Kate: Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, genderqueer and intersex experiences. I’m Kate at my pronouns are she/they.
Colette: And I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her
Kate: Today, we’re talking with Chloe Agyin, and we’re so excited about this conversation. But before we jump into that, we want to start off with some queer joy. So Colette, what brought you queer joy this week?
Colette: So I’m a lesbian stereotype in many ways. And one of the ways is that I stay friends with my exes. And so this week, I met up with an ex and her girlfriend. And we wandered the gayborhood of Salt Lake. I had never heard it referred to that before, but like the ninth and ninth area, there’s like a ton of rainbow flags, there’s like a rainbow mural. And so we wandered around there. We went into the shop called Cahoots [00:01:00] and I got a refrigerator magnet that says the rainbow sheep of the family and a rainbow tank top that I’m excited for Pride. And it was just super fun.
Kate: That’s awesome. I love that. The rainbow sheep of the family, I want one of those
Colette: If shipping weren’t crazy, I’d totally send you one. The next time you’re in the states, you let me know and I’ll bring one over.
Kate: Okay. Great.
Colette: How about you, Kate? What was your queer joy for the week?
Kate: Yeah. Okay. Mine’s weird because this week was hard. We’re recording the same week that the Supreme Court leak happened. And it’s just been a hard week. And my queer joy is unconventional. And I understand that it’s going to be like jarring to hear it. So please know that, I think that it will probably end up in a place that, that people will appreciate.
I, this [00:02:00] morning was on Instagram and I ended up reading something that sparked this old conference talk in my mind, which is “Good, Better, Best” by my least favorite apostle. And I was like, that’s the worst talk ever. I’m going to go read it and be mad about it. And instead I read it, I did read it. And I was like, oh my goodness. It would be so easy to read this talk from a queer perspective and be like, you know what? Maybe the church is good for people. Because that’s what he says. There are things that are good for people that we know are good, but there are better things. And there are best things. And I just kept reading and I was like, this entire talk could be interpreted through queer interpretation. That is really excellent.
So then I did like another strange thing. I looked up one of my old [00:03:00] favorite conference talks. It’s actually not a conference talk. It’s a BYU devotional that I had seen somebody post about, which is Jeffery R. Holland’s “Souls, Symbols and Sacraments.” I started reading that one and there is a lot, I do not recommend that one. Because it’s has some queer phobia in it, like specifically queer phobia. But I was reading it and getting to like, where he’s just like very open about sex. And I was like, oh my gosh, you could interpret all of this through a queer lens and queer perspective too.
So now it’s my goal to read conference talks to a queer and have a queer interpretation of them. So I know that sounds weird, but it was really healing for me this week to be like, there is hard stuff and there’s hard stuff in the church and people keep saying stuff that’s really harmful and hurts actual people. But I’m going to take some of those things and be able to interpret that for my life in a [00:04:00] way that’s going to bring me queer joy and where I can see myself and my queerness reflected back at me. So I understand that’s a little bit weird, but it brought me queer joy.
Colette: I’m here for it. And I’m here for any insights you gain as you do that. I think there’s so much room for queerness in the gospel that people don’t realize. And I think we need queer scholars to be able to help point that out for people. And I know you can definitely share that with others, and I’m excited to hear more about your insights, Kate.
Kate: Thank you. So I do have to also put this out there that the church wants to say that whatever prophets pronounce, whatever they say, is gospel, it is canonized. But they’re very inconsistent with one another and especially inconsistent over time. So that can’t be true. So when we are examining any sort of conference talk, any sort of scripture or [00:05:00] anything, we have to take it through our own lens and our own personal meaning because otherwise it actually doesn’t make sense. There are too many inconsistencies. I do want to put that out there that I’m not advocating for this being truth. I’m advocating for literary interpretation, literary criticism.
Anyway, that was a long one. Sorry, Chloe. You’re up? Do you have some queer joy?
Chloe: Of course. Always. I would say my queer joy this week. My brother and sister-in-law just had their baby on Tuesday, I think. Yeah. And it just so wonderful to be in this place where like my family is so accepting of me and so loving that I don’t have to worry about my brother being weird about his new baby and all of that stuff.
And he even, they named her after me, like she has one of my middle names and like such an honor to like, be able to share this part of myself with this tiny human that like, I’ll be able to be around and help raise and like just be a part of, so like, [00:06:00] so, so, so, so wonderful and happy and like definitely lots queer joy in that.
Colette: Oh, for sure. That’s amazing.
Kate: I think that might be my favorite queer joy we’ve had is somebody naming their child. That’s really cool. That’s really cool.
Chloe: Yeah. Thank you.
Kate: Okay. Let’s hear more about Chloe. Let’s jump right in. Chloe, can you give us your pronouns and your whatever we call it? Right now, I still like queer in 60 seconds, even
Colette: Okay, let’s call it queer in 60 seconds.
Chloe: So yeah, I’m Chloe, my pronouns are they/them. And I guess my queer in 60 seconds would be I actually didn’t realize that I was queer until I was off my mission. First day at BYU, see this girl from across the like grass. Instantly have all these like butterflies in my stomach. And in that moment I’m like, okay, like I [00:07:00] get why love songs are written. Like I get all the romance novels, like I get it. And then going through the process of coming out at BYU and like struggling with that and being a returned missionary. After leaving BYU, I removed my records from the church and like fully embraced my queer identity.
I did school, I got my master’s degree. Worked at Encircle, which is an LGBTQ resource center. There’s one in Salt Lake City and I was the director of that location for about a year and a half. And then now I work at Celebrate Therapy as a therapist. It’s been like two months, but it’s been so wonderful.
Kate: Yay. That’s awesome. So excited to have more therapists who are competent. Sorry. Queer competent, not just competent.
Colette: Can we talk a little bit about your growing up? So are you from Utah? Like what led you to come to BYU? That sort of stuff.
Chloe: . Yeah. That’s a really good question. I’m originally from California. Born and [00:08:00] raised in California. Ironically, it’s called Corona. So that was fun during the whole COVID era. So I grew up there. I joined the Mormon church when I was 17, I believe. Me and my younger brother joined together. But my mom’s family has a history of being in the church for a couple of generations. But my dad wasn’t super into it. So it was like this divide with my family.
17, joined the church. And then I went on a mission. I served in the Houston South Mission Spanish-speaking. And then after that, when I was on my mission, I was debating on like going back to the school I was already at. I was doing my undergrad in New York at a school called St. John’s, which I loved. But by the time I was going to be done with my mission, a lot of my friends would have been like graduated or be really close to graduating. So I’m like, I don’t want to go back to New York and have to re find friends, like all that things.
