{"id":522,"date":"2023-01-09T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2023-01-09T07:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/?p=522"},"modified":"2023-01-09T14:00:24","modified_gmt":"2023-01-09T21:00:24","slug":"kaneesha-wardle-she-they","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/2023\/01\/09\/kaneesha-wardle-she-they\/","title":{"rendered":"Kaneesha Wardle (she\/they)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Colette:<\/strong> Hello and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, gender queer, and intersex experiences. I’m Colette and my pronouns are she\/her.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> And I’m Kate. And my pronouns are they\/them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Today we are interviewing Kaneesha Wardle, and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jump into that, we wanted to start off by saying what brought us queer joy this week. So Kate, what brought you Queer Joy this week?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Oh my goodness. I’m so excited about this. I was thinking about it earlier today, and my friend, I think you all know Bobbie Lee-Corry and Summer Lee-Corry, they’re just fantastic human beings. Bobbie and Summer like a year ago, moved to San Francisco and while they’ve been there, Bobbie has created just this remarkable, really, really cool shop on Etsy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[00:01:00] And they had called me and told me about it, but seeing it in person, just like was a whole different gender euphoric experience because you know, it was the first time that I had seen certain things that, that hit me in the Mormon zone and in the non-binary zone. And because there aren’t a lot of, there’s not a lot of overlap between Mormonism and non-binary stuff. Seeing that was just like, and it was, it’s exactly like the first time I met Bobbie. When I met Bobbie, we immediately clicked because it was like, oh my gosh, there’s somebody out there in the world who’s like me. And we connected over basketball. We enjoy playing basketball. And so to see the shop that is totally like Bobbie and Summer and have that same experience, but in shop form was really, really cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So [00:02:00] I definitely wanna give a shout out to them. If you wanna go to their Etsy shop, it’s Gay and Gayer goods instead of Dumb and Dumber. Yeah. Yeah, Anyway, so I’m, I’m, I was very excited about that. It actually is not me just like throwing out a product line to follow, like genuinely that brought me a lot of euphoria yesterday. Just queer euphoria and gender euphoria, seeing that shop. Very grateful for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah. You posted that in your stories and I went and looked. I’m like, oh my gosh, this is queer joy. And so that was, thank you for sharing that. And I hope people go check them out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah. All right. Colette, thank you for going to the shop and always shouting out to my stories, but what brought you queer Joy this week?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> My queer joy, as it has a lot lately, involves Kaneesha. We were just driving up to Ogden a couple days ago to go watch a play and we were just holding hands, driving up there, and I was like, [00:03:00] I feel so good. Like, I, I didn’t realize that life could feel this nice. And just like, yeah, we’ve still had some difficulties with dating and both having been raised Mormon and, but I just felt so comfortable and at peace and like life is really good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yeah, they’re still hard things, but my queer joy was just turning to her and being like, wait, did you know life could be this good? Like, this is awesome. And that was like, I couldn’t even put into words. I still can’t, obviously I’m struggling. I keep saying the same things, but like, it’s just so happy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I was going, I was gonna say like it is when you felt so like, Lonely and alone and like nobody got your experience. When you finally do like, see that or experience it, you really don’t have words for it, and I don’t think it’s, it’s very easy to communicate that to straight cis people, but I [00:04:00] know that all queer people who have experienced either gender euphoria or, or been in a relationship, like they know what you’re talking about. Exactly. Like when you just see your person, you’re like, yep, okay. Wow. I didn’t even know. That’s great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Like just literally we were sitting in a car driving and I’m like, could, can life get better? Like this is so great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> I’ve never been in better traffic in my life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I’m so happy for you all. That’s a great ex, that’s a great feeling. I’m, I’m very happy that you’re experiencing that<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Thanks. Well, I’m really curious to hear what Kaneesha’s queer Joy is, because it might<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Is gonna<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yeah. be the same thing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> I wasn’t like for sure was wondering before this recording if ours was gonna be the same. And I’m happy to announce it is not. We are not quite on that same page yet But like Colette was saying, [00:05:00] we got to drive up to see a play and we met my parents there. That was part of my Christmas gift and so we were seeing Elf at Ziegfeld in Ogden and it was just really awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There was a point where one of the actresses just said, yeah, I’m gonna go home to my wife now. You know? And then another scene was of Buddy picking up this elf who was a man and spinning ’em in circles. And the elf was like, I already have a boyfriend. And Buddy was like, you can never have too many boyfriends. And I just laughed. And it brought a lot of queer joy just hearing in normal day, a play in Ogden talking about queer relationships and just being open about that in a public setting. And I really, I really enjoyed that. That brought me a lot of queer joy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah, that brought me a lot of queer joy too. Just holding your hand and [00:06:00] like having my head on your shoulder as we were watching this and like sneaking kisses between scenes and I’m was like not, not afraid of being queer in public too. And then of course seeing that on stage being like, oh, they’re treating queerness as normal. What a concept. That’s cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Yeah. And just being able to look to the side and see my parents and I didn’t get to see their full reaction because I was enjoying the play, but I remember kind of glancing over and like they kind of had like just a little smile, like chuckle on their face. Like maybe we shouldn’t be chuckling about this. But also, yeah, that was kind of funny. And so, It was, it was really cool. I’m glad that we got to go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah, that was a fun Christmas gift. Thanks for letting me be your date<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> My plus one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> So if people haven’t gathered Kaneesha’s, my mysterious girlfriend I’ve talked about for this season and I convinced her to join us on the podcast since she grew up Mormon as well. And I think now would be a great time to hear [00:07:00] your queer in 60 Seconds, your Queer Mormon story so the audience can get to know how awesome you are as<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well, let’s see. I’m the oldest in my family and I grew up a lot in Utah, in Idaho. and I have really amazing parents. They are super supportive and have always been that way of any of my extracurriculars and my sports that I’ve always been a part of. My parents have always made it a priority to show up for their kids and what they’re doing and so just having that as a background was really great to know, and I know my parents always supported me, but then of course there’s just this aspect of unknown in my own mind that I don’t know what I am and I’m sitting here in church and I’m sitting at school or I’m engaging with my peers and just not feeling the same acceptance That kind of [00:08:00] you talked about with us in the car.