stripped naked
Caring absolutely nothing of anyone’s judgment
With cold nipples poking through my flimsy top
I am the raven in the midst of the wind
In a world entirely foreign to any human
I am
the Butterflies in the chest, lump in the throat
Watching the ferris wheel
Afraid of heights as I stand on the ground I am the friendliness of the man
on the corner of Fell and Taylor
Waving at strangers
I am the mystery of the underground stairs
I am the burning of lungs with the breath held excitedly in a tunnel
I am the curiosity of a 3 year old in a stroller
I am more than a zen balance
I am imbalanced
I am quiet
I am the lonely figure on a crowded trolley
belaying out a “Weeeeeeee”
As we travel downhill
I am the goosebumps
of being underprepared
I am all the words I do not say
Because I do not have to
I am all the kindness I give
Because I want to
All I am today
Is mine
There will be time tomorrow
For calls
And texts
And responses
And others frustrations that I do not, did not
Drop everything for them today
Fit into their box
There will be time tomorrow
Because today
I am mine
And I think if anything, the hope, what I want to give by sharing my story is just the hope that healing is possible that healing from religious trauma and living in a gendered society, healing doesn’t mean fixed. It doesn’t mean everything is better and sunshines and rainbows, although rainbows are great. But that it’s possible to love yourself enough. That you’ll be okay. That what has happened to you or what’s happening around you does not affect your worth and your worth is your own.
Colette: What powerful words to end on. Thank you so much, Sam, for coming on, sharing your story, sharing your wisdom and your words. I know our listeners will really benefit from hearing it just like we [01:28:00] have. So thank you.
Sam: Thanks for having me.
Kate: Yeah, thanks, Sam. It’s rare on the podcasts I think I’m left pretty speechless, but I would say after this episode, I’m left pretty speechless. So thank you.
Colette: thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. If you’re liking these episodes, we’d love it if you’d rate and review Called to Queer on the podcast player of your choice so that other people are more likely to find us. We’d also love it if you’d share our podcast with a friend who could benefit from hearing these stories. If you want to contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.