And everyone on my mission was like, we’re going to be why you just apply. It’s going to be so great and fun and all this [00:09:00] stuff. So I was like, okay, might as well do it. I got into BYU. And then went pretty much straight from my mission. I was home a week or two and then went straight to school. And have been in Utah since. I’ve literally tried to get out of Utah, like four times and the universe keeps bringing me back. Like one time I like actually left Utah and was like, I’m going to go to school, do my graduate degree somewhere else. And just nothing worked out. I couldn’t find a place to live. I was trying to like do studies while like living in my car and I’m like, fuck this. This is so dumb. I guess I’ll have to go back to Utah. So I come back and every year I’m like, I’m getting out of here. And then every year the universe is like, no, and I’m like, okay cool, cool, cool, cool.
Kate: That’s hard to imagine going from California to Texas to Utah. Is that the line? Did you go straight from California to
Chloe: No, I went from California, New York, then Texas, Utah. Yeah.
Kate: Those are very extreme places to live.
Chloe: Yes. [00:10:00] I was in so much shock when I got to Utah, just what the heck is..? Like, where’s the diversity? Like I came from like really like very diverse places to like, not very diverse. So it’s been an adjustment for sure.
Kate: Yeah. Even Houston is, even though it’s a conservative area, it’s definitely not as white as Utah. Maybe you could talk about what your mission was like in, in Houston. Did you enjoy it?
Chloe: Yeah. I feel like I have lots of complicated, I guess not complicated, but like lots of mixed feelings about my mission. In one sense it was so cool being able to learn Spanish and be really connected to people who spoke Spanish while I was in Houston.
And for me, my goal on my mission was not to convert people. Even then, that never felt good. Like I just wanted to like build connection with people. If by building connection with me, they happen to join the church or become more active, great. But I didn’t care. So there’s this like part of me that like loves that I was able [00:11:00] to do that.
Then part of me hated that because being a missionary is like a form of colonization and now being so far removed from that. And like being out of it and like really understanding my own identities and like the history of colonization and religion. Don’t feel really great about what I did. But I feel like I can hold space for both of those things. And like, love it, love the connections. And also like, not agree with that. And obviously not support it anymore.
Kate: Yeah. Excellent. Actually, can we dive into that just a little bit more? Can you talk about specifically Houston, what that felt like, what it feels like reflecting on that and thinking about this in terms of colonization?
Chloe: Yeah, I would say it was like looking back, just really weird. I felt like as a missionary, like we go out and we’re taught that what we’re doing is like bringing people closer to God, and they need to leave basically, like it leave everything that they’ve known culturally really to join the church in a lot of ways.
And it’s just like really weird, cause that like [00:12:00] never felt good for me. Like being a person of color. Like I do have lots of culture and history that like the church would say isn’t a thing that you should be doing. Because you’re now in the church. And they come from this like Western idea of what it means to be good and like the things that you do are good.
So it was really weird, like being a person of color representing this like organization that is predominantly white, but like not really seeing that while I was there. And like coming into people’s homes and being like you can’t do this, even though it’s part of your culture, because you need to come closer to God. Or you can’t do this, even though that’s like part of your culture, because like you need to be baptized or whatever. Like just very icky stuff that like the church, lots of religions, like in the U S are like so heavily reliant on white Western ideology, culture, beliefs and systems. Yeah,
Kate: I think this is like a good point to get a little bit more background about you and your family. [00:13:00] You have, your mom is a native Hawaiian and your dad is from Ghana. Is that correct?
Chloe: Mmmhm. Yeah.
Kate: Both from colonized spaces. That factors in as well. Can you talk a little bit about growing up and being from mixed heritage, being in a mixed heritage family and those sorts of things.
Chloe: Yeah. It is very interesting. And I feel like the more I reflect on it like the more angry I am, I guess. Of this, just how I grew up in this really, this like idea of assimilation. My dad, like you said, from Ghana, him and his family like speak Twi, which is the language they speak there, obviously. And I remember like growing up my brothers and I would constantly just reject all of it. We were just like, we don’t want to speak your language. We don’t want to eat your food. We don’t want to wear your clothes. We just don’t want to do it because we want it to be quote unquote American.
And like the same thing with my mom’s family too. Part of it is like having darker skin. It’s like hard to be accepted sometimes within Hawaiian culture, because I don’t [00:14:00] look Hawaiian. So off the bat, people in that culture, aren’t readily accepting and like trying to navigate that space of being like, I am Hawaiian, but also like I want to be American.
And also I am part Ghanian. Making that all work is just tricky and complicated and still haven’t figured out yet. And I’m like 27. So that’s hard.
Kate: I’m looking up a film. In Mormondom, there’s a documentary going around called Chewing Gum. And people are talking a lot about this. So I went to vote for Chewing Gum, but I wanted to see the other films that I was voting against, but not really. Cause I really want to see this movie.
There are only like four and one of them is about native Hawaiian groups, specific group fighting the telescope that was being put up in Hawaii. So that’s one that was really interesting.
And another one that was really interesting is this documentary follows a couple MIT [00:15:00] students who are talking exactly about what you’re talking about. They’re students from Ghana who go to MIT and have these dreams of trying to better their communities back home. And part of the synopsis is how much of America do I have to adopt and how much am I okay adopting in order to do this?
And I think it’s so hard to pull out education from American assimilation. Like those things are so intertwined. So I was trying to find this documentary, but I can not. We will find it for the show notes.
But we’re releasing this episode during Asian American Pacific Islander heritage month, which is the month of May. And I think that your story is one that’s that is really interesting and connecting these communities, but maybe can you talk a little bit more about how you connect with your mom’s side of the family and what that Mormonness, how Mormons impacts that side of the family?
Chloe: That’s a [00:16:00] really great question. A very like complex question, I guess. Like I would say for me I’ve really had to like, take a look at myself and ask myself really hard questions of like one, what does it mean to like, even be Hawaiian? Am I just Hawaiian because I am Hawaiian, right? Do I need to like be, so I guess engrossed in like the culture and the language and the community, or can I just be Hawaiian because I am?
So with my family, like in Hawaiian culture, like communalism is really big. Of we look out for each other. Like we just are together all the time. Like my family are like the closest people and I like talk to my grandma and a lot of my aunts, very frequently. So there’s that part, but then there’s also this LDS part that like, where Hawaiian culture, like tattoos are like such a big part of that. And like genealogy, like that’s a way that you like show your geneology and show [00:17:00] lots of different characteristics of who you are. And has been like that for literally centuries. But in like the LDS culture, you can’t have tattoos. No matter what.
So like, all of my family, a lot of them are like I want to get a tattoo. Like I want to get like a traditional tattoo, like in Hawaii. But I’m also Mormon. Like how do I navigate that? For my family members who are really active. And then also just being queer, like before America had come in and taken over. Even before that, right? Like when the first Western like communities had come to Hawaii, like being queer, wasn’t a problem. Like queer people were very readily accepted in society. And they were seen as like healers and like people who were revered in society where like now, because of colonization because of Mormonism, like being queer is so frowned upon and looked on so negatively.
