Colette: Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, genderqueer and intersex experiences. I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: And I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/they.
Colette: Today in honor of June being Pride month for the queer community, we are talking about pride and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jumped into that, we wanted to start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Kate, what brought you queer joy this week?
Kate: Okay. I was listening this morning to The Faithful Feminist podcast and The Faithful Feminists have had two podcasts recently where they’ve talked about, explicitly talked about, gender and this distinction between sex and gender. And I felt just so seen, because I think even within queer Mormon spaces it’s really hard to talk about [00:01:00] gender and think about gender without, you know, detached from sexuality. And so it was really nice to hear Channing and Elise talk through gender and differences between sex and gender without ever having to talk about sexuality and bring that in and just feel very affirmed.
That was my queer joy this morning, listening to that podcast really enjoyed that. Shout out to The Faithful Feminists. So thank you all for that. All right. Colette though, you have exciting queer joy.
Colette: I do. I went to a queer wedding last night and it just brought my heart so much joy. By the time this comes out, we’ll have released Rachel and El’s episode. And I got to go to their wedding last night. I know Kate wishes they could have been there, but it was really lovely.
And it was the first wedding I’ve ever been to where I didn’t know anybody else besides the couple getting married. And so I was a little anxious, but I just kind of scanned the group and I’m like, Ooh, I want to get to know these people. So I sat by this group of women and got to know them a [00:02:00] little bit and we had a lot of fun and it was just so happy to see Rachel and El so happy. Like there were happy tears on so many faces and just being able to see these two humans be able to declare their love for each other and their intentions to be together forever. And it was just really happy. So that was my queer joy.
Kate: Yay. I love that. And shout out and congratulations to Rachel and El. That’s awesome.
Colette: Yeah. All right. As Kate and I were figuring out what things we wanted to discuss occasionally, as you know, we like to do a topics episode and as we were approaching June, we’re like, should we do some discussion about Pride? And we’re like, yes. We’ve both been preparing for it for a while, but I am really curious to just see where this discussion will go. I think we have some interesting stuff to talk about as Pride month is a very important month for a lot [00:03:00] of queer individuals, but we also know a lot of queer individuals may have a hard time with the idea of Pride month. And why might that be? And why pride is important to both of us. And so I’m excited for this conversation.
Kate: I’m excited for it too. I think that we all have this like really similar experience of not knowing how to approach pride or how to feel about pride when we all come out. And so I think it’s worthwhile to explore that together. I also think it’s really worthwhile to talk about it for allies who are listening, who might not particularly understand what pride is, and it’s not a cohesive monolith understanding of what pride is and how it should function. The queer community is not in agreement over a lot of stuff. And so let’s dive into talking a little bit more about that.
Can we start off by talking about what the heck pride is and where it came from?
Colette: You mean Pride month? Or just the word pride? Either way, I’m here for it. [00:04:00]
Kate: Pride month. I know that as soon as June starts, we start hearing about Stonewall Inn, and we start hearing about these origins of the story, but I think it’s worthwhile here to just get our feet underneath us and figure out what the origin of pride is.
There’s an important, I think an important article on Pride by the guardian that gives a big long history of this called Party and Protest, the Radical History of Gay Liberation, Stonewall and Pride. And so this is a really long article. I highly recommend it. It was written June 25th, 2020, and it talks about these like events leading up to what we now call Pride.
Colette: And we’ll include this on our website, in the transcript link. And maybe in the show notes, if you’re wanting to take a [00:05:00] look at it, listeners, so, listen and read along.
Kate: Great. Okay. Lots of people think that Pride started with the, what we call Stonewall riots. You’ll see a lot of memes that say stuff like Pride started with a riot or something like that. Sometimes it’s called a riot. Sometimes it’s called other things. But it’s not like the beginning of the gay rights movement, not even in the U S not in Europe, but it’s, it is a flashpoint. It’s a big moment within LGBTQ history and there’s a place in New York called Stonewall Inn where their LGBTQ folks were gathering. It actually was run by the mafia. And on June 28th, 1969, police raided the Stonewall Inn and tried to arrest folks which led to a fight between LGBTQ [00:06:00] people and the cops, right?
Anyway, we have to acknowledge that Stonewall Inn is a important, crucial moment. This is why Pride happens in June. It’s important to recognize that trans women of color are featured heavily as starting this movement. I think what’s less known is something that happened three years earlier. Also I believe in June.
Not Stonewall, this is something that there was an event that took place in 1966 in San Francisco. Where in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco, there was a donut shop where folks, mostly LGBTQ folks but often trans folks would meet. Again, there was a cop, a police raid to arrest a bunch of [00:07:00] trans folks. And there, again, some sort of riot, some sort of resistance to the police that took place there as well in 1966.
So there are these moments, these flashpoints where pride and the gay liberation movement starts in the U.S. as saying we do not deserve to be treated inhumanely, not by cops, not by other people. We have a right to stand up for ourselves for just being, right? Being trans people, or being gay people, being LGBTQ in any way. We are not going to go quietly into the night. And that’s what pride is. That’s what we’re celebrating. That’s what we’re commemorating. Are these brave individuals who refused to be taken to who refused to be unseen and treated as less than human.
