Kate: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, gender queer and intersex experiences. I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/they.
Colette: And I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: Today, we’re talking with Freddy Banks, and we’re so excited to have this conversation, but before we jump into that, we wanted to start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Colette, what brought you queer joy this week?
Colette: I went to a friend’s house a couple of nights ago, and it was really last minute, but it was just a bunch of my queer friends getting together. And I just had so much fun hanging out with them and reflecting back on how much I’ve seen them grow and change in the last few years I’ve known them. This group of people I’ve known for most of my figuring out my sexuality journey and seeing them go, some of them go from being a mixed orientation marriages to now being in same gender partnerships, to see one person go from identifying as a lesbian woman, to a [00:01:00] trans man and staying married with their partner, with that transition to one person who is super private, like not even really publicly out to themselves, to now being on TikTok and talking about being butch. It just brought me so much queer joy to see all these individuals and see queer love because so many of them are engaged or married and it was just really happy.
Kate: That’s awesome. Love that. I love that when we get to just see it, there’s it’s so nice to just be able to actually experience and see queer joys. So.
Colette: And I feel like so often we’re told like queer joy, this is counterfeit joy, right? Growing up in the church. I’m like, no, this is really happy people living their best lives. They aren’t suicidal anymore. This is good stuff. So it just made me happy and it made me also reflect how often my queer joy is community. Like every time I feel like I share it’s another community story, but apparently that’s what makes me happy, is finding queer people and joining with them and friendships. So,
Kate: [00:02:00] That’s also validating to see others and know that like your experience fits in with their experience.
Colette: Yeah. So what about you? What’s your been your queer joy, Kate?
Kate: Yeah. So actually this is going to be a weird one. It’s going to start out not great. I posted recently about being stared at. Living in Romania, people sometimes just stare at me, but I got stared at yesterday in like the weirdest ways. I got three men who were on three different occasions, just sending eye death glare daggers my direction. In fact, one guy just pulled off to the side of the road to let me know through his eyes, that I was transgressing gender lines. And it was really interesting to reflect on that later on in the day, because it didn’t like at this [00:03:00] point I am a little bit used to that, but I recognize later how like comfortable and in my body and ready, I am to just embrace who I am.
There have been lots of times in my life where I’ve shut that off and shrunk literally shrunk into myself. Like I’m not worthy of taking up the space that I’m taking up. But yeah, I’ve had a lot of chance to reflect on how emboldened, I feel just to exist as I am and do and dress and walk and sit exactly how I want to.
And that, yeah, that was like a lot of gender euphoria, but also a lot of queer joy just to be able to exist without any sort of apology.
Colette: I think that’s huge. And I saw your post on Instagram about it, and that picture. You looked good. [00:04:00] If anyone wants to go check Kate out, like that was such a powerful post of just you owning you and not having to perform gender. Like I just, and it was a really good picture.
Kate: Thank you. Thank
Colette: Everyone should know that Kate’s blushing real hard right now.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. So apparently I’m not quite as emboldened as I thought I was.
Colette: You can take the hate, but the love apparently is a little much.
Kate: Yeah, apparently. Anyway, Freddy is here with us too. And has some queer joy I’m sure.
Freddy: I do. I also just looked up the picture. Can confirm it looks good. It looks good. All right, my queer joy is a little silly, but I thought it would be fun to spread the good word of, are you. all familiar with the word game sensation, taking over the internet Wordle?
Colette: Of course!
Kate: I’ve heard of it. Yes.
Freddy: All right. There is a lot of alternatives have been cropping up and they’re all like, there’s a Sweardle, there’s a Lewdle, there’s [00:05:00] a one where you tried to solve two at one time. There’s a Primal where it’s about prime numbers, instead of words, like people are very creative. Anyway, the one that some I saw someone share and I now do immediately after my Wordle, everyday is Queerdle and it’s queerdle.com, queer D L e.com. And I don’t know, it’s just very silly and it’s just very fun. It’s narrow in as far as what queer joy. It taps into a lot of drag race references, for example. Having said that, it’s still just fun and silly and there are some cool moments. The other day, the word was Compton and then it had a link to the Compton Cafeteria Riot Wikipedia page. If you were unfamiliar, if you thought, why is that a queer word? It was doing a little bit of education there. So anyway, just promoting Queerdle. It’s also fun, the emojis that you can share at the end instead of just being squares is like a peach emoji and like the three, like water dropping emoji. So anyway, it just always makes me giggle and I enjoy it. It’s a little bit of queer joy every morning when I wake up [00:06:00] and do the Wordle and the Queerdle.
Colette: I am so glad you told us about that. I just looked it up and I plan on doing it right after we finish interviewing because I love word games. And so if I can have queerness and a word game together, like this is fantastic.
Kate: That is queer joy. Awesome.
Freddy: One of the hard parts is that it’s not always a five letter word. So on the days when it’s a longer word, I’m like, come on, I’m not smart enough to do this, but yeah, it’s fun.
Kate: Did you get Compton?
Freddy: I did get Compton, but I was I will, I knew about the Compton Cafeteria Riots, but I was confused until the little like share thing popped up and then I was like, oh, that’s actually awesome. Very cool.
Kate: Actually, I went to visit San Francisco this past summer, and I went to try to find it. It’s in the Timberline District in San Francisco. And it’s very hard to find, like you can’t really go visit. There’s no like anything there, but so I was disappointed by that, but they do have an exhibit for it at the GLBT Museum in [00:07:00] San Francisco that, that share some stuff about that. But thank you. That’s great.
Colette: Well, how about you tell us a little bit about your queer in 60 seconds, queer Mormon story. Want to introduce you to the listeners and get to know you a little bit, Freddy?
Freddy: Yeah, for sure. So I honestly, I wrote notes cause I was like, I’m going to go off on a tangent if I don’t stick to the high level points and just, and we can talk about more later, obviously. So anyway. So I was raised Mormon in the suburbs of Seattle and I was definitely a tomboy until probably like middle school, high school.
And then I found it just, it was more about just fitting in. I, it wasn’t like a, oh, I’m being suppressed. I just was a regular kid being like, oh, to fit in, I should wear clothes from the girls section. Got it. And I didn’t, I don’t, I can think of it like a few minor queer experiences if I, sat down to remember, but nothing that ever made me think I was queer in any way or made me question the Mormon church or how it dealt with queerness in any way, I just was coasting through life freely.
[00:08:00] After high school, I went to BYU Provo, and my freshman year in the dorms, I fell in love with a woman. And for three years for all intents and purposes, we were dating. Like physically, emotionally. The odd thing to me is that in hindsight though, the odd thing to me is we literally never talked about it. We never had a meta conversation about. That we were in love with each other and that we were essentially dating, like what was going on? Wow, we’re gay, like nothing at all about that. And after two to two and a half years of it, this is my hypothesis. This is my head cannon because we actually never even at the end or afterwards spoke about it. But I think she realized that she was at a crossroads that either she had to get cool with a lot of stuff really fast, or she needed to return to the Mormon family values that she had known and been raised in. So yeah, it was at the end of our last year of living together, I was like, oh, we’re gonna find a new apartment next year. Or, are we going to stay here? And she was like, oh, I think I’m actually just going to live with my [00:09:00] sister. And yeah, I don’t think we’re going to be roommates anymore. And I played it cool. But I was crushed. I was deeply depressed. Cause I had no even inkling that I was even in love with her.