Colette: And I want to dive if you’re okay, dive more into the colonization with Hawaii. We talked in our episode with The Faithful Feminists about how a lot of people [00:18:00] think the Family Proclamation came from inspired leaders, not realizing this was happening at the same time as the fight for same-sex marriage in Hawaii. And Hawaii has this history, like you’re saying of queer people being part of the community and seen as healers. So I’m just wondering if you can talk more about how, colonization and things impacted that view.
Chloe: Yeah, I honestly don’t have a lot to say on it. I don’t. Sorry, Colette.
Colette: No, that’s totally fine. And this is where I love Kate being a historian because they can talk to a lot of this sort of stuff, because I think so often the way white patriarchal American culture is now is saying, oh, queer people don’t exist. It’s never been a thing. You’re making this up. When we look to Hawaii as an example, or like a lot of other now colonized places, queer people, were part of [00:19:00] society, and it was normal. And it’s hard to see how colonization has just hurt so many people that way.
Chloe: Yeah. Actually to speak to that. So recently I was like reading this article about it was like breastfeeding colonization and like BIPOC communities. And the author of the article was saying that like similar to that of like in breastfeeding. And like the way that people take care of their kids. But like for centuries, again, she’s Puerto Rican. Like for centuries, like breastfeeding was so normal, like co-sleeping with your kid was so normal. Like all of these things that like people do now had been so normal, but then colonization happened, all of that got taken away. And then people are like rediscovering these things and like branding it as something else of oh, breastfeeding is so wonderful. We can’t believe that people like don’t breastfeed their kids when for lots of BIPOC people, it was like, it was so frowned upon and stigmatized because of Western ideas of breastfeeding [00:20:00] and this need to like provide for your family. So all of that got taken away from them. And then now it’s like being rediscovered as like this white woman thing. Because white women say it’s okay. Like now it’s okay to breastfeed your kid in public or in general.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a ton of stuff like that, especially stuff like that we think of as medical. That’s why, when I say like the MIT story it’s hard to unpack what’s American and colonization from what is science, because those things are really intertwined. So I think that this is a good example.
One thing I didn’t know about before this conversation with you right now, it’s a little bit embarrassing. So please forgive my ignorance. Is I didn’t know that tattoos in Hawaiian culture were part of family history.
Chloe: Mmmhm.
Kate: And that to me is really fascinating that the colonization plus Mormonism thinks we’re going to celebrate family [00:21:00] history, but not the way that you do family history, right? And there’s this big movement within Mormonism to find all of your records. And this is really problematic within BIPOC communities because records are kept differently. So I knew all of this and yet I did not know that the way the tattoos were a way of doing this. I would love to hear more about those tattoos. If you can talk about that, if that’s okay.
Chloe: Yeah. I only know a little bit, and I’m not saying that all Hawaiian tattoos are genealogy, but there’s this guy in Hawaii who is trained in the old ways, of like doing tattoos on Hawaii. And like I had a couple of cousins go to him and his big thing is you have to know your genealogy before you can like, come to me to get your tattoo, because what your genealogy is based on is like, what’s going to influence the type of tattoo that I give you and like where it’s placed on your body.
So just in Hawaiian culture, like genealogy is so important. And in my family, we have a genealogist who like, knows all of that stuff, like knows [00:22:00] stories from like generations ago. And it’s like wonderful that we get to preserve a history in that way, but a lot of it is from like mouth to mouth.
Kate: Yeah. So it’s mostly oral tradition, right?
Chloe: Yes. 100%, mostly oral. Yeah. So yeah, it is so important, like you’re saying, but I never put that together too, that the church values that, but won’t let you express it in the way that like your culture expresses that.
Kate: I’m grateful to know this. Thank you for introducing this knowledge to me. Cause now that’s really interesting and important, but also like really heavy and hard to learn.
Can we skip ahead to talk about BYU and falling in love and figuring out that you’re queer?
Chloe: Sure I would love to,
Kate: Yes. Okay, great. Those are our favorite stories.
You’d mentioned in your intro that you saw somebody from across the way and you just felt the butterflies. And I understand that feeling. I think there are [00:23:00] many people who understand that feeling. In fact, do you all watch, have you seen Heartstopper?
Colette: I keep hearing about it. It’s now on my list to watch, I have homework from a client that was like, you need to watch this so we can talk about it.
Chloe: yes.
Kate: Heartstopper’s on Netflix. It’s just like a quirky teen movie, but in Romanian it’s translated as butterflies in my stomach. And I was like, yep. That’s exactly what it’s like. And so you watched a movie it’s like butterflies in my stomach. So anyway, that’s what I meant. I want to, if we could start with that talking about like recognizing, this is a different feeling.
Chloe: Like I said, in my intro, so it was like BYU orientation and there’s this girl who’s in my group. And she’s like on the other side of the field or whatever, like the circle we’re in. And just like looking at her, seeing her like interact with other people yeah, I just get like butterflies in my stomach and I’m just like, what the heck is this? I was so confused, but I [00:24:00] knew that like I needed to be around her. Like I needed to know this person. Like I need this person in my life.
And fortunately for us, we were on, I don’t know. Fortunately, unfortunately I was looking for a place to live. She had an opening in her like apartment. So we ended up being roommates. And the entire time, like being returned missionary, part of me was like, okay like, what is this? Like, why am I feeling. all these things? She’s a girl, obviously I can’t do that because I’m LDS and I’m a returned missionary. But then the other part of me is like, no, like this is exciting. This is so fun. Like again, like I said, like now I get why like romance movies are made and all of that stuff. And then. So like slowly, we had both realized we had feelings for each other. I don’t even know if we both realized we had feelings more of we both realized we we liked being around each other. Like we spent like all of our free time together. And then it turned into like something a little bit more physical of we always wanted to cuddle, like hold [00:25:00] hands, but like in a platonic way, like just very platonic.
Kate: Of course. Yeah.
Chloe: So we hadn’t done anything, but this girl was like, no, like we need to go talk to our Bishop. What we’re doing is bad. We can’t be doing these things, even though we we hadn’t kissed. We hadn’t done anything except for hold hands and enjoy cuddling and stuff. So the process was like, we would go talk to our Bishop, still keep doing what we’re doing. Go talk to our Bishop. And for him, he would say like the dumbest shit.
Like, oh, it’s because like you’re not dating men that you’re like having these feelings for each other. If you dated men, you would experience those feelings for them. No that’s a lie. Like I’ve dated many men in my past. Or like, because you’re not serving in the temple. You’re like not getting closer to God. And you need to do that in order to like, not have these feelings, which like, then I served in the temple still having these feelings still wanting to like, hold her hand and cuddle her and kiss her.
Kate: Wait, you went to the temple because he [00:26:00] said that,
Chloe: Yeah. I served as a sealings coordinator person. Watch straight people get married all the time. And that was weird. Yeah. It’s like I had done that. I like got a calling in the Relief Society Presidency. I accepted it because I was like, okay, this is like, what’s gonna like fix me.