Colette: And it’s so hard, like just hearing that [00:08:00] is so heavy. And right before this, I was I’m a member of the LGBTQ Affirmative Therapists Guild of Utah. And there are monthly in-services for therapists to be able to attend and learn more about how to better support the queer community. And this morning we had our once a year, we make sure we have an ethics presentation so that we can get our ethics hours.
And so today there was actually an attorney that talked about all the legislative actions happening against the queer community. And so it’s so interesting coming right from that discussion, talking about all this anti queer and especially anti-trans legislation happening throughout the nation.
And then to be coming in here and talking about pride and how some of the same fights are still happening. And I think there a lot of times, is the argument of why is pride [00:09:00] necessary? Like you don’t need to shove your sexuality or your gender identity in our face. And if it’s okay, I actually last year at the beginning of the Pride, I wrote an Instagram post about why pride is still necessary.
And I wrote, and this is not going to be completely updated because this is a year ago and more things have happened. But I thought one way we could start is why is pride necessary? Why are there, what discrimination is still happening to the queer community? And why is pride important because of that?
Are you okay if I read that Kate?
Kate: Yes, please.
Colette: K. We need pride because same-sex marriages only became legal throughout the U S six years ago. And now again, I wrote this a year ago, so now coming up on seven years ago. There are 69 countries where it’s illegal to be queer and some still enforce the death penalty for it.
There are still gaps in employment discrimination, if you’re queer, if the company employs less than 50 people, or if [00:10:00] you’re at a religious institution. Queer youth represent up to 40% of the homeless youth population, as they may be kicked out of their homes for being queer. We need pride because 42% of queer youth say they live in a community that doesn’t accept queer people.
LGBT youth are twice as likely as their peers to be physically assaulted. 92% of queer youth say they hear negative messages about being LGBT. We need pride because there were 37 known murders of transgender and gender nonconforming people in 2020, more than any other year since the Human Rights Campaign started tracking in 2013. We need pride because there’ve been more than 250 anti LGBTQ bills introduced in states across the country this year. And again, that this is last year’s information. There have been more it was really heavy this morning, hearing so much of what is happening to attack queer individuals. [00:11:00]
We need pride because more than 700,000 queer people have been subjected to conversion therapy. We need pride because more than one in three queer Americans face discrimination of some kind in the past year. We need pride because more than half of LGBTQ Americans report hiding a personal relationship to avoid discrimination.
22% of queer adults are living in poverty. Queer people face higher rates of poverty, stigma, and marginalization. We need pride because queer individuals are more than twice as likely as heterosexual, men and women to have a mental health disorder in their lifetime. We need pride because LGBTQ individuals are 2.5 times more likely to experience depression, anxiety, and substance misuse, compared to heterosexual individuals.
We need pride because LGB youth seriously contemplate suicide at almost three times the rate of heterosexual youth and LGB youth are almost five times as likely to have attempted suicide compared to [00:12:00] heterosexual youth. It’s also still legal to use the gay or trans panic defense in most states.
We need pride because 40% of transgender adults reported having made a suicide attempt. 92% of these individuals reported having attempted suicide before the age of 25. LGBT youth who come from highly rejecting families are 8.4 times as likely to have attempted suicide as LGB peers who reported no or low levels of family rejection.
And then I ended it saying we need pride because everyone should feel loved, accepted, seen, and safe, no matter their gender identity or sexual orientation.
So thank you for letting me share that.
Kate: Thank you, Colette, for reading all of that, because those are really heavy statistics, really hard to listen to all of that, because it’s not that it’s gotten better in the past year. And since you wrote that it’s actually gotten worse. And so
Colette: I need to go back and update that for this year’s [00:13:00] pride and it’s not happy updates. Again this training this morning, just hearing, he went through saying, okay, here’s the legislative stuff happening, here’s the judicial stuff happening, here’s the executive stuff happening throughout both Utah and then the nation. And it’s so heavy and it’s really heavy, I think in general as queer individuals, but then especially as a therapist. I have people that come into my office who are impacted by this, it, this, isn’t just some abstract thing. I have those suicidal individuals in my office. Wondering if it’d be better for them to be dead than alive because of these systemic things that are making their life so much unnecessarily harder.
So why is pride needed? Because they need to know that their life is important and they’re worth living, right? This is not some you’re shoving your gender identity and sexual orientation in my face. This is your life is worth living and you are a beautiful [00:14:00] human being, no matter your gender and sexual orientation. And maybe people would argue against that, but I know how long I’ve dealt with suicidal ideation. I’ve dealt with depression since middle school. And it was never as bad as it was as when I started wrestling with my sexual orientation. I don’t know if people can fully understand if they haven’t wrestled with it, how dark and how bleak that can be.