I thought we were just best friends doing best friend things. So it was a little dark after that. Though, I will say that’s how I know Colette. After that, I moved into a random apartment, with random roommates and I was in the same ward as Colette and her roommates and they befriended me and were a real bright spot that I remember from that time.
But I graduated from BYU, but I was still living in Provo. And I got engaged for a brief moment to a man. And after I called that off, I remember it wasn’t because of that. It wasn’t because I realized I was queer that I called it off. But shortly thereafter, I happened to watch a coming out video on YouTube. And for a week, I remember every day I got home from work, I just got really, I obsessively really went down these rabbit holes of trying to find more and more coming out videos on [00:10:00] YouTube. And to really be cliche, after about a week, I saw an interview with Ellen DeGeneres and whatever it was specifically about how she shared her story of coming out, it really resonated with me. And I remember I had just a moment at the end of it. That was like, ah, yeah. That’s my life. I’m definitely gay. And I remember immediately after that I literally had a sigh of relief and I thought, oh, I don’t have to be Mormon anymore. And that’s unfortunately at the time, like as deeply as I thought about it, really. I didn’t interrogate that any further or why that was or anything.
But I knew that my family would be really devastated by that. Not being Mormon and potentially also being gay. It wasn’t that I was particularly raised like in a homophobic environment or anything, but I just, I knew that it would not go over well. So I resolved that I would not come out to them until I started dating someone. And then I, felt like I should be honest for the sake of whoever I was dating.
So with that in mind, I moved up to Salt Lake City and there was a friend there I’d gone to BYU with who had also recently come out as queer. And they had, she had already started to form a [00:11:00] community there, a queer community. And it was like the first time in my life. I was not afraid of being alone, of dying alone of never finding love. I wasn’t even dating, but it was just these like beautiful queer people that welcomed me with open arms. And I remember that was the best of times just living in Salt Lake and just hanging out with all these people.
I did start dating someone eventually. And so I did come out to my family and it did go very poorly, but we can get into all that later. Shortly after that, I started dating my now spouse and we hit it off immediately. The rest is history. We’re now married. I remember though after I’d started to date my spouse, we were still living in Salt Lake City. And I remember like growing up, I’d always been really don’t want to indoctrinate is such a strong word, the attitude was people who left the Mormon church were obsessed with Mormonism and were pathetic for being so invested in trying to convince people to leave Mormonism. And it’s, that’s such a poor reflection on them.
And so after I left, and [00:12:00] was living my authentic life, I think I was still under that impression. And I tried to just be like, I’m not Mormon, but other people are, and it’s fine, whatever. And it wasn’t until I forget the year or even what the name of the rule ended up being. But when the church announced that children of gay parents could not be baptized. And I know that created quite a fervor in many places, but particularly, in Salt Lake at the time, it was a big deal and online, it was a really big deal. I remember a lot of people talking about it online. Anyway, that was my impetus that I was like, yeah, I, this isn’t like neutral for me. I need to get my name removed and not be a part of this in any way, shape or form.
And I did that, at that point in time. And years passed, like I said, I’m married my spouse. We ended up moving to Canada and in 2018 I had become involved in some communities online that were spearheaded by trans women. And they were just awesome niche communities. We’re all hanging out in. And I realized, I didn’t know anything about the trans experience or trans people. And [00:13:00] once again, YouTube integral to my queer journey, I started watching a lot of trans men on YouTube and it became much like the first time, a bit of an obsession. Like every spare moment I was seeking out, trans men transition timeline videos, and coming out stories. And even just, vlogs like just like obsessively trying to soak it all in. And I don’t remember recall a specific experience like the Ellen DeGeneres video, but there was certainly after a moment just being like, yeah, this is absolutely my life. Like this is who I am.
I didn’t want to tell my family because seven years prior, I knew it was going to be I just assumed it was gonna be a really bad time. And I was also working in a really toxic work environment. So I knew that couldn’t happen. And to be fair, once I realized this about myself, I was like, is this something that I’m even going to act on? Okay, I’m pretty confident that now I am trans, am I going to transition or is this just something that will help me internally and I should just live my life?
But by early 2019, I really felt like I was lying to my spouse by not telling them that I was [00:14:00] trans. And so I told them, and they were phenomenal about it. They were so incredibly supportive. And at the end of 2019, I was able to quit my job. So shortly after that, I came out in some of these online communities that I’ve been a part of. And I came out to some friends in my real life that were also in these communities that I knew. Like I didn’t want them to see on Twitter, me tweeting about being trans and not have me tell them, first. And everywhere I came out, was incredibly supportive. It was, I feel grateful and lucky that I had such a good fortune of starting out, my authentic life on such a positive note. Everybody was really validating and supportive.
So I started to try to do medical transition in 2020, and COVID hit so everything to a backseat. And then I got very sick. I have Crohn’s disease and I had been on medication for a very long time that was working for me. And in 2020 it stopped working for me. And it all culminated as was like six months of being bedridden to, I was hospitalized end of 2020 for a month. And at the [00:15:00] end of that, I got an ileostomy, which for me meant a total colectomy and I have a stoma now. And when I got out, in the beginning of 2021, I thought deeply about how, if the worst had happened and I had died, that I would have died in a lie.
And that was my impetus. That was, I was like, that’s not okay. I don’t ever want that to be the case. So I came out to my family and there were many better responses, which was very heartwarming and a highlight of it all, that some people had grown so much in seven years to be able to be like, great. We love you. That’s great. And there were still some terrible responses that, I was glad I had the prior experience seven years ago because it did not affect me as deeply as it had before. I was like, great, whatever. I don’t need that. So I will move on. And then, yeah, last year I started my hormone replacement therapy and I got top surgery and that’s the story. Very long 60 seconds.
Kate: Whoo. That’s awesome though. [00:16:00] Congratulations. That’s a high, that’s a great note to end on.
Freddy: Thank you.
Colette: And there’s just so much to dive into. When we were arranging this. I was like, here’s some stuff I want to talk about. And now you’re saying even more stuff that I’m like, oh my gosh, I didn’t know this. And I didn’t know this. There are so many amazing aspects of your story that I think are just fascinating to me personally, because like you said, we knew each other at BYU when I was, I jokingly say when I was still straight. Not, I didn’t realize at that point, you, I didn’t know until just now that you had this relationship with a roommate that. I think Kate and I both understands how that kind of can go. And anyways, there’s so much that we just don’t talk about. And then I remember when you came out, when you started dating your spouse, that was about the time I was starting to date my roommate in Boise.