But then throughout this whole entire process, I’m still having feelings for her. Nothing that I’m doing, is it’s not going away. At all. And there was a point where I was just like, okay, I’m doing all the things that I’m supposed to be doing. I’m like going to family home evening, I’m going into the temple. I’m at BYU. I served a mission, like doing all of these things and I’m still experiencing these feelings. My feelings can’t be wrong. I didn’t ask for these feelings. Like, I didn’t make up these feelings. Like they had just they were there.
So like, if I was doing everything right and still experiencing these feelings, for me, it was like, okay, something has to change. And the thing for me was like, nothing about this felt evil or [00:27:00] bad or terrible. It felt so pure to like, just love someone so completely.
So one day I was just like, okay, like what I’m experiencing I know it’s pure. Like I know what’s good. I’m not causing harm to anyone. And because the church doesn’t agree with that, it must mean for me that, this isn’t for me, like the church wasn’t for me. So I decided that I would finish up at BYU, but once I graduated, I would remove my records because it no longer felt like a place that I belonged and didn’t feel like a place that like I was valued or felt safe in.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. So how much longer after you made that decision, did you have to stick around at BYU?
Chloe: I had made that decision in like early spring 2017, and then graduated that December. But by the time I had graduated, I was like, F this I’m going to date women openly. Me and this girl had already kissed by that time. And it was so magical and wonderful. Yeah,
Kate: Love that.
Chloe: So great. But yeah, I was just like, I’m just going to do it and be open [00:28:00] to the people that .I know who will be safe. And then hope that no one will report me by the time I graduate, which I was fortunate enough not to have been reported.
Colette: And that is such a real fear that I know a lot of our listeners will be able to relate to, or have heard stories of. That I think a lot of people who aren’t queer don’t realize how much self-monitoring, how much secrecy you have to do, and just hope I’m doing what feels right for me. But if I get found out, I could get kicked out. And a lot of my credits won’t transfer. I’m going to have to pay way more at another college or university, because BYU is pretty cheap, and it’s really hard to be in that sort of situation, to just be living in fear.
Chloe: Yeah, 100%. And I hear a lot of people say like, well, if you’re queer, like why do you even go to BYU? Like one, I didn’t know. I was queer when I started BYU. It took me a whole, like two years to figure that out. And then also just because you’re queer doesn’t [00:29:00] mean for a lot of people that you want to leave the church too.
A lot of people want to live in that space of having both. And it’s like unfair that yeah, like you don’t get to explore that or you can’t understand yourself completely. It is so hard because you’re told if you act on anything, you could be kicked out. And that is traumatic to do that, to kick people out of school, not knowing if they can afford another university, not knowing if their credits will transfer. Like it’s not as easy as just oh, I’m queer. Now, let me just leave. No, there’s so much more to that than just leaving.
Colette: And the double standard, too, of. It’s not just, okay if you have sex with someone of the same gender, then you’re kicked out, the same as if you were in a heterosexual relationship. People can be reported for very normal chaste dating, and that is people are like, oh no it’s just following the law of chastity. And it’s no, it’s a completely different standard for [00:30:00] queer people. And that’s so hard that this is part of the self exploration that you then don’t get to do.
Chloe: For sure. Yeah, Like I remember even if like we wanted to hold hands, like we’d have to be like, oh, who’s around? Do you know anyone that’s around here? Is anyone wearing like a BYU shirt? Like really self-monitoring everything like going out in public, like even being in our own spaces with our roommates, like they say, they’re cool right now, but tomorrow they might hate me and report me to the honor code. Like you don’t know. Like the monitoring of other people is like so toxic and like terrible.
Kate: Yeah, I call it surveillance. So once you’re operating in Eastern Europe, you get really well acquainted with something called the surveillance state and BYU is doing that. It’s constantly doing that.
Chloe: Yeah.
Colette: And like you said, I hate whenever someone says well, they can just go somewhere else. And I’m like, there are so many reasons why they might not, and you mentioned some of them, but that was just one of my biggest pet peeves. For a lot of people, when you never [00:31:00] are allowed to be a sexual being growing up, raised female in the LDS church, you never examined your sexuality. And so you may not realize till after you’re there. Sometimes parents will only support BYU. Sometimes that’s the cheapest option. Sometimes they have really good academic programs in some areas, and you’re not going to get as good of an education. And that’s just one of my biggest pet peeves. So thank you for speaking to that.
Chloe: Of course.
Kate: We had Dr. Diamond on here, like last month or something. And she said something really interesting that once people come out, they have a tendency to like on their past selves to see like where their queerness was coming up and both Colette and I were like, yep. I think every queer person’s like, yep, we totally do that.
But once you recognize it, the way you tell the story, it seems like, oh, there was this person. And I felt it. Did you go through that process of examining your past and what did that look like?[00:32:00]
Chloe: Oh, for sure. Like you said, like it is, it’s a thing that we all do who come out later in life, but yeah. I can think back to like high school and like having a friend and like wanting to be around them all the time, like same thing, like just thinking that like, they were like the coolest person. And like I would’ve liked, died for them as a little teenager. But for me that was just like, oh, because like she’s such a good friend, right? Like I didn’t have the language or even like the space to even consider to explore that.
And then my biggest moment was like, on my mission, I had this companion that like, I also was just like, so infatuated with. She’s so wonderful. And every night we would sing hymns out of the tiny little handbook and our knees would touch. And I would just get the butterfly feeling like electricity all over my body. And for me, that’s just like, oh, it’s because she’s spiritual. Like, it’s just because we’re good companions. And we really liked each other as [00:33:00] companions. And then we’d been together for six weeks. And when I got transferred, like we were both just like crying and it was like the worst thing in the whole entire world. And like wrote each other, like throughout the rest of my mission. And her mission. But just like little stuff like that, where now I can be like, oh, that was definitely a crush. But back then, it’s just because of all of these like ideologies that we have, like there’s no space to like, explore that and sit in that space.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s interesting. You use the word coolest. This is a word I hear all of the time when queer, specifically queer AFAB people who’ve come out a little bit later, talk about the people before they’re like, I thought she was so cool. So when we say like, look for the language, that’s another one. Like I think it’s a telltale sign is, oh, they’re just so cool that the electricity, I totally understand the electricity. That’s also language that I’ve used before. I don’t know what it is. It’s like electricity going through me. So
Chloe: Yeah.
Kate: Did you [00:34:00] keep track of this companion?
Chloe: Okay. So yeah, like we had, like I said I left my mission first. We had written for the rest of her mission. She like comes home, still friends. She gets married to a man, unfortunately. We lost contact. And then recently just a month ago we like re got in contact. I’ve been like hanging out and stuff. So if she hears this sorry that I haven’t told you I had a crush on you when we were on our missions, you probably know who you are.
Kate: Okay. That’s awesome.