Kate: Yeah. And I think that’s, it’s really interesting that this is how we started out this episode. We talk about our queer joy at the beginning because things get really heavy. And all of a sudden we have 15 minutes of really heavy stuff that you wouldn’t consider all of that pride. Like I’m not proud to tell anybody that we experience suicidal ideation at this level. I’m not proud to tell anybody that these are the statistics that we face or that there’s so much legislation [00:15:00] against us. That is not the definition of pride that we’re looking at and working with. It’s not boastful. And I think that’s a huge misconception about what pride is. I would really like to dive into the definition of pride.
Colette: Yeah. Let’s get some word nerdiness going
Kate: on.
Yeah, let’s get word nerdiness going. First of all, before we jump into the definition of pride, I think as Mormons, we’re so afraid of this word. That we are taught that pride is the worst thing. So maybe you can give us some insights into that background into thinking through this word, through Mormonism, before we adjust to think about what we’re talking about here.
Colette: Yeah, I’d be happy to. For those that don’t know in General Conference April 1989. President Benson, who was president of the church at that time was in poor health, but he wrote a talk that then his [00:16:00] counselor, President Hinckley delivered in conference, and the talk is called Beware of Pride.
And I feel like it’s become a very much culturally accepted thing in Mormonism to beware of pride. To the extent that there are individuals who maybe are afraid to say, I’m proud of you or use the word pride in any context, because in this talk, it comes down very hard on pride.
He talks about how in the premortal council, it was pride that felled Lucifer and three times in the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord uses the phrase, beware of pride. Pride is a very misunderstood sin. Again, he used the word sin. The central feature of pride is emnity. And he comes down so hard on pride in this talk.
And so whether you realize it or not, again, this talk was given before I was born. And so I think it’s just in [00:17:00] the cultural zeitgeist of Mormonism, that pride is a bad thing, avoid pride. And so there’s definitely the idea for a lot of Mormons. And I think definitely some queer Mormons or queer allies that pride is a bad thing, because of this talk and potentially others. But I think. that is the touchstone that kicked off this beware of pride.
Kate: Yeah, I think we also talk about the pride cycle too, right? That’s almost like an every week in Sunday school, beware the pride cycle. And I would venture to say that I think that this is a fair concept. I think that we should beware of pride and be aware of pride. But I also think that’s not what we’re talking about here.
I think we’re operating under two different definitions of what pride is and the people who are the folks who are going to say, we don’t believe in pride, why is that your slogan? Aren’t accessing or [00:18:00] understanding the second definition.
So it’s very easy to find the definition of pride. Just Google it. I’m going to talk about the first definition that pops up when you Google “What is pride?” The definition which comes from I think the Oxford English dictionary, but it’s the first thing that comes up on Google says it’s a noun. Number one, a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements. The achievements of those with whom one is closely associated or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired. And I think that this is what President Benson was talking about. This is what we’re talking about in Sunday School. Don’t think of yourself as better than anybody else.
The second definition is a consciousness of one’s own dignity. You have a consciousness that you are worthwhile and worth something. And in my mind, there [00:19:00] is no doubt that this is the definition that we’re working with when we’re talking about gay pride.
So that’s just like one definition. I am not like a, when I’m going to give a talk in church, break out my Webster’s dictionary. I actually really hate that because I think that those definitions are incomplete. They lack nuance, all of those things. So that’s just like the very basic definition.
Well, I would go to then is etymology. So we don’t know what the etymology is. Etymology is like the history of a word where it comes from. I looked this up because I wanted to see about the etymology of the word pride and cause I’m a nerd. I also wanted to know the Greek word that is used in the biblical context. So if we’re talking about the biblical context of pride, there is not a word that is pride in the Bible that we translate word for word, and like, oh, this is pride. I’m [00:20:00] actually gonna read a little bit about what how we translate pride from the Greek.
So when we’re talking about Greek, we’re talking about New Testament, not talking about Hebrew because I don’t know Hebrew. So we’re going to leave that to the back burner. We’re just going to talk about pride in terms of New Testament. And the word in Greek ancient Greek, it means to show above others, like to be above others.
And there’s a second word and it means to make a smoke. And neither of those words are the second definition of pride. This is like this. If you’re reading that word and you’re thinking, what is the equivalent in English? Oh, pride. That the pride means that same things. So there are lots of different ways to get at this word in the biblical context, but to get at it in the English and the nuance, not every time you find pride, it’s not going to be the same Greek word, first of all. Nor [00:21:00] is it going to mean the same thing? Yeah there’s another way to interpret both of these words, which is to make blind. There’s a blindness that comes with being enveloped in smoke. So there’s a lot of different ways to interpret this word and a lot of different ways to think about it within the biblical context. So we have to give, we have to give this word a lot more nuance.
So if you look up the etymology of where this word comes from in English, it is one of those rare words that is English. That means it didn’t come from Latin. It doesn’t come from Germanic. It comes from old English. It goes from old English to English. And it means if you look up the etymology, there are about 11 ish definitions, including pride in terms of LGBTQ people that has entered into the etymology definitions.