And I just distanced myself because I’m like, I think just that internalized homophobia and me trying to wrestle with my own [00:17:00] sexuality. So I’m just so excited to have this conversation, to get to know you better, now that I have immersed myself a little bit more in the queer community. And I think there’s so many things we can talk about that could really benefit people who just are so unfamiliar with this space. Even within the queer Mormon space, it is so cis male centered. And so to have a trans man and your experience, I’m just, I’m thrilled. So all that to say, where do we even start?
Freddy: I do want your, one of your notes about like you didn’t even know. And yeah, that was part of my experience was that because I was not even aware that what I was feeling was love and the depression wasn’t just, oh, I lost someone I loved. Because it was a loss. Like I tried to reach out afterwards and she never contacted me again, even now. We’ve never talked again. And it was compounding, because I was like, why do I feel so bad about losing a friend? Friendships end all the time. Snap out of it, get it together, whatever. And when I [00:18:00] had my realization that I was queer, it really was healing to be like, people who lose the loves of their life at that time. I now have another love of my life. But, at the time that is something that causes deep depression, that’s okay to feel that. And it’s good to feel that. But because I didn’t realize that until after, we had parted ways. Like it wasn’t even something I could talk about. I didn’t want to be like, yeah, I lost my best friend and I just sleep all day. Isn’t that weird? You know? It’s like, how do you talk about it?
Colette: I think in our society in general, we just suck at talking about heartache and grief in general.
Freddy: Absolutely.
Colette: That’s why my professional field is always going to be needed, a place that people can start to unpack. But thank you for talking about that experience. I think that is a very real thing that people who haven’t realized their queerness, have that experience of like my emotions are not making sense. Like what the heck is going on.? That’s a really real thing for sure. But Kate, did you have a place you wanted to start in asking questions?
Kate: Oh, my gosh, I have so many questions actually. It’s really [00:19:00] because your story resonates so much with me. I understand so much of what you’re talking about and there’s a lot to, to unpack it. Like my brain though is going to the end of your story. And I would rather go in order and ask you about these earlier realizations, because a lot of our guests, because we focus on a genderqueer and also AFAB experience, there’s a sense that our guests don’t know these things because they felt like they’ve been cut off from their sexuality. So do you, can you talk to that? Do you know, can you say something to that?
Freddy: That’s an interesting question. I can try and let me think for a second here. That certainly might’ve been part of it that I like he’s like your other guests, just weren’t aware because the gendered experience of the Mormon culture is that you are not sexual. Yeah, I think that’s probably an [00:20:00] apt. I mean, I don’t know that I have much to add, but yeah. Like that lens of being like, oh, I didn’t even think of what we were doing as sexual or romantic in any way, because I am not a sexual romantic person was probably a huge part of it. The interesting thing, is the second year that we live together and worked together, she dated a couple of people. I dated someone and they were both very short relationships, but like nothing really changed between us either. I have no real thoughts about, cause I just, in hindsight I’m like how bizarre. Not in a judgmental way, but just some like an anthropological wow, this is what the heck, but yeah, sorry, not too much to add to that, but yeah, that’s, I think that’s a good lens and an interesting way to think about it.
Kate: Actually, that, that moves me into the next question I have for you, for me, being raised Mormon and in such a gendered culture, I identify a lot as an [00:21:00] AFAB person, somebody who was assigned female at birth, because I was raised that way and told I needed to act and be a certain way. And you talked earlier about how I just have to dress in these clothes. This is what is socially acceptable. And so there’s a whole way of being raised, even though, your gender doesn’t match what you’re being told, you should like, what you should do, the way you should act, the way you should walk. I didn’t realize that the way I walked was going to be so important to me once I came out as non binary. But can you talk about how you identify with being trans as being growing up in a gendered community like Mormonism.
Freddy: Yeah, I think I was really fortunate in that I was the youngest of five, so I think a lot of what could have been very like punitive upbringing was lost because of my parents were just tired. So I think I got away with things like, Hey, for [00:22:00] elementary school, I want to where my older brother’s cargo jeans and his skateboarding shirt to school. And I want to cut my hair short, which I was never allowed to cut it as short as the boys had it, but I got some shorter bobs. That was one thing I wasn’t allowed. But anyway, all to say, I think I, I lucked out a bit in that I did get to just be myself regardless of gender for a bit.
And there’s like little things, I think I’m not entirely answering your question straight on, but what’s coming to mind is I remember always like really wanting to mow the lawn because that was the boy’s job and I was never allowed. And in hindsight, now I have to mow our lawn and I hate it. It’s such a pain, but I think about it every time that like, yeah, I wanted this as a kid and now you got it.
Another aspect to this for me personally, is that I joke that compartmentalization is my superpower. I think it is for a lot of Mormons, and maybe people in any number of religions, but [00:23:00] so the things that might’ve been tough for, I thought were being put upon me was just that’s how it is. And I do this other thing or okay, this is how I feel, but I’m going to go do X anyway. So sometimes I laugh at myself, learning and unlearning, I should say to it’s not judgment. It’s just how it was. And in some ways, that’s, that was survival. Like I often think about if I had realized I was queer or even trans earlier, like on the one hand, being your authentic self there’s, nothing like that feeling. And on the other hand, too, if I had known while I was at BYU, if I had figured it out while I was living under my dad’s roof, what kind of trauma would that have led to, I’m not sure. So I don’t know. I don’t feel like I answered your question, but those were the thoughts that came to mind based on your question.
Kate: No. No you did. But there’s specifically, I’m thinking about going to Young Women’s. For me, this idea that you separate youth into these two groups along a binary that doesn’t work, and forcing kids [00:24:00] into a certain group, especially now I talked to a lot of nonbinary kids who are forced to go to one or the other, and there isn’t really a place for them. And they don’t feel like they have a group for them. Did you ever feel like going to Young Women’s was weird?
Freddy: Only in kind of superficial ways. I think I was pretty unaware. Like I didn’t like wearing dresses was like the only thing, you know, I think was really on the surface level for me. I will say, it’s like a really common narrative to talk about, envisioning your future life, envision your husband, envision the family you’re going to have, as a way to keep Mormon kids, Mormon young women specifically in a track that keeps them in what the Mormon church wants them to do.
And I wasn’t aware at the time, but in hindsight I never imagined those things. And it wasn’t that I felt like consternation about that. It was just that, like they would say, think about your future husband, those qualities you want him to have. And I would be like Um, [00:25:00] yeah, I guess. sure. You know, And I never really had a picture of any sort of plan. And I know when I first met my spouse, that was one thing that they talked about. Like when they left the church, it was like a real crisis for them because they had to navigate all of these expectations. They had had and been taught and I realized like I kind of was playing along, but none of it really sunk in for me, which turned out to be a real blessing because, you know, like I said, when I finally realized like, oh, I don’t have to be Mormon anymore. It was not, I did not feel much of a loss. I just was like great an obligation that I didn’t care about much to begin with is out the window.