Chloe: I’ve thought about telling her. And I’m like, what is the positive and negatives of that? Because it is such an important part of my story. And obviously on podcasts and stuff like I talk about it. So I don’t want her to like, listen to a podcast or something one day and be all shook and weird about it because now we’re just friends. But back then it was like something different.
Colette: I’m glad you bring that up. Cause I feel like that’s one thing that’s been interesting as we’ve been interviewing people. And as I’ve told my story, so much of my story is wrapped up in [00:35:00] that first ex, my roommate. And I’m very careful. I’m like, I want to share my side of things, but this is also her story too. And so trying to be careful of what’s mine to own, what’s helpful for others, but I want to respect her privacy and her life. And I’d love to get her on here one of these days. I think that could be a fascinating conversation.
Kate: Yeah. Also the flip side. I’ve told people, look, this is, you know, me, you knew I was queer. You’ve heard me come out. Was it not obvious that I had a crush on you and it ruined a friendship. So like these things, these, you have to be careful about that. And you have to be even people that you think, or who are expressing themselves to be not queer phobic are taken aback by these things.
So I don’t know. It’s really difficult. It sounds like you have a good enough friendship that I can say this story and it not be threatening. [00:36:00] It sounds like you both have the space to do that.
Chloe: Hopefully, we’ll see.
Colette: Well, and that’s one reason we really do appreciate our guests so much, because it is vulnerable to talk about these stories and potentially some of the stories of others. So thank you. I know what you say is going to be relatable.
I am curious. So you talked quite a bit about these interactions, throwing yourself more in the church, trying to make this work. What was it like when you came out? We didn’t even really talk much about you being technically a convert to the church and then deciding, oh, I’m, this is no longer a fit. How was that for you, for your family to both come out and be like stepping away from the church?
Chloe: Yeah, that’s a really great question. I feel like for me, by the time I had come to like my final decision of I need to leave I was really fortunate to like, be in this place of like, I had so much respect and like understanding probably this is like the social work in me. Of understanding that like [00:37:00] when I was in the church and what it had done for me, was good, I guess. It provided me what I needed when I was in it. Like I joined when I was 17, like I said, and I was really just like looking for community and that just happened to be the community that my whole family was a part of. So for me, it just like made sense. And I did meet like such good people. And 17 to 21 year old Chloe really needed that. And then when I had come out, like 23 Chloe didn’t need that anymore. And for me, I could thank that part of me and like, thank it for what I had done for like younger me and then move forward. Like not to say that I’m like not angry and shit. Like I still am. I’m still angry. And I still have lots of hurt feelings and I can recognize that like it is in the past, it is okay. Like it happened.
And then with my family. So complicated, like my mom and my brothers are like the only people who know that I like removed my records. Because to my grandma, leaving the church is like so much worse than being queer, unfortunately.
So that’s just not [00:38:00] something like, like I said before, like I love my grandma and I really value our relationship. And for me, that’s not something that like, I feel like will be productive for both of us and I’m okay with that. But when I’m not at my grandma’s house, I’m like, no, I don’t want anything to do with the church.
And then for my, one of my, my brother who joined the church with me, it really strained our relationship for a really long time. Like I came out to him in 2017 and then just recently, like December of last year, we like finally sat down and had a conversation about me, like coming out, leaving the church and like all of these things. And a lot of it was just like miscommunication and hurt feelings on both sides and like just not communicating properly. And since then it’s been like so great. That he can be LDS and like, be happy in that. And like, I support him and like his colleagues and whatever, like his baby blessings and stuff.
And he can do the same for me of he wants to hear about like me working at Celebrate or like me being the director of Encircle or me volunteering for various LGBTQ organizations. Like he doesn’t shy away from that either. So I think it’s like both of us [00:39:00] just showing up for each other in like different ways.
Kate: Yeah. concept that your grandma would be more upset about getting your records removed rather than being queer is an interesting one to me. The sense of community and family in native Hawaiian culture, from what my understanding from an outsider’s perspective, is that this is what can be called a kinship network. And the way that families are oriented and the way the community’s oriented is different than a colonial perspective. That is your, you have a mom and a dad, and then you have children and those people. And then you have like this whole family tree that you organized. It’s different to have this community that is your family, that all worked together to raise kids.
So to me it makes sense that your family, that this feels almost like a stepping [00:40:00] outside of the family or community rather than queerness, which can be more easily incorporated. Is that fair to say?
Chloe: Yeah, I would for sure say well, it’s hard to say. Yeah.
Kate: I’m sorry, I got us sidetracked off on that topic, but I found that interesting that, about your grandma, but we were talking about, you were talking, asking questions about breaking away and family breaking away from the church.
Colette: Yeah. I think it’s really hard and we have this conversation a lot and I’m sure you have the conversation a lot with clients as far as navigating that the Mormon church is. I really like how Sami Simpson said it in her episode, they’re pro family structure, not pro family, but I was like Oof. That’s a quote to re member. And so it’s really hard when the Mormon church says we’re so pro family, but then someone comes out as queer and it’s not pro family necessarily anymore.
[00:41:00] It sounds like overall you’ve been able to work through things and family’s been okay, but I don’t know if you can speak to maybe some of that conflict. How you did navigate that because it is a really hard space.
Chloe: Yeah, I would say for me, the biggest thing was like first understanding that like, it took me such a long time to understand my own sexuality. And that it didn’t happen overnight for me. So also like honoring that for my family as well. Like maybe they had inklings. But recognizing that like, yes, because of the church, like that’s not even a possibility that people can explore or like, think about even if you think your child is queer, like that is probably like one of the worst things that could happen. So they don’t allow themselves to go there. And like, understanding that has really helped me to like, separate myself from like the learning process of my family, of my grandma. At the end of the day, I know she loves me. I know my mom loves me and I know that it is also a process for them.
And if my grandma never gets there, like it is okay for me, [00:42:00] because I love myself so much. Like I love the community that I’ve been able to build in Utah so much. I am so happy with who I am, where I’m at, what I’m doing. And like I’m not hurting anyone. And I don’t believe in the celestial kingdom. And I don’t believe in the afterlife the way that LDS people do. I don’t think I’m tearing my family apart. That’s the belief that my grandma wants to hold to. That I’m the reason our, family’s not going to be in the celestial kingdom together. Like, Y’all do other things that probably won’t get you there either. So it’s all of us. For me, I think that if there is loving God out there, he’s gonna let us be together because he wants us to be together. And wants us to have love and be ourselves.
Kate: That’s beautiful.
Colette: I love that. That reminds me. I love following Blaire Ostler. They always have such good insights. And I remember during the border crisis a few years ago, they said something about, do I believe in a God that would separate parents from children at the border? And I was like, I don’t want to believe in that [00:43:00] God. And so I love the more expansive view that you have that if there is a God, I don’t believe God wants to separate. If God really believes we’re communal people, God wants us to be together. So I don’t want to believe in a God that is that punitive to separate saying, sorry, you’re gay. And you chose wrong. Like I, that just doesn’t resonate with me.