But again, the first two definitions are number one, the quality or state of being proud [00:22:00] and unreasonable overestimation of one’s own superiority in terms of talents looks wealth, importance, et cetera, which manifests itself in lofty airs, distance, reserve and often contempt of others. That’s number one. That is for sure the thing that we want to avoid as a sin, we should not be contempting others or thinking of ourselves as superior in any way. I agree with President Benson, beware of that.
Number two, the second definition is a sense of one’s own worth and scorn for what is beneath or unworthy of oneself, lofty self-respect, noble self-esteem, elevation of character, dignified bearing, and the last thing, a rejection of shame. This is a rejection of shame. Again, there are many different definitions here, including lion’s pride. So this goes through [00:23:00] what this word means in English in a lot of different ways, but what we’re seeing is there are distinctions between thinking too highly of oneself or one’s achievements and thinking of oneself as worthy as a human who shouldn’t experience shame just for being who they are. So that second definition is the one that we’re talking about.
Colette: Can I just say I experienced some queer joy hearing that definition of the rejection of shame. That is a powerful definition to me right now. I feel like shame with society, cultural church context, shame almost seems to be a given for a lot of queer people as part of their journey, the shame of just being who they are. And feeling like they’re not worth a worthwhile human being, that they’re less than.
And we know from research that shame [00:24:00] is incredibly detrimental to mental health and wellbeing. I know that personally, I’ve seen it with clients. And so the idea of pride as rejection of shame, that’s what I want to celebrate. It’s not that I think I’m better than anyone because I’m queer. It’s that I am a whole person and this is part of me. And I’m not ashamed of that. This is me. I think of the song, The Greatest Showman. It’s one of my pump-up songs when I need it of, This is Me. This is who I’m meant to be. This is me. It’s that rejection of pride. It doesn’t matter what other people think or feel about me. I don’t need to have this cultural baggage about being queer. I’m not less than. This is part of me. This is me. And I reject that shame that you’re trying to place on me.
Kate: Absolutely. Again, I’m a nerd. But I was [00:25:00] in high school in the early two thousands. I really liked this punk rock band called New Found Glory. And New Found Glory re-did that song. It’s so good. So if you need a punk rock version of, This is Me, New Found Glory has got a great one. But that is also my pump-up song. And I often cry when I hear that song because I feel so seen. And I think that is what pride is too, is that I want to feel seen for all of me. And yeah.
I wanted to talk about how I’ve heard many Latter-day Saints, once they come out, say I’m not going to do pride. I don’t even want to go to pride. I’m not going to wear rainbows. I’m queer. I don’t need to be queer in that way. So many. And then we, I feel like many of us, in fact, this was me. That was my experience coming out. Go through this transition of baby steps into [00:26:00] what pride is and how we feel about pride. Have you noticed that, Colette?
Colette: Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And now it’s funny because with this group of women I got to know last night, they were inviting me to their book club and I’m like, oh, I’d be happy to host some time, as long as you’re okay with rainbows, my house is rainbow. And they’re like, yeah, we’re fine with rainbow, like inside or outside? I’m like, oh, it’s like me, it’s fine on the outside. Pretty straight passing. But inside it’s very queer, very rainbow,
Kate: That’s awesome. I love that. Straight passing on the outside, but very queer on the inside. I love that. Yeah, I think that I know that you struggled right to embrace rainbows.
Colette: A hundred percent. I don’t know if it was the pride thing that was in my, the background of my brain and the subconscious I’m like, Oh, no, I can’t be proud if it was still just some of that shame hanging on that or just like, yeah, I don’t, I don’t want to [00:27:00] shove my sexuality in people’s faces. I don’t need to put that on anyone, but there was the hesitation a little bit, whereas now I’m like, yeah, there’s rainbow everywhere in my house. I have it at my office. I definitely wore rainbow to the wedding last night. I love collecting more rainbow stuff to have because that’s part of my queer joy is that sort of visibility, I guess. It’s a quick way to signal. And I know some people are like, oh, I hate how the gays co-opted the rainbow. That’s God’s symbol. Like it’s just a happy symbol! Can’t we have it? Can we all share it?
Kate: Oh, my gosh. I haven’t heard that. I could’ve gone my whole life without knowing that’s something that people were saying.
Colette: Sorry.
Kate: Yeah, but yeah, I think that we all go through this phase of I’m gay, but I don’t know how to be like part of that, whatever that is, that seems scary. And difficult. So if you’re at that [00:28:00] space, if you’re in that space, know that’s fine. Like you’re okay to be there for however long you need to be there. And if you never leave that space, that’s fine too. Just know we’ve been there too. Lots of queer, lots of your Instagram friends who are queer and have rainbows in their background have felt that way too. In Romania, they call me the rainbow person that, because my glasses are rainbow, everything is constantly rainbow. And that’s just what I’m known for here. But to me, it’s also, as you say, like a symbol to show people that that’s who, that’s, who I am.