Colette: Thank you so much. I think that’s really interesting perspective that people who the binary works for, haven’t probably taken the time to think about. And so I really appreciate you bringing that up and hopefully giving some people things to think about. Going along with that, Kate and I had been talking a little before the [00:26:00] episode about the idea of masculinity, and I’m not sure if you have anything to say about that as far as, so often being in a binary society, it’s either toxic masculinity or almost like a different version of femininity. So as you’ve come to realize your gender identity and yourself, what’s your view on masculinity? If you can speak to that, maybe that’s a really broad, big question.
Freddy: It is a very big question. I do have thoughts. I’m hesitant. They’re a little bit radical, but I’m not hesitant to share. I just am like, this is a big concept. So if this is like to anyone listening or you two is like, what the what? I understand, and I’m still grappling with them as well, but there is someone I follow on Twitter that I’ll give a little shout out to who does not know I exist, so it’s not like a mutual friend or anything, but his handle is queer socialism. And I’ve just learned a ton, mostly like [00:27:00] political stuff from what he has shared and how he thinks about, not just political topics, but also, he speaks to gender and sexuality and these types of things. And a tweet of his introduced me to the concept of a term that actually a trans woman had coined.
I wrote down some notes here, but I actually failed to write down her name and I feel silly about that. Anyway, called hegemonic masculinity and the premise, or the theory is that to call a branch of masculinity, toxic masculinity, ignore us that in its very nature, masculinity is hegemonic. It seeks to dominate. It is only in position of its superiority in the patriarchy, compared to femininity, that it exists. And the problem of saying there are good men who are shutting down toxic masculinity, and therefore that is how masculinity can be good, but if you’re not, examining and working to dismantle the power structure within masculinity itself, then are you not also performing a version of toxic masculinity? So real heady [00:28:00] stuff, intense. Like I said, I’ve read an article about it and the discussion around this particular tweet that was a while ago now, but it’s always stuck in my head. And when I read through, the questions you had sent ahead, that’s where my mind went. So I went to pull some of the resources and reread to make sure I could speak to it.
But as far as my gender journey, then how does that incorporate? And I will say I do think about that a lot, that I don’t really seek to be masculine in any way, but like aesthetic. I don’t think of myself too often as like a man doing man things, you know? I think of myself as myself and I think of the performance of masculinity as far as my hairstyle and my clothes. And past that, I just try to live my life. And I think that is good. And this is also making me think of the fact that some people in the queer community misidentify that trans men or [00:29:00] trans masculine people have male privilege and while some trans men or trans masc people can, at brief periods, access male privilege, I don’t think it’s ever the same as the male privilege that cis men have.
And so even though that is the case, or I believe that’s the case in my study thus far, I think it’s also so important to be aware of those brief moments when I can get access to male privilege and making sure that I’m, like I said before, you’re working to dismantle the power structures that oppressed versus just going along for the ride or being like, oh, they see me as a man. Great. Yeah. I’m going to make fun of my wife and you’re like, oh no, don’t do that. Please be better. So yeah, there’s a lot there. I probably just opened a can of worms as far as like different conversation topics, but those were my thoughts.
Kate: Not a can of worms. You’re I think expanding all of our minds and helping all of us to be able to grapple more with this. Because in my research, I’ve found [00:30:00] that gender theory is changing and evolving so rapidly to the point that scholarship really can’t even keep up, because if you’re gonna publish in gender theory, your work isn’t going to be out for another year. And the way that it’s evolving and being talked about online is just going so quickly that there’s no way that gender theory can really keep up, unless you’re also keeping track of what’s going on in the online conversations.
And so folks who have come out as trans like 10 years ago are really the trans elders. The trans elders are also rapidly changing their perspectives, even like Judith Butlers or other people who are really prominent in the community, their ideas are rapidly changing. So I think this is a really important concept for people who aren’t familiar with this whole online space and world where that’s taking place. This is just like a really good [00:31:00] introduction into that. So thank you for bringing that up.
Freddy: I do want to add, because I felt so silly. I absolutely credit where credit is due. Raewyn Connell is the trans woman that, at least from what I read coined the term hegemonic masculinity, and has an article by the same title and has written further in it in a book called Masculinity. So anyway, if anyone is interested for the reading Raewyn Connell. Shouts out to her.
Kate: And you have that up, right? Can you tell us what year that is?
Freddy: The article is cited on as her article is coming out in 2014. This is the article that I read.
Kate: Thank you.
Freddy: Yeah, that links to it.
Colette: We’re both super into this stuff. So this is fascinating.
Freddy: Okay. Is this a lot for like one conversation? That’s that was my only hesitation was like, oh, this is there’s a lot to talk about.
Kate: Yeah. So I think the way we can segue is to talk about gender dysphoria and gender euphoria and how that, because I think that your journey probably involved a lot of, at least gender euphoria and [00:32:00] figuring all of that out. And that’s more of what helps us to come out. I think. That’s my perception.
Freddy: Yeah. I love that. I didn’t even think about talking about gender euphoria, so thank you. That was instrumental to my coming out as trans was the concept of gender euphoria and sure enough, watching a YouTube video. There’s a trans man named Aaron Ansuini who doesn’t make so many videos now, but is very active on Twitter, but he has a video where he talks with another trans YouTuber Ash Hardell and they talk about gender euphoria.
When I saw that for the first time, that really spoke to me because, again, my kind of compartmentalization or like lack of self-awareness that was exceptionally bad, early in my life. And I’m working on trying to be more in touch with my body and recognizing these things, but I would never have described any of my experiences as like dysphoric.
Maybe some, my, my chest dysphoria was quite bad, but I was pretty unaware of it, or it was so suppressed that I didn’t even search for a label for it or whatever. I [00:33:00] thought, oh yeah, everybody hates their body, like whatever. But the times when I went to a store and someone mis-gendered me and said, oh, sir, or being mis-gendered on the phone, like these moments of gender euphoria before coming out, helped light my way to realizing who I was.
All to say yeah, gender euphoria helped me a lot. Also, I will say, I got top surgery in November of 2021. And afterwards, I realized that, I’ve had struggled with my mental health, my whole life, and, most often depression, and after top surgery, if it’s plotted on a scale, my depression as it varies, there was at least a solid two points off the scale. Just from getting top surgery and that I didn’t ever identify or realize. But afterwards I was like, I just feel generally better. There are still highs and lows, but the freedom of taking care of that huge aspect of dysphoria in my life was absolutely life changing.
Colette: And I [00:34:00] think you bringing that up is so fascinating to probably a lot of listeners. We interviewed a trans woman recently. She talked about how she knew since she was like five. Like I am a woman. And I think you using the term compartmentalization is really key here. Like I could imagine people being like, how did one, how did you not know you were gay? And then two, how did you not know you were trans? It’s you! How can you be so cut off from yourself that you don’t even realize you’re experiencing gender dysphoria. And I don’t know if you have answers to this, but I think it could be an interesting conversation about how did you not know and how, why did it take you so long to figure yourself out?