Chloe: I agree.
Kate: I would like to venture into your beliefs because you talk about the universe, but I don’t know if that’s like appropriate or fair to put you on the spot about your beliefs, about the universe.
Chloe: Oh, I can. I’m okay to talk about it. I’m very open.
Kate: Can you talk about then your what do we call that? Faith transition. What that looked like and what you keep and what you decide to put away
Chloe: Yeah. So yeah, my faith transition, I would say like after leaving and like removing my records and everything, which was quite uneventful, like I thought it was going to be like a huge I don’t know, something. I thought I was gonna like, [00:44:00] feel really good, but I’m just like, oh, they just sent me in an email and they like delete all the shit when like I put so much time and energy into like, doing all the things. It was so bizarre.
Anyway, so after that I was just like so angry for probably like two years, just like pure anger of like, if God is so loving, like they teach in the LDS faith, how can he be so unloving towards the creatures that he had created? I really do believe that I was created as a queer person.
So just lots of anger for a while. And then after that, like I said, still a little bit angry, but more transitioning to the space of like, I believe that there is something larger out there. You had Dr. Lacey Bagley on here a while ago. And we talked really about she calls it like the network that like connects us. I really love that word because that’s how I feel like there is something out there that connects everybody. And sometimes it’s so tangible and also like connects like all living things. Like sometimes I’m like sitting in coffee shops and just feel so connected [00:45:00] to other people.
So I definitely believe in that. And then also just like I would call it my intuition of like, I do think that there are like things that I need to be doing in my life and being really open to that. Like I said, like me trying to leave Utah, but like the universe saying no every single time and that like, me being willing to listen to that and like, even like taking my job at like Celebrate Therapy, like it just all fell into place and like me being open to like, let that happen. And I never wanted to do therapy. Like I wasn’t even looking for a job when I got this job. It just felt like, because I was listening and like willing to act and do that like, I was able to hear something outside of myself telling me that this is my next step in life. So really leaning into that.
So yeah, I would say. I would call things a little bit differently than LDS people would call that. Like my girlfriend’s LDS, and I guess she would call that like the Holy Ghost, right? The Holy Ghost is like talking to me. Where like, for me, that’s like my intuition and like the universe talking to me.[00:46:00]
Kate: Cool. I really liked that. Thank you for sharing that with us.
There have been a couple of times, now that you’ve brought up being really angry. And I think that anger is healthy. And I think the anger is a part of us loving ourselves and loving the parts of ourselves that somebody told us to cut off, to separate ourselves from. And the anger is about reincorporating those parts of you. So I think it’s really great to be able to hear you talk about moving through that whole process because that entire process, including the anger is all crucial to getting to a more peaceful spot.
If it’s okay, can we talk about anger a little bit more and this being within Mormon culture and specifically white culture, there is a problem with anger and [00:47:00] shoving a trope onto specifically black women about being angry. Can you talk about that a little bit more and how that impacts you?
Chloe: Yes. Yeah. I feel like it’s so tricky because I do understand that anger can be really productive and it’s also like something that you need that we need to feel light, right. like things, or make us angry. And I feel angry all the time. And a lot of the times it’s like, how can I express that specifically when I’m in spaces with white people?
Because I don’t want to be seen as like this, just like an angry black woman. And that’s been like really hard for me to like, navigate and like, how can I like express my anger frustration in ways that doesn’t activate like white fragility in people. And I feel like for me, a lot of that is just like, I hold lots of things in. I come home. I get really angry and like heated and like scream. And my girlfriend sits and listens [00:48:00] to all of my feelings and then I’m like, okay, like how can I take this? And like, do something about it. So then I could go to work and have a conversation with my boss, not in this place of anger.
So I think like navigating that space of are there places for me that I can be angry in a safe environment? Then how can I like take these really underlying feelings and emotions being activated in myself, like use that in a way that is productive.
Kate: And you identify as genderqueer, correct?
Chloe: I do. Yeah, I do.
Kate: I’m hoping you can help me figure this out as another genderqueer person. Because anger within a colonized white community is seen as very masculine, and then it seems troubling at very least to then put that masculine quote unquote quality onto specifically black women.
How do you see anger in terms of these, this dichotomy of masculine and feminine as a [00:49:00] queer person? I have my thoughts that I’d like to share, but I’d like to hear what you think about that.
Chloe: Yeah, for sure. I feel like that’s a really interesting question. And for me, because of this like stereotype of like angry black woman, I feel like for me, anger is really feminine, like in the way that, like I express it as a black person. Which is interpreted very differently, which I’ve never thought about until right this second. Thanks Kate.
But when I am expressing my anger and frustrations, it really is coming from, more of this like feminine place for me than it is from like a more masculine place, if that makes sense.
Kate: That’s super interesting because for me it feels the opposite. When I’m angry, that’s my more masculine part of my gender queerness coming. And so I like cultivate that part of me because I like to cultivate what I think of as masculine. So that’s really interesting to hear you say that. Thank you for going down that rabbit hole
Chloe: of course. Yeah.
Colette: Could you [00:50:00] speak more to coming to terms with being genderqueer? Cause we’ve talked about you realizing, oh, I’m attracted to women. I’m gay. At what point did you start looking at your gender?
Chloe: Yeah, me looking at my gender had, has been pretty recent within the past three years. And for me it is so complicated with the history of being black, a black woman in society. And like the history of being like Hawaiian culture is like pretty matriarchal and like also not feeling like 100% feminine in a lot of ways.
So for me it has really been like trying to honor this like part in history that I’ve come from as like a woman and also like embracing my masculinity too, just because it comes so naturally to me to like, be a little bit more masculine So it’s been hard because I understand that there are masculine women, right? There are Butch women who like strongly identify as women.
So it’s been so complicated to realize, like, where do I fit in all of that? Of like I don’t really [00:51:00] hate a lot of part things about my body, like my sex characteristics. I don’t have a lot of gripes about it, but like the way that I express myself and present and like the characteristics that I want to embrace are more masculine in a lot of ways.
And really determining like, does that make me like a butch woman? Does that make a gender queer person? Does that make me trans masc? I don’t know. But for me living in this space of gender queer, like I can just be me, whatever the hell that means. Like I answered to nobody, except for myself.
Kate: Absolutely. What is the identity that makes you feel best and feel most like you? I think that’s important. And I think that what you’re talking about in terms of your body and dysmorphia and when we’re talking about gender dysphoria, that we don’t often enough talk about gender euphoria and what you’re talking about to me sounds a lot, like my experience with gender euphoria, it’s oh, these things that I didn’t know that I was okay to be, or I’ve been told that are not [00:52:00] okay, now I can suddenly embrace and I get a lot of gender euphoria from those things. So it sounds like similar for you.
Chloe: Very, yeah.