In fact, when I first got to Romania, I didn’t know how it was going to be received. And I have, I think what people, most people recognize me is in rainbow glasses. I took my rainbow glasses off and wore regular glasses. Cause I didn’t know how to proceed here. That is, that was, that took two days to get over. But it was [00:29:00] important to me once I got my bearings to be like, Nope, I am a safe space. I want people to know. I want people to know that this is who I am, and this is something about me that’s important to me.
Colette: It is important. I think it might be interesting for some people to know there is this model of the stages of coming out, which may or may not be everyone’s experience. But one of the stages is called identity pride. And in that they talk about how the idea is the idea of thinking I’ve got to let people know who I am and maybe they divide the world into heterosexuals and queers, and they’re super immersed into queer culture.
But you don’t have to be that in your face about it, if that’s not you. Not saying that if you’re queer, you must have this sort of pride. I just know how liberating it was for me to let go of that shame and to show, quickly convey, I am [00:30:00] a safe space when I am wearing rainbow. When my house has rainbow things, my office has rainbow things. When I casually mention queer related things in conversation. I know some people may not love that idea, but I just think it is important for me to signal that for others, to let them know it’s okay for you to also be proud of who you are. It’s okay to be you here.
Kate: Yeah. And I definitely feel that when I am wearing rainbow glasses. I showed up to the gym of a few weeks ago, I had rainbow glasses on, my rainbow socks on, my rainbow shoes on, all like literally head to toe rainbow. And for me, like somebody approached me and asked me, like they wanted to get to know me. And it was like, oh yeah, we’re having some subtext here about what it was I am presenting. But for me it was like, I’m not going to be ashamed of this [00:31:00] thing anymore. I’m not going to put the rainbow glasses away. I’m not going to shove this part of me into a drawer. This is me and I like me. I like me.
And it’s taken me a really long time to like me and I, and this, if I can put on rainbow glasses every single day, it is an indication to me, a reminder, I like me and it’s okay for me to like me. I ended up for a long time. I didn’t think it was okay for me to like me. I thought I had to like, I don’t know, pretend to like myself or pretend I wanted people to not know that I thought of myself as worthy of anything. Food, even. I had this thing with food, where I was like, I don’t want people to see me eat because I don’t feel worthy of food.
And for me putting on the rainbow glasses is [00:32:00] you’re worthy of basic human care. You’re worthy of. You’re worthy of your humanity. You’re worthy of people taking care of you. And so for me, that’s a huge symbol. It’s not just to express it to other people so that they know that I’m queer. It’s a reminder every single day I put those on, I’m worthy of the air that I’m breathing.
Colette: Completely. And I also view it as it’s not just for me either. I feel like part of my visibility and pride is so that others can feel better about who they are as well. A huge part of my journey was being around queer people who maybe if they weren’t like in your face pride, they were okay with who they are and they liked themselves.
And I, I remember just having this huge cognitive dissonance of like, wait a minute, [00:33:00] you’re queer. And you’re okay with yourself? I don’t get it. Like, how is this possible and how do I get there? And so just seeing other people in that headspace was huge for me in being able to start that journey of being okay with who I was, because they were okay with who they are.
So even if I am not super over the top all the time. Again, I’m pretty straight passing. Just the fact that I can be visible, if that can help someone else, that’s really important to me. And a reason that I show up in pride. I had something I posted on Instagram last year during pride month. It was just the quote. My visible existence is my resistance and that’s, I think a huge part of me showing. Having these conversations with you, Kate, and our guests and showing up on Instagram, my feed is very rainbow. And having my house and my office, [00:34:00] just letting people know it’s okay to be you. I want to get to know you. I don’t want you to have to hide yourself in the closet. Be you and whatever pride means to you, great. But you don’t have to be ashamed of you.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely.
Colette: I don’t know if this could be an interesting conversation or not. Have you ever been to any pride events and maybe like what that was like for you and how that evolves over time, as you became more comfortable with you?
Kate: I love that you’re interviewing me for this. Thank you. I appreciate that. That’s a great question, Colette. Thank you for asking. Yeah, I’ve only ever been to one pride festival. Mostly because I came out and it was a pandemic. Like I didn’t get over my pride hump until into the pandemic. And so no, I’ve never really, I’ve only been to one pride and it was an [00:35:00] awesome pride. It was the best, first pride I could have ever been to. Shout out to Rexburg Idaho last year, 2021. It was their first pride. It was amazing. It was exactly what I needed. I need like small gatherings. I can’t do like super overwhelming big things. So I’ve never been to Salt Lake pride or like LA pride. I needed that like small introduction and in Rexburg. Yeah, but it was amazing. And I, I had a good time, but how about you?
Colette: My first experience with Pride. So I started wrestling with my sexuality end of 2017, beginning of 2018. So my first experience going to pride was June 2018 and I was still living with my parents at the time. And in Salt Lake, the Pride Parade is on Sunday. The first Sunday of June. And I was debating back and forth. What do I do? Do I want to go? I’m not sure. And so I finally remember I woke up that morning and I like snuck out of the house so I could go to the Pride [00:36:00] Parade and Pride Festival. And I was really anxious the whole time. Cause I was still wrestling with my sexuality and I wasn’t quite sure of where I was with the things. And I was so nervous about running into my ex, who wasn’t talking to me and friends were like, you’re not going to run into her. There’s thousands upon thousands of people. And then funny story, I literally almost ran into her and I’m like, of course. That would happen.