Freddy: Yeah. I think part of it was definitely exposure. I have no recollection of being aware of any trans person until like maybe after undergrad. I really was just not aware of trans people living [00:35:00] joyfully or not, in any way, even as a concept. Queer people, I would, like stereotypically, like gay men, I think I was aware of. And I remember watching Rosie O’Donnell’s talk show a lot with my mom in high school. So I was somewhat aware of a few things. But yeah, I, it was just always something else. It wasn’t me, it was something I watched, or heard about or whatever.
And that was part of, I will say why I had such a negative expectation about coming out to my family is because I really felt, and it kind of, I was kind of right. That, like I came out to them via email because I thought if I call them or meet them face to face my parents or any of my siblings and tell them I’m queer. And I know that I’m queer and I can’t tell you much beyond that. I can try to share how I feel, but I have no pinpoint. I have no [00:36:00] mountain of evidence or whatever. That they would like debate me on it, that they would be like Well, what about this and this and that, and that’s exactly what happened with many of them. Even over email, they were like, one sentence that sticks out from my mind from one of my brother’s emails, he said, I don’t buy it. And at the time I was crushed, now I laugh because it’s like what’s there to buy, it’s just, it’s who I am. Yeah.
To people that would ask, like, how would you not know? I don’t have a good answer, I guess it’s just I don’t know how much is attributable to, an kind of Mormon cultural phenomenon of compartmentalization or how much of it is just my quirky self. And this was something that was up with me and, I’m trying to get better at it.
Colette: No. Thank you. I didn’t mean to maybe have that be such a pointed, like I wasn’t trying to call you out or anything, but I like, obviously I compartmentalize to the point that I was dating a woman and was still convinced I was straight, so I get it.[00:37:00]
Freddy: Yeah. Yeah, no, and I didn’t take it. that way. I just, in straw, man, trying to think, if someone did say that.
Colette: Yeah. Do you mind talking a little bit more about the experience coming out to your family first as lesbian, queer, and then later as trans and share more of that.
Freddy: Yeah, sure. I was fortunate in that when I had that realization and I thought I don’t have to tell them until I start dating someone, I was helped because I was still living in Provo. And my parents were still living out of state. And I only had one sibling that was living in Utah and the rest of them were scattered around the Pacific Northwest and still are.
I didn’t have to interact, you know, there’s lots of people that are like, Oh, I still live at home. Or I see them every Sunday for dinner or, different situations like that. And I was like, I don’t see them very often. We don’t talk very often. So I’m good. I’m just gonna stay under the radar.
But like I said, yeah, I felt like it was for me. And I know lots of people don’t, for whatever reason, this is not I’m not saying this is a morally, just like [00:38:00] imperative that when you start dating someone, you have to come out or anything. But that for me was my kind of litmus. And yeah, I had one sister-in-law, I’ll highlight the good. I had one sister-in-law who replied to my email was just like, that’s great. I love you. And I was like, awesome. That was a shining spot for sure.
And I remember my mom was very sad. In the same email. I said, I’m queer and therefore I’m no longer Mormon. To me, those were at odds with each other. And I thought, why would I stick around in an organization that did not value all parts of me? And so I think there was honestly, maybe more sadness that I was talking about not being Mormon anymore, compared to being queer. My mom sent me at the time. I don’t know if it’s still the URL MormonsAndGays.org. I don’t know if that’s still active. I’m getting nods. Okay. That’s wild. Anyway, I remember her
Colette: It’s not still active, but we’re familiar with it when it did exist.
Freddy: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. That’s good. Yeah, I remember my mom’s sent me the link and I was like, can’t you do this? And again, for as little as I had [00:39:00] consciously thought in advance about how my queerness and my religious affiliation at the time were at odds. I didn’t have a lot of conscious thoughts about it, but then once confronted with it, I was immediately and very confidently no, I’m not going to agree to live a celibate life. I’m not going to agree to be, second class in your organization. Like that to me was intolerable and I had no waffling about it. And I understand absolutely why you would and it just, it was a weird spot for me where I think I was a lot less attached to the religion than. Had pretended to be or thought that I was. And so it was just a very clear not at all.
The sister that I had that lived in Utah. She replied to my email and said, we have to meet, I have to talk to you about this. And I was like okay. I understand. I will meet. And we will talk about it. And again, like I had a highlighted that I had been lying about a few things. I tried to omit as much as possible when I talked to my family while I was between the, you know, realizing I was queer and stopped going to church for, until I came out to them. So I was mostly trying to [00:40:00] omit when I talked to them about religious things in that period of time, but a few times I had to just outright lie and say oh yeah, I’m going to church. See you later. And that was what really stuck out to her and really bothered her. And we met up so she could talk about it. She had printed out my email and made notes and highlighted and was like, okay, will you talk about this here? And that means you lied to me about this.
And I remember thinking at the time that’s what you’re taking away from this. That’s… okay. Interesting. That’s really not what I thought was going to be the focus for everybody, but okay. And then I will say, I know I’m taking a long time, but probably the biggest thing to me is despite my family and I, not talking very much, we just whenever we saw each other, we just pick up where we left off and it, we all look a lot the same. We all talk the same, have like same cadences. Like I dunno. So there’s lots of ways in which we had this manufactured, like closeness that I always mistook for, like my family and I are very close. And so when this happened for the first time, when I came out as queer and it all kind of it shattered it, and that was really the most [00:41:00] devastating part to me about it was like, I had this vision of, we are family thick and thin, even though we don’t talk very much, even though we don’t maybe know each other’s ins and outs, we’re still close.
And after this happened, all these, you know, responses I got that I thought were pretty hurtful. I thought this was a lie. This was not real. Because if one of you came to me with this or something that I didn’t understand, I would not respond this way. And if a friend I thought was close with, came to me with something like this, I would not respond this way because I would be, I would care more for them than whatever else. So that was the hard part. I think the biggest challenge in coming out for me.
Kate: That’s rough. I’m sorry about that. But it sounds like things have gotten… like time does heal some things and people learn a lot. It sounds like the next coming out was better. But what I hear from all of these responses is the way that folks, when we’re coming out, the way that folks [00:42:00] internalize that about themselves, what they believe for themselves, what they think about you for themselves, that it’s like. There’s very much a disconnect of the empathy of, I wonder what that’s like for my sibling, for my child. It’s very much what does this mean about me? What does this mean about my religion and all that sort of stuff, which is just really quite terrible, actually. So I’m sorry that you went through that.
I hope that folks who are listening realize like this, when somebody comes up to you, it’s not about the other person. It’s a really deeply personal experience for the queer person and that person needs a lot of empathy.