Colette: I know when we were emailing, you were talking about the fact that you were going to be starting a podcast. Can you talk more about that and how that came to be and what your plans are there?
Chloe: Oh yeah, of course. So my podcast it’ll be through Celebrate Therapy for right now as like my passion project. But for a really long time I guess like the last year or so, my girlfriend is half Puerto Rican, half Mexican, so we’re both BIPOC and us like coming to understand our identities has like really been a process and we want this podcast really to focus on queer BIPOC individuals and helping them know that there’s a space for us. Like we exist, there’s a space for us. And there isn’t one way to be LGBTQ [00:53:00] and BIPOC. That like, yes, there are places like if you value your family, you don’t need to throw your family out. Like you can make that work if that’s what you want. Or like, if you want to be religious and like still be queer, like there’s a place for you there. If you want to be a social activist. Great. If you don’t great, like just really normalizing that, like you can show up however you want to show up. However, you need to show up, however you can show up. And like, all of those are completely valid.
So we’re planning on releasing our first podcast in August, actually, via Celebrate and it’ll be me and my girlfriend will be the hosts of it. And kind of see where that takes us.
Kate: Very exciting. We’re so excited.
Colette: Do you have the name of what it’s going to be?
Chloe: No. My girlfriend, I have talked about names. She really likes puns. So the name that we really liked so far was Color Me Queer.
Colette: Please do. That is amazing.
Chloe: okay, cool. Cool. Cool.
Colette: that you need our approval, but that makes me so happy.[00:54:00]
Chloe: Thank you.
Kate: cool. So send us a link and we will promote that on Called to Queer once it’s out too.
Chloe: Okay. Perfect. Thanks.
Colette: And speaking of your girlfriend, you don’t obviously have to talk about this part. If you don’t want to, you mentioned she’s LDS and it sounds like somewhat active? Like what’s that dynamic like between the two of you?
Chloe: Yeah. It’s I would say it’s been in the beginning really complicated, but now I feel like we’ve really gotten to our groove a little bit. And for me, like I said I have all this anger, so sometimes we like have conversations and it’s not so productive, but we’ve settled a little bit on this place of like she can do the church thing if she wants I don’t go to church with her all the time, but if she like invites me, we like have an unspoken agreement that like, I can sit on my phone the entire time and she can like pay attention. I can like make offhand comments every once in a while. And she’s okay with it. Or like, if she wants to go then, like I go climbing with my friend. And just really [00:55:00] allowing ourselves to like, have that space.
Because I was talking to one of my coworkers, the other day of just like the reason that religion is so hard and had been so hard for me was because I’ve been like giving religion so much meaning. Like I was giving it so much weight when in reality it’s just like anything else, like I like to rock climb, my girlfriend doesn’t. Like she likes the LDS church. I don’t, so what? I can have my own opinions. She can have her own opinions and like it is okay. Do I agree with all of them? No, but she’s an individual.
Colette: I love that so much. I mean, that is healthy differentiation that I think so often we don’t see modeled in the church and we don’t always see modeled in queer relationships because I think both those tend to be well, the church, I think tends to encourage enmeshed relationships and then stereotypically, lesbian relationships are very codependent and enmeshed. And so I love that you’re able to differentiate. And I think that’s a really important [00:56:00] concept that we need to be aware of. Of what is healthy in our relationship? How can you still be your own person with your own identity within your relationships? So thank you for modeling that
Chloe: Yeah.
Kate: So we talked about your podcast. We talked about your relationship and how you’re also a therapist. Like during the day you do therapy at Celebrate Therapy and you are queer competent, and also you’re somebody that folks BIPOC folks can come to. How is that working at Celebrate Therapy? How are you feeling about that? And how do you incorporate those things into your practice?
Chloe: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I love my job. Love, love it. As I said before, didn’t think I would ever do therapy, but then took this position and it’s been so wonderful, like being around people who are just so excited to be queer, like the space is so queer and colorful and like clients who come in can like really feel [00:57:00] that. We’re just here to celebrate each other and whatever that looks like.
I do have a lot of clients who come in and are like, what’s your background? Like, are you trying to convert me to be straight or whatever? And I’m like, no, like we’re here really to just find out where you want to be in life and like, get you there.
So it’s been really exciting to like, see people say like, I am gay out loud for the first time, or like have their first like sexual encounter with the same sex. It is just like so wonderful to like, just celebrate every step of the way with people. And I think just like being open in general, like it’s just so helpful for people and like recognize my own journey, recognize other people’s journeys. And I like don’t have an agenda when I’m in therapy that like, whatever people want, like I want to help them get there. No matter what that is. So really just like respecting people and their journey and their process.
Colette: Well, and, as our social work code of ethics as ethical therapists, client self determination is key. Just like we say, agency is key in LDS, but we actually believe it. [00:58:00] Because I think that’s one thing that’s really can be hard in the church is, we believe agency, we support, we believe that you can do whatever you want, but then, oh, you made the wrong choice.
And I’m like, no, I’m using my agency. God gave me this. And so I love being a therapist. It’s, you’re using your agency and I support that and I want you to do what you want to do. I’m actually a little concerned sometimes when clients are like, Hey, what should I do? I’m like this, isn’t my life. What do you want to do?
I remember in grad school, it blew my mind. One of the first semesters the teacher said, it’s not your job as a therapist to give advice. And I was like, Wait, then what do I do as a therapist? That’s why I thought I’m supposed to do. And he said, if you give advice and they take it and it’s good, they become reliant on you. If you give advice and it’s bad and it doesn’t turn out well, they can blame you. Either way, they’re not taking responsibility for their own actions in life. And I was like, oh, so I love talking about that client self-determination. [00:59:00] We don’t have an agenda as therapists. It’s what do you want? And how can we help you get there?
And I do have to put in a plug for therapy for Celebrate Therapy. It is the queerest space. I know that Lacey said that like on our podcast, but I went and legit like rainbows everywhere. Pronoun things everywhere. There’s a potted plant in the waiting room that has pronouns on it. There’s a lending library of all these queer books. There’s a clothing exchange. Like it just brought me so much queer joy to be in that space. I even took a sticker, one of Celebrate’s stickers, that says celebrate and the different things to celebrate in different rainbow colors. And I have it in my office and I had a client say, oh, I love that. The other day. And so thank you for just being an awesome therapist.
Chloe: Thank you.
Kate: I would like to jump in on that because Colette, you’re talking about this code of ethics and this don’t give advice, where it’s really interesting after hearing Chloe’s story [01:00:00] about going to the Bishop and how that experience is just incredibly different, that there is that it’s constantly, let me advise you about something that I really actually have zero clue about. It’s, that is what these bishops are doing. They are giving advice on issues that they have no idea about, which I think we can now talk about the problems with within therapy and mental health community of not addressing or acknowledging often enough systemic issues, particularly systemic issues that impact BIPOC people and how those kind of blinders come up and how maybe you are starting to address those, Chloe.