Kate: That would happen. Such a lesbian story.
Colette: Oh my gosh. You don’t even know. But it was really fun hanging out with other queer people. And it was really interesting watching Pride and you have such a wide conglomeration of people. I know by the time this comes out Salt Lake pride will have already happened this year, but there still are other opportunities in other cities.
But it was just such a very interesting experience as I was still kind of trying to be like, uh, how do I feel about myself? And seeing people that were [00:37:00] okay with themselves and seeing the wide variety in the parade of people who maybe are wearing a little more scandalous outfits that people maybe think that’s a bad use of pride, to the Mormons Building Bridges, walking in the parade in their Sunday clothes and Mama Dragons, giving out hugs at their booth. And it was just such a wide variety.
And then it was interesting going back the next year 2019. I actually went with that ex and her girlfriend that I had been afraid to run into because lesbians, I’m still now friends with all my
Kate: I didn’t know the story could get more lesbian again. Great.
Colette: Oh yeah. Don’t even worry. I also later went to the wedding of that ex and her now wife. Cause you know, that’s what I do. And it was interesting just feeling more at peace with myself in that 2019 one, because I had wrestled with things and not sneaking out of the house, it was like, oh, I’m going like, this is what I decide to do [00:38:00] with my time.
And then in 2020, of course it was canceled, but my friends and I decided to have our own pride. And so I hosted and that’s where a lot of my rainbow decor that’s still up in my house, came from, I’ve just left It up because it brought me so much queer joy. They put all these crepe paper decorations up that I’ve just left up. Cause it creates this very pretty rainbow crepe paper ceiling, in my high ceilings in my house.
Kate: It is great. I love your rainbow
Colette: Thank you. Makes me very happy. And now, I, again, I’m not sure what’s going to happen this year. I’m going to a queer wedding in St. George the Friday night of pride. And into the Saturday. And then I hope to still come back for Saturday night and Sunday pride here and go to that, but we’ll see how tired I am after the queer wedding. I don’t know exactly where I’m going with all that, but it’s been an interesting evolution just to reflect back on how I felt towards myself and how I maybe show up differently throughout those years, in the way I dress, in the way I talk to people that I just now get to show [00:39:00] up as me.
And I’m not afraid of people thinking, Oh, is she queer? Because I remember my first times being in queer spaces, I tried sometimes to pull the ally card of, oh, I’m a therapist. I want to be a better supporter of queer people because that was safer for me. And now it’s Yeah, I’m wearing rainbow and I don’t care what you think. I have a mug that says I’m the rainbow sheep of the family. And I love it. Anyways, those are some of my thoughts.
Kate: I love that. Can we then talk about what is the pride parade? What is pride month? What has this transitioned into? So in 1960s, this is about gay liberation, trans liberation, and there’s some feuds between the gay men and the trans community and who gets to do what and where do the lesbians fit? There’s always been some contention within this pride movements.
But going forward, I really liked this article from The Guardian because [00:40:00] it’s is pride supposed to be about liberation or is pride supposed to be about celebration? And if it is about celebration, is it supposed to also be for everyone the entire, for all people to join in and including corporations. So pride has become very corporate. We have the, during the month of June, you will see rainbow on everything, corporate, everything. When simultaneously those same corporations are supporting these 300 legislative bills that are being passed across the country that are anti LGBTQ.
So these corporations are making money during pride month off of queer folks buying merchandise while simultaneously using that money to prohibit and legislate [00:41:00] against queer people. So there’s a lot of political stuff that goes into the pride movement.
Also, inclusivity. Are lesbians as welcome at pride as gay men? Are people of color? I think the biggest one right now that we’ve seen within the past few years, especially in Utah, is how inclusive and accommodating is Pride for disabled folks, people with disabilities. Can they participate? Are there enough accommodations for them to be able to participate in festivals and parades and things? And lately, what we’ve seen, is that those accommodations have not been made or been thought about. So there’s a lot of stuff that’s happening within the queer community around Pride and how we interpret it and how we think about it. Do you want to talk about any of those?
Colette: Well, just going off the idea of the different corporations going into pride month, I think it might be a good idea to introduce the term rainbow washing [00:42:00] in case our haven’t heard of that idea before. And it is the idea of corporations benefiting from pride and saying, Hey, we’re inclusive. Look at all of our pride merchandise. And then as soon as June’s over, let’s not care about queer people. Let’s maybe actively fight against their rights. And so being aware of that, that there are definitely businesses that do that. And of course you have every right to decide where you spend your money and how you spend your money.
I saw a meme the other day that was like, if you want to, support queer pride, how about you give your money to me, a queer person, directly instead of a corporation? And I was like, I support that.