Colette: One thing that I’m curious about maybe it’s just my own curiosity. I didn’t really start wrestling with my sexuality until after the Supreme Court ruling made gay, queer marriage legal in the United States and you were dating your now [00:43:00] spouse when it wasn’t. I think you got engaged shortly after it became legal, if I remember right. But what was that experience like? Because I’m so disconnected from that. It’s not ancient history. It’s recent, but I was jokingly again, still straight back then.
Freddy: Yeah. I had to look it up because when you mentioned that before it, I was like, when did it?
Colette: The Supreme court ruling was June 26th, 2015,
Freddy: Yeah, I guess I don’t have too much of a good answer because I remember when my, I started dating my spouse and two weeks after we started dating, we were just casually talking about marriage. And I know you’re like, lesbians. Course you’re talking about marriage, but we weren’t talking about it to each other.
Colette: Thank you for fitting the stereotypes.
Freddy: Yeah. It was a very generic marriage conversation. And they said like I had said when I moved up to Salt Lake and it was the first time I’d had this community and everyone was just so beautiful and accepting. And I felt like [00:44:00] myself for the first time in probably my whole life. And it was the first time I wasn’t concerned about marriage. This is the first time that my lifelong fear of dying alone was not present. Constant presence on my mind.
So we’re having this conversation and I say, yeah, it was like, you know, I think if I found someone that I want to spend the rest of my life with, I don’t really care if we got married or not. Like I can see the logistical benefits of government signed piece of paper, but I’m not, I’m no longer like really preoccupied with it. And my spouse said, oh, that’s so cool. Yeah. I absolutely want to get married. I like cool. Uh, I didn’t, it honestly didn’t phase me. I was like, great. Like, you know, as I had just said I don’t care. So if someone wants to get married, I’ll get married. And didn’t phase me. So that’s where I think my head was at as far as getting married or not. And then the legality of it, that’s really interesting that was the timeline. Because we got married in 2016 and moved to Canada like a week after we got married. So I don’t know [00:45:00] what our logistical plan was prior to same-sex marriage getting legalized. I should have asked them maybe they had more conscious thought about it. Because they knew they were going to school. And so everything we had researched at that point was like, oh you’ll get into the country on my student visa. That’s very much predicated on being legally married. So I don’t recall. I’m sorry, I don’t have a juicier answer for you.
Kate: No, that is a juicy answer because the importance of marriage is not just yay, we get a ceremony and be married. There are really intricate legal benefits such as being able to get a student visa with your spouse to go to move to another country. And yeah, that was those legal logistics that were happening right at the same time for you all is really interesting.
Freddy: Yeah. I, now I regret they, they ran an errand, so they’re not even home or else I would say hold on a second. Let me just go ask. But there was a whole process too, because they knew when they needed to apply to grad [00:46:00] school, basically, I’m sure you’re both aware of it. It’s very stressful time. Lots of deadlines and requirements. So working backwards from that, they said I want to get married in Utah because that’s where all our friends are, but then we need to get to Canada and grad school. So we were, and then they were like, when from, if we need to get married, now I need a year to plan. And so it was all very planned out. And I did what I was told and it was a delight.
Colette: And how was that wedding? I think, going back to our idea about queer joy, I think so often our stories can be focused on queer pain, but let’s talk about a queer wedding. What was that like for you?
Freddy: Yeah, it was awesome. We had a great time. In hindsight, there are so many things we would have done different and, tried to do better, but we were broke. We literally drove across the country to Canada the next week and had a hundred dollars after paying our new apartment deposit and yada yada, and we’re waiting for Kay’s student loans to come through. So we could pay the next month’s rent and whatnot. So [00:47:00] anyway, we did what we could at the time, but even recognizing things we might’ve changed afterwards, it doesn’t erase. Like we both have discussed many times, like it was the happiest we think we’ve ever felt. And part of that is like how could you not? It’s a whole day when everything is about you. And for both of us, you know, that doesn’t happen super often. And so, it was great. We had lots of, it was small it friends, family, just cause we couldn’t afford to have a big wedding.
I was just thinking about how, oh, that might be an interesting talking point. Cause it’s like, oh, traditionally don’t like parents help out to pay. And for me, I think it was less about oh, we don’t approve, therefore we’re not going to help pay for it. It was just like that my parents were not in a position to help and maybe there was some kind of homophobia there at the time, but they never intimated as such. I think it was just kind of a, I was older quote unquote, I say that. I think I was 25. So older for Mormons.
Colette: So old for Mormons.
Freddy: Yeah, anyways, so yeah, we had it. The friends that came were [00:48:00] so lovely and also joyful with us. Kay’s family was very joyful. My family, it felt weird. And my mom was delightful. I have a very distinct memory of after, the ceremony and the toasts And everyone just mingling at the end. My mom came up to me. He was so proud and said, I talked to every single person here and I said, that’s amazing. thank you so much. That’s great. And I, yeah, I had a great memory of that, but I, this is a probably to get edited, but Kay asked me. Kay was like, you’re, are you prepared to talk about this? If your family listens to it or are you ready for that? And I was like, we’ll find out.
Anyway, I will go ahead and say that my dad was like visibly unhappy for most of the entire event. To the point that Kay and I had about five people come up to us separately, pull us aside and say, is that guy okay? Is something wrong? Do you need some help? And we were [00:49:00] like, Nope, it’s okay. Don’t worry about it. And on the day I remember observing it and just pushing it from my mind. Again, compartmentalization superpower, just focus on the joy that was there and the support we were getting. And the people that were there and celebrating.
I had tried to hedge it. I sent an email to my family before the wedding, when we were sending out the save the dates and said, listen, I understand this might be hard for you. I want everyone there to want to be there and to attend if they can absolutely feel the joy that we feel in getting married. And I would ask you to be honest with yourself, and if you cannot meet that expectation, just don’t come. I understand that might seem harsh or unfair, but like just don’t come. It’s really okay. It’s okay. Just don’t come. And I had one brother-in-law that didn’t come because of that. And it’s better for it, honestly. Absolutely. [00:50:00] And I think that probably my mom didn’t really make an option for my dad to opt out in that way, but yeah. It really was all said and done weighing all the pros and cons of a beautiful joyful day with some anecdotal rough spots.
Colette: And thank you for your honesty in that. I think, working with a lot of individuals that are queer, I have a lot of boundary conversations about what is okay with you and what is not. And I think it’s totally appropriate to send out that sort of email saying, I only want you there if you actually want to be there. We’re thrilled. We’re happy. This is such a happy moment for you. I look at the pictures and you are just both glowing. Like they are beautiful. You’re so in love. But the reality is, I hate that. You have to question if people want to celebrate with you. And that is one of the hard realities that a lot of queer people who grew up in high demand religions have to face. So I appreciate your honesty, but I’m so glad that you use your compartmentalization super power to just [00:51:00] still be present and enjoy this amazing day celebrating you and your love.