Chloe: I feel like that’s a really big question,
Kate: It is a really big question. Can I ask something similar to that? Maybe a little bit more specific?
Chloe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kate: First of all, are there systemic issues that you see [01:01:00] within the mental health community?
Chloe: Yes, there are lots of systemic issues, yeah. And I think like the biggest one that gets talked about a lot is just like accessibility. And then also just like the way that we do therapy, I feel like I’m so torn all the time of I know that talk therapy is so beneficial and helpful and lots of communities heal in lots of different ways.
Just by being a talk therapist I feel like I’m contributing to this idea of like colonialism because I’m doing talk therapy. So that’s a whole thing.
Colette: I think that is an interesting concept. And I appreciate you bringing that up because here I am a decade out of my master’s program now, and I’m just now realizing, talk therapy doesn’t resonate as much for me as it used to. And it’s hard because I feel like that’s all I was taught in grad school and yeah, I’ve taken additional trainings and now I’m really trying to take even more things that are outside that traditional model, because there are so many ways to heal.
And I think there is so much wisdom that comes from different [01:02:00] communities that weren’t recognized because there wasn’t the science backed evidence that I’m like this actually I’ve seen so much healing from different things that as I look more into, I’m like, This wasn’t invented by a white guy. This was taken from indigenous communities and then repackaged as a therapeutic modality, that is science backed. Like it’s so interesting to be thinking of and working through.
Chloe: Yeah. And to speak to that, I feel like for me, the biggest indicator of that is like the treatment of schizophrenia and learning that in cultures where communalism is prioritized schizophrenia,, doesn’t present itself as strong as it does in individualistic societies, like the U.S.
Kate: I am not schizophrenic, but I do have bipolar disorder, and I feel that. I understand this concept of when I was growing up and trying to figure out what this meant for me, that [01:03:00] it was so stigmatized where I’m reading in other communities, the same presentations are not going to be classified the same way. They’re not going to be called a disorder. They’re not going to be called an illness. Just that language is detrimental. And so exploring these different ways of talking about what it is that I’m experiencing, that is an illness or isn’t through disordered language is really helpful.
Chloe: Sure. Which, again, the DSM is like a whole systematic thing, right? That contributes to this erasure of experience.
Colette: Well, and that’s one thing I could get on a soap box about, just about the medical model. Like I hate that in order to help people, I have to use the medical model because that’s how they can afford it, is by using insurance, so I have to diagnose them. When I just want to say you are a human living a life.
Chloe: Yes. Yes. Yes. [01:04:00] Yes. Sorry. Keep going.
Colette: No, I don’t know if I have anything else to say, but it’s just been something I’ve been wrestling with that I’m only on one insurance panel because Select Health is a really big payer in Utah. It’s a very common insurer. And so I just got on that one and my caseload’s full. So right now I’m not feeling the need to get on more, but because of that, when I have clients that are on Select Health or when they are doing out of network and submitting superbills to their insurance, I have to diagnose them.
But that’s just one of my big pet peeves that I’d never really had to wrestle with until I’m at this job because when I worked at places before, my services were just part of the program. And now people coming in for therapy, I have to do diagnosis most of the time. When I just want to diagnose them as having a life and having issues because of that. There’s nothing wrong with you, but like the system that’s around you is broken.
And I’ve had so many clients this week in particular, but lately just coming in and talking about the Roe versus Wade leak and talking about just different [01:05:00] systemic things, I’m like, I know this sucks and I have nothing I can do except support and validate you. Like this system is broken that we are living in, this white patriarchal society.
Chloe: Yeah. It’s like you have anxiety. Like, yes, you should have anxiety. Like it makes sense. It is something that causes anxiety because it is a real fear for people. Like you are not the problem. It is literally the system that is the problem. Oh, I can get on the soapbox too, Colette. But thank you.
Colette: I love it. Yeah. I think we, especially social worker point of view, person in environment, like how can we help people? And I feel so bad sometimes. You know, I have queer clients that come in. I think of one client in particular, a trans woman who is living at home with the very queer phobic family members and transphobic family members that use her dead name, the wrong pronouns. And I’m like, I support and help as much as I can in the session. But then you go home to that. This is a broken system that you’re in, but you can’t leave because the housing prices are [01:06:00] insane. So you are stuck in this terrible environment and it’s not you that’s wrong. It’s this environment. And it’s just heartbreaking. That was an uplifting note.
Chloe: Kate, you opened up a can of worms!
Kate: Sorry. I see now why you were like, I don’t know if I want to do this.
Colette: Get a couple of social workers talking. You’ll hear all our pet peeves.
Kate: I know now I’m trying to think about how to like, wrap it up on, on a note that’s very pro queer. Um,
Colette: Well, it’s hard when we live in a very anti-queer society. One of the big reasons Kate and I started this podcast is yes, we can hear these stories individually and there are similarities and we can learn a lot from hearing individual stories. But so often we do end up having these systemic discussions because that impacts so much of the queer experience.
I remember [01:07:00] someone saying this once and I’m like, yes! It’s, it’s not a problem that I’m queer. My problem is you think it’s a problem I’m queer. That is the issue.
Chloe: Yes. Preach it.
Kate: Maybe we can talk about plans going forward. So you have the podcast, you have work, things are going well. You have a girlfriend. Where do you see yourself going from here?
Chloe: Yeah. So my plan is
Kate: to leave Utah?
Chloe: yes. To leave Utah. Oh my gosh. But yeah, my plan is definitely to like, just stay in Utah to get licensed. So that’s, it’s all about a two year process, if I’m working full time to get licensed. And then after that really I’m just like open to all the possibilities. Like I am like someone who like I don’t want to cement myself in a career for the rest of my life. I really am like interested in like being a doula. Like I think that would be really cool. I’m also interested in like maybe pursuing law or like going into policy or like going into government. So really just like [01:08:00] exploring the possibilities and like creating a beautiful family with my girlfriend and supporting her as a writer. And just like allowing the universe to tell me like, what’s next and like being open.
Kate: I love that because I saw recently something on social media that talked about failure and how we think that things have to be eternal for them to be successful, rather than thinking of them having a specific time and place. And relationships are that way. We can value our relationships and be grateful for the relationships that we have, even if they end. We can be grateful for that in career paths and whatever we choose. So I really appreciate you saying that and being open to that and letting our audience also think about that and let it resonate with them.
Colette: We’ve been all over the place and I’ve loved this discussion, but is there anything you wish that we had asked about, or that you could talk about as we wrap up?
Chloe: No, I don’t. I just want to say thank you for like, going on [01:09:00] this journey with me. Like you said, Colette, we’ve been everywhere in this conversation.
Colette: and I’m already thinking, like, how am I going to write this show note? There’s so many things.
Chloe: Yes. But yeah. Thank you for having me on here.
Colette: I feel great about this. This has been so good. This has been queer joy today.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely.
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