Kate: I saw that one, too. I liked it.
Colette: But I’m also like, I’m gonna buy some rainbow staff because I can, and it makes me happy. So that was one thing I wanted to bring up. But I think this inclusivity thing is really important. That’s one thing I know Kate and I really do like to focus on the podcast is [00:43:00] the intersectionality because someone can be queer, but that’s not the only thing about them.
There are so many different intersections that impact their queerness and their identity. And so we love having these conversations with our guests about the intersections that they’re at and how it impacts them and their worldview. And I think we still have a long ways to go with inclusivity. Your point about are lesbian women as accepted in queer spaces as gay men? What about trans individuals? Are they as included? And that’s something I’m wrestling with as I’m trying to figure out how to build community and trying to figure out how do we have inclusive, safe spaces? It can be a tricky wrestle and I hope people are being thoughtful about the decisions they make to be inclusive.
And just check their privilege too. And I know that’s something I’m wrestling with and I’m not perfect at either, because I do have privilege. I am straight passing. [00:44:00] I am a cis female and yes, I am queer, but I have a lot of privilege in other areas, those included in my financial, in my education. Like I do have a lot of privilege. And so I’m still learning to check myself on those things, too.
Kate: Yeah, for sure. I think that it’s really important for us to focus on Stonewall. I think the reason that we think so often about Stonewall and reflect so often on Stonewall is that we have to remember, this is the moment that pride starts and pride starts with resistance to police, first of all. Second off, by trans women of color and actually trans women of color and trans men of color as well. And I think trans men of color often get erased maybe as often as trans women of color.
And so we need to reflect on and pay attention to, first of all, our roots, who our elders are. When we’re thinking about our heritage as queer [00:45:00] people, our heritage looks different than somebody else’s heritage, because we’re not going through a bloodline of our parents or whatever. We’re looking at adopted families that we’re brought into these queer families of heritage. We all go back to queer folks of color who fought for our liberation and actually not just queer folks of color, but lots of folks of color who fought for our liberation who were straight or cis, that whole liberation movement of the 1960s, the queer liberation movement of 1960s, comes with the support and the backing and collaboration with black liberation movements.
And we need to be aware that, that all of our oppression is mixed up together, and we need to be fighting for one another. And that’s also part of pride. Part of pride is gay liberation. Part of [00:46:00] pride is trans liberation, but also the liberation of all marginalized people.
Colette: A hundred percent and we’ve got to work together. I think, sometimes we see liberation or rights as like a pie and oh, if gay men have more rights, that means there’s less rights for me. And I think that is a very hard scarcity mindset that we need to work through and overcome, especially in a capitalistic society.
We have some different barriers there, I think mindset wise. But it’s not a pie. If we all work together, we can all receive the whole pie. But I think so often we’re pitted against each other, almost, of different queer individuals in different factions instead of working together for everyone’s liberation and celebration and lives.
So do you have any thoughts for listeners about if they’re wanting to maybe [00:47:00] lean into pride a little bit more, what they might consider doing?
Kate: Yeah, I think that it’s first of all, important to share the history of Pride. I think no matter how many times I read a Instagram post about Marsha P. Johnson, I’m going to continue sharing it because I think that’s important history. It’s important for us to know our elders. Share those histories of what pride is and where it came from and why it’s important to continue it.
Two, find and support queer artists who are creating these rainbow things. Make sure that when you’re supporting rainbow stuff, if you’re getting rainbow stuff, make sure that at some point you’re getting that money to a queer artist. And perhaps even a queer artists of color. There are many out there you can find on various different platforms. How about you?
Colette: I think first, just like checking in [00:48:00] with yourself and seeing what feels good to you and doing that. You don’t need to be all wearing rainbows. You don’t need to go to Pride if that doesn’t feel good to you. But also not being afraid to get out of your comfort zone. If maybe you’re curious, maybe try going to a Pride event. Maybe spend some time with some queer people. Maybe wear some rainbow or put up some rainbow art in your house or wherever. Because is the discomfort actually something you don’t want to do or is it just conditioning that you need to work through? And so being curious about your experience and experimenting, I think is one way.
I think also thinking maybe going back and listening to Kate, talking about the etymology of pride, the different definitions, and think about what does pride mean to you. And your pride does not have to be what someone else’s pride is. You do not need to have rainbow crepe paper in your house like I do. That is, I mean, I think more people should, [00:49:00] but you don’t have to. And just figure out what works for you and do that.
Kate: Yeah, for sure. I think going along with that, if you’re out, if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking maybe I’m bi, maybe I’m gay, maybe I’m nonbinary, and you don’t quite know yet, but you’re here trying to learn that, you are so far looking to be out to yourself and you’re the most important person to be out to. You don’t have to come out to anybody else. If it’s not safe, you don’t have to come out. If it’s not safe, you don’t have to join any sort of group. Nobody needs to know this about you if you’re not safe. I think that in itself, is a huge legacy of Pride. Because if you get from the 1970s you have Harvey Milk also in San [00:50:00] Francisco and Harvey Milk says, we need everybody. We need to show people that this is normal. We need to be out. Please don’t be afraid to be out. And it was scary to be out.