Kate: So I have some questions that don’t have to do with a wedding, but we’ll probably go off for a few more minutes. I would like to talk about your transition if that’s okay.
Freddy: Of course.
Kate: And especially because healthcare for trans folks, I don’t think that people who aren’t trans recognize how hard it is to access healthcare and the ways that it’s really difficult. And also yeah, it sounds like you were going through a healthcare system while transitioning doing having multiple different issues. Did that impact your healthcare?
Freddy: Yeah. I when I started to pursue medical transition in 2020, and I started to have problems with the medication I was on for my Crohn’s disease. I absolutely stopped pursuing hormone replacement [00:52:00] therapy because of my problems with Crohn’s disease. Because I, and I don’t think this is necessarily like a, I don’t know, I suppose if we had more information about trans health care, maybe this wouldn’t have been my go-to, but I had just assumed I don’t want to start testosterone while I’m also trying to see if a different drug is helping me or hurting me as far as my Crohn’s disease.
So I say I’m not sure that’s exactly because trans health care is poor and more just that’s a general of thumb. You don’t start multiple new medications at the same time, but I don’t know. I could probably be convinced if someone was like no, it’s transphobic. Let me why. I’d be like yeah. But yeah, that absolutely paused that for me.
And then the next thing that’s coming to mind for me is when I was better after my surgery. The longest road in the province I live in is to get top surgery, which is if you’re unfamiliar, anyone listening at home is a double mastectomy and chest masculinization. And it is covered by I think, all, but I’ll hedge and say most, at least where I live it’s covered by the provincial health [00:53:00] insurance is going to say most provincial health insurances, but I’m not positive, but the province I live in it is covered by the provincial health insurance that we pay for out of our taxes.
But it is a very bureaucratic process. In the United States, if you and I only speak to the U S because that’s the only other healthcare system I’m familiar with, but, if you can find a surgeon where you go and say you do top surgery, I want it. You can find places that say, yeah, okay let’s just do it. And they call that informed consent, but in Canada, that for it to be covered under provincial health care, it is not. You have to provide multiple letters documenting that you have gender dysphoria that you are well-informed about the consequences and the results and have healthy expectations, that you have a support system in place for afterwards.
And you might be thinking like that’s good, actually, right? Like we should be checking, but it’s just very interesting. I read this recently. There is a study out that has the satisfaction rates [00:54:00] of surgical results. And the categories are trans surgeries, cosmetic surgeries that aren’t trans and general surgeries, like getting your colon out. Like I did, for instance. And the rates of dissatisfaction for trans related surgeries are like 1% or less. And the rates of dissatisfaction for like cosmetic surgeries are like 20%, 30%, something like that. It’s just, it’s a gatekeeping. There’s lots of different ways you could probably argue about that. If we should be gatekeeping other surgeries more, but that’s, I made me laugh when I got my ileostomy and my colon removed cause nobody talked to me about my mental health. They were like, okay do you want this? And I was like, yeah, I will feel better. Let’s do it. And they’re like, great, your surgery is scheduled. We’ll see you in a bit. Anyway, I’m getting off topic.
Kate: No, will no, we want that is that this is all just so such useful information, especially you have that the Canadian, what goes on in Canada versus what goes on in the United States. That’s really [00:55:00] helpful.
Freddy: Yeah. And I know it’s the only, only other window I have a glimpse into, is UK trans healthcare, where it also is pretty abysmal from what I understand in many ways.
So I went down the path to get this free surgery covered by provincial healthcare. And they needed a, I needed a letter from the therapist. I needed a letter from my GP. I needed this application filled out and then it needs, they needed another letter that just said he understands. And I thought I have a gastroenterologist. He is most involved with my health outside of a GP. He’s even more involved in my, with my health, than a GP, honestly. Because otherwise I’m pretty healthy aside from Crohn’s disease. So surely they will want to see a letter from him saying no, I’ve talked to Freddy about it. It’s all good. I have no concerns despite his stoma and whatever, and it got rejected.
They were like, oh no, we don’t need a, it can’t be a gastroenterologist that has to be like an endocrinologist or another surgeon. So I had to set up an appointment with [00:56:00] someone I’m never seeing again. Cause that’s the other thing to get HRT. They don’t care if you see an endocrinologist, which would be probably most prudent to start, hormone replacement therapy, but they’re unavailable in this province and it’s good ultimately that they don’t require an endocrinologist.
Anyway. It’s just it just proof that these bureaucratic requirements are not in the interest of trans health. They are in the interest of liability and gatekeeping access. I had to make an appointment to see an endocrinologist who I only saw once who was a very nice person, but just wrote me a letter. Like we met, they were like, cool. You’re of sound mind, I’ll send you a letter and I will never see them again. And that’s how it got approved. And after all of that, I jump through all the hoops, and then the wait list for the one clinic that the province I’m in approves like they only approve you to go to one place to get top surgery. And it’s a clinic in Montreal that many other provinces also require people to go. So their waitlist is [00:57:00] bananas. It was after all of this, the most traumatic part of everything was the paperwork.
And then I was like, wait a second. I could do it privately. Like I am very privileged and that we do have some money to make this happen if I needed. And in the end, after all of that, I got it done very quickly at a private plastic surgery clinic in Halifax. And, we’re still paying it off, but ultimately it was a huge benefit. It was such a good thing to, for me to get done that it was worth it to just to go privately.
Colette: No a hundred percent. Thank you so much for highlighting that gatekeeping. That’s something I’ve been seeing as a therapist that I work with several nonbinary and trans clients that will be needing letters at some point for surgeries. And I’m like, if you were to just walk into, women, AFAB people who want breast augmentation can walk in and just get a breast enhancement, but you’re wanting your chest to look different than that.
And I have to say that it’s okay? It’s mind [00:58:00] boggling. And I think people outside of this area just don’t understand how bad that is. I’m glad you were able to get that private thing to see that significant change in your mental health immediately and seeing the couple months later, how good you’re doing, why are we gatekeeping?
Kate: Especially when the research shows that it’s of such a benefit, like every study that’s been published within the last five years is just, the evidence is overwhelming that this is beneficial for trans folks.
I would like to ask you about HRT. Is that okay? I get a lot of questions from parents who are asking about their kids and puberty blockers, and HRT. And they’re very hesitant and nervous about that. And I’ve, I haven’t, and so I don’t have those answers, but how would you be able to help those parents navigate that and answer those questions?
Freddy: Yeah. I unfortunately am [00:59:00] less familiar with the research around that. Because it still wasn’t seamless, but it was much easier to start HRT where I live than it was to get surgery. Mostly because again, proof that it’s liability like. Prescriptions aren’t covered under Canadian socialized insurance. I think, there’s a lot less restrictions because they’re like if you want to pay for it, capitalism, sure. Go for it. Anyway, but what I will say, the things that I’ve read from very intelligent people online highlight the highlights that have stuck out to me is for children they often don’t start either testosterone or estrogen, they start with particularly young children, you start with puberty blockers, which you highlighted. What I’ve read that stuck out was that puberty blockers weren’t invented for trans children, they were invented and are used so often for a myriad of other issues for non trans children. And no one considers them dangerous until you say the child is trans.