Now 50 years on, we can say, if you’re not safe and there are plenty of places that you’re not safe, you do not have to be out in those spaces. And you do not have to think that you need to be out in those spaces. And that is I’m grateful. I am immensely grateful to Harvey Milk, to Marsha P Johnson, two of these other elders who, who have made these things possible for us in such a short amount of time.
Colette: I love that. It’s so important. I emphasize that to people a lot when I work with them and they come into my office. And you don’t owe anybody your story, you do not have to come out of the closet. I heard this idea and I posted on my Instagram a little bit ago that says no one belongs in the closet, [00:51:00] but if you’re safer inside, I’ll guard the door. And so just that idea, you don’t have to come out, but you can. And there are people who will stand with you if you choose to come out. So thank you for that, Kate.
One other thought I had too, as we were preparing for this episode, talking about the Mormonism aspect of pride and why maybe there’s this pushback against pride. I also want to point out that in October 2010, general conference, President Uchtdorf gave a talk called Pride in the Priesthood in the men’s session. And he even acknowledges this thing. He referenced President Benson’s talk and he comes out and says, I also remember one interesting side effect of President Benson’s influential talk. For a while, it became almost taboo among church members to say they were proud of their children or their country, or that they took pride in their work. The very word pride seemed to become an outcast in our vocabulary. [00:52:00] And he continues on saying, I believe there’s a difference between being proud of certain things I’m being prideful. And I thought that was an interesting distinction. I don’t know if that’s quite where I’m at exactly, but I do want to point out if you’re still struggling because of this Mormon zeitgeist against pride, you now have some language from President Uchtdorf about we can be proud of things. There is a difference between being proud and being prideful. And I, again, could quibble with that a little bit more, especially after this discussion, but don’t be afraid of being proud of yourself. I, again, love that definition that Kate shared about just letting go of the shame, not having shame, being proud, that way that’s powerful.
And I think this is my gospel according to Colette, I think God wants us to be proud of ourselves that way. God made us the way we were. And I personally believe my queerness is a part of [00:53:00] that. My queerness is part of how God made me and it’s there for a reason. Why wouldn’t I be proud of that?
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And also I’m proud of you.
Colette: I’m proud of you. I love that we’re doing this. Look at us go.
I guess just as we wrap up, we’d encourage you all to just think more about Pride. Maybe share this episode with someone.
Kate: I wanted to say something to allies. Can we talk to allies for one second?
Colette: Please. Let’s.
Kate: But I don’t know exactly what to say. Do you have anything to say to allies?
Colette: Allies. First off. Thank you for listening. It’s been interesting. When Kate and I started this podcast, we didn’t think allies would really care much about our podcast. And so it’s been really nice to see allies leaning in and listening and gaining knowledge and information and listening to stories and building relationships. And so first off, thank you for being here and not being afraid to lean into this space where maybe [00:54:00] we push the envelope a little bit from maybe some other queer podcasts you might listen to.
Also, allies, please understand whereever your queer people in your life are at, this is them. Don’t make it about you. Don’t make their pride about you as far as guilting them about, oh, but we’re not supposed to have pride or you’re shoving your sexuality in my face. Like that. It’s not about you. And I like let go of your ego a little That sounds harsh, but.
Kate: That’s what I want to talk about is this idea that pride is so often talked about as why do you need to flaunt it? Pride is about flaunting your sin or your sexuality. And I hope that what you get from this episode is [00:55:00] that’s not what pride is. Pride is being okay with being who you are and being human and experiencing your humanness just as everybody else gets to experience their humanness when it’s been denied us for a very long time. And we had to work for that. We have these elders that we rely on who made it possible for us just to exist and not be thrown in jail and not be killed. All of these things. Just to exist. And I think it’s important for allies to know that’s what pride is. Pride is not the flaunting. It is being able to experience your humanness exactly as you experienced your humanness, without fear of somebody’s retaliating against you for that. And I hope that allies can pick up on that and share that message with whomever they come across.[00:56:00]
Colette: I love that. Thank you for saying that I was on mute, but I was like snapping along and be like, yes, yes, yes.. So thank you, Kate. Love all of that.
So with that Happy Pride, everyone.
Kate: Happy Pride!
Colette: One other idea, go follow some queer creators, maybe including us.
Share pride and remember, yes, June is Pride Month, but you don’t have to limit your pride to June. And again, that’s why I surround myself with so much rainbow and so much queer stuff, because that is part of my pride. And I don’t want to have to wait for June every year so I can have pride. I want it to be a year round thing. So hope you can do that too, if that feels like something you’re called to do.
Kate: Absolutely.
And with that, thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. If you’re liking these episodes, we’d love it if you’d rate and review Called to Queer on the podcast player of your choice so that other people are more likely to find [00:57:00] us. We’d also love it if you’d share a podcast with a friend who could benefit from hearing these stories. If you want to contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.