[01:00:00] Also, my understanding is that on puberty blockers, it’s just a delay. It’s not that you are not allowing your child to ever go through puberty. It’s that if they are exploring these things and then in five years, or whenever they say. That’s probably not the right timeframe, I’m so unaware of children’s development. But anyway if after a year or two, they a child’s like, you know what, I’m cool. I actually want breasts or whatever the case may be. I’m going to go off these puberty blockers, then puberty happens. And it’s pretty much just a free test, free trial run. And it’s really no harm no foul. Is my understanding of it.
Additionally, people talk about low dosing hormone replacement therapy. So starting with a very low dose of testosterone or very low dose of estrogen, and just as a trial run. It is true that if you’re on a low dose for a very long time, you will probably see the same changes [01:01:00] as if you had been on a high dose for a short time, or, an average dose for a shorter period of time. So it’s not like you’re dodging the things. Like a common thing I’ll speak specifically just to what I’ve seen, discuss a lot of AFAB people are very hesitant about body hair. And so they don’t want to start testosterone because that is not something they think they want.
And so they think well I’ll start a low dose and then it’ll prolong it. And it does, but what I’ve heard anecdotally is that, even though it takes longer once it hits, it hits. And so you’re there anyway. But the point being, for trans children and parents concerned about their children, I would say you could start with a low dose and just see how everyone feels about it. So if you do a low dose for a short period of time, there really isn’t much that won’t eventually be reversed is my understanding. And it just, if you do an average or high dose for a period of time, then that’s when you start to get into the irreversible changes. But I don’t know. I think it’s just a really good mindset that I’ve seen more and more queer people talk [01:02:00] about online is that gender’s just an experiment to be locked into something or to feel like things are it’s the end of the world, because this is how it’s going to be. Or this is how it is not. Is I’m not serving anyone and to treat it all as a much bigger like experiment and let’s try it. Let’s see what you, how you feel. Let’s see what it goes. Let’s check in. Let’s talk about it. I would imagine is a much healthier approach for everybody.
Kate: Absolutely. Thank you so much for talking about that. I think that’s really going to help people and we had Blaire Ostler on as our first guest and Blaire is intersex and talks about being prescribed the same medications that a trans person would be prescribed. And that’s what you’re talking about over and over again, this gatekeeping for trans people, it’s the same procedures it’s the same medications, [01:03:00] but just when you add trans to it, that’s when it suddenly becomes dangerous. And I don’t think that people have thought enough about that or recognize that enough. So thank you. Thank you for talking about that.
How was your experience with hormone replacement therapy? Because I agree. I think if you, it is an experiment and you work out what works best for you, you would do that with, there are all sorts of medications that you trial and error with. So it would make sense that this would be that same way.
Freddy: Yeah. It’s been great for me. I was very well-informed about how it typically goes for the average person that starts testosterone. And I had no concerns. I had no aversions. Some of the things that people are to be, I’m not, it’s not a moral judgment. It’s if you’re afraid of this change or unsure that you wanted, or whatever, like that’s absolutely valid. And I had none of those concerns. I was like, sure, yeah, like it’s going to happen. It’s going to happen. I was very much of the [01:04:00] school of thought or had seen, this discussions happening around me from other trans people that nobody. No, no doctor, assuming you’re going to see a cis doctor. Nobody is going to be as invested in your care or as knowledgeable about it as you can be. So go in knowing everything as, as much as you can anyway, be equipped, read the literature yourself, and be able to tell people what you want and, be confident about pursuing that, to get what you want.
And so having that perspective and that approach, it makes me feel like some of the gatekeeping is so ridiculous. I’m like, oh my gosh, why do I have to talk to this person and blah, blah, blah. And I think that is still true, regardless of if your other approach, my spouse does assessments for trans people and will sometimes share an anecdote, you know, of like, oh, I saw someone who, this was their first step. They had done zero research. They just knew they had to talk to a therapist and they asked me for a lot of information. [01:05:00] And it blows my mind again, I’m not like judgmental, but just wow, like what a different approach to go to a medical provider and be like, I trust you to tell me, and I’ll just go along with it because I had not been conditioned in that way whatsoever.
And I think that kind of, sometimes it highlights like, oh, maybe there should be something to help. Just make sure people are navigating it appropriately. But on the flip side, it certainly shouldn’t be three letters and four doctor’s notes and this and that to get the care that you need. So I don’t know. It’s just very interesting.
Colette: Well I think that also just highlights just the importance of being your own advocate in so many ways. Queer people generally need to learn this skill in general, that you know your story better than anyone else. And I think that’s an issue, a lot of us, or maybe I’m just speaking for myself, run into, of being so used to turning over our authority to another person or [01:06:00] institution that we don’t necessarily trust ourselves. And so it is a very different paradigm to own your story and your authority of this is me, and this is what I’m doing. Help me jump through the hoops, versus turning over that authority still in saying, navigate this for me. Tell me what I should do.
Freddy: Absolutely. It’s a great point. When I got my ostomy surgery, when I got to the hospital, because I had been through so many medications in the past, like six months prior to being admitted that hadn’t worked, I was pretty resolved. I was like, they’re going to make me go through a big process, but I do not want to leave here without a stoma that I’m going to the bathroom through pretty much.
And weirdly enough, we knew someone else that same week was also ended up getting a stoma from the same surgeon. And when we caught up with him and his spouse a few weeks later to be like, how are you doing? What’s up like stoma buddies? How’s it going? He was having a really hard time with [01:07:00] it, which is understandably so, but it just highlighted to me, I think. And I think that, like you said, that interplay of being queer and, already having a chronic illness probably have this idea that I already don’t trust my body. I already have to fight with doctors. Things are already breaking down in my body, so I have to, manipulate it and make things happen to how I want it to happen. Had already prepared me to accept that versus he is a cis het white guy. And I think it was maybe his first instance of interacting with someone and being like, oh, my body has let me down. What is that about? And like I said, the interplay there between queerness chronic illness, I think is really interesting.
Kate: Agreed.
Freddie, I could talk to you for a long time. I want to deep dive into masculinity at some point with you, but thank you so much for being here. Your story is so multifaceted and this hopefully will be able to help other folks who are going through the same sort of [01:08:00] process. Like you’re so knowledgeable about all of these things. So thank you so much for coming and sharing that and your experience.
Freddy: Yeah, thank you for having me. I was very flattered when Colette reached out and I, like I said, I am not much of a podcast person, but in doing my due diligence, I think you both have stumbled onto a really cool idea. And I’m really grateful for the work that you’re doing. And I think like you said, it’ll help a lot of people.
Colette: Thank you so much.
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