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it’s not that anyone was doing anything rude or talking about anything queer because one, I wouldn’t have pieced that together. I mean we were talking Colette and I, in high school, there were just so many times where I had friends who were female and they were talking about the drama with their recent boyfriend or something and like it was just replaying in my head I would be such a better boyfriend and just laughing about that to myself and going home and just like yada yada, yada yada.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Apparently not everybody has felt that way. And feeling like that was the norm comment to have, you know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But fast forward, I went out to Virginia and got to play college soccer there. I’m a goalie and had a really unique experience there and being in that community and surrounded by just people from different backgrounds in college life and out on the east coast, you know, my first bigger [00:09:00] experience away from home. And I than being able to transfer out to Utah State and meeting in that middle ground out in Utah where it was close enough to home , but still far away and navigating that middle ground. And that’s where I met my, my ex-husband Riley. And we were able to date and be out in Logan together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I’m really grateful for the memories that I was able to have with my ex-husband. Traveling has always been a big part of my personality. And looking back, I think I was hoping to see somehow through my travels, the feeling or the image or just that picture that Colette painted of, wow, I feel like I fit in right here. , you know, or like, I feel like I’m comfortable right here and what that looked [00:10:00] like and not fully, not fully seeing that, but excited to hopefully see that and feel that and be around that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so traveled a lot through Europe and some through through some Asian countries. And it was just a really, really cool experience. And I’m grateful for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And we waited a couple of years into getting married before we thought, let’s have a child. And I always was nervous about that to begin with. Cuz my whole life I’ve really struggled with depression and anxiety and suicide ideations and lived through an attempted suicide and just getting to this mental awareness of these are things I’ve struggled with and I’m nervous about all the hormonal changes. I am terrified about having a child and having this get [00:11:00] worse because at the time I was not medicated and doing okay.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There was emotional and hard times throughout the marriage here and there, but overall he and I were, were good friends and we enjoyed being together, and so that kind of helped me coast by in my emotional areas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then to consider having this child and being afraid, really just being afraid of what would happen emotionally. and then balancing the expectation of sorts of, and the comments of when are you two gonna have a kid? Like it’s been a couple years, like, when is this happening? And me just being like, yeah, if it happens, it happens. And deciding ultimately, like, let’s move forward with this and let’s look at having a child [00:12:00] together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so fast forward, I was able to get pregnant. And Realizing through that pregnancy that I was queer and having that kind of confirm a lot of the experiences I had throughout high school. Brooks was born in May and in February I was able to go on a weekend trip with one of my really close friends at the time and we went and saw this performance in Vegas and got to have a lot of fun walking around, down the strip and all of that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then going back to our hotel room and just sitting there and I had a really bad headache, pregnancy, headaches, they’re the worst. And my friend offered to just massage my head for me. And so I laid my head on the bed and she started massaging my head and I kind of had this moment of like, oh, this. I think this is the feeling I [00:13:00] unknowingly have been waiting to feel in all of these locations I’ve ever traveled and been and seen and existed in, and being six months pregnant and with my best friend again, here we are in the classic queer intersect of best friends and having crushes on them. and then driving back this six hours or whatever back to Utah and just, oh, this is an epiphany I had that needs to go away really quickly because I have a son coming in May.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And alas, a lot of my fears were confirmed, you know, after giving birth to my son and from the very first moment having him put in my arms and that mental fog, that mental darkness in a lot of ways. Looking down and seeing [00:14:00] this adorable kid with the cutest dimple the chunkiest little legs in the world. And just knowing these are all the typical cues to my brain that would be like, oh, you’re so cute. But having no feelings attached to that and seeing, yeah, you have a really, you have a dimple. And it’s cute because dimples are cute. But in my heart and in my body, I had no excitement either. It, I could recognize them as cute and not feel anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that was the beginning in a lot of ways of my coming out journey without realizing that it was part of my coming out process and having this son and Going through those mental challenges of the postpartum and not having the resources and the at the time knowledge of what to do and where to go from there. Just knowing that my biggest fears were [00:15:00] really kind of confirmed that my mental health was dropping. And just having that mental state confirmed that, yeah, hormones are changing and so is your mental health because of it. And going through the first few months of his life and looking back, I have a big kind of blank out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And being able to have some friends who invited me to go out and go on walks, they could see I was struggling and they could see I wasn’t the human they knew before I had my son. And thankfully, two of them specifically really, really convinced and wanted me to call my OB and make sure that things were going okay because the ideation of suicide was just looming constantly, any little thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And [00:16:00] I was just like, all right, if I’m going to decide, or if my depression is going to win this, I need to have it win really soon before Brooks really connects that I’m his mom. Like just having this intrusive thought all the time of this is why Brooks needs a different mom. This is why I can’t sit here and connect with Brooks because if I do, it’s going to be even harder for me to be gone for him and not wanting that for my son.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then still having these friends throughout the postpartum of your life matters. You matter. I love you. This isn’t normal. Get help . And I was able to go through a lot of that postpartum treatment and It saved my life multiple times and I’m really grateful for the therapist that I was able to connect with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Again, [00:17:00] it can happen. Always keep looking for a therapist if you don’t feel like you connect with the one you have, cause there will be somebody. And I’m really grateful every day for the therapist I found during that time. And then being able to come out of the postpartum immediate black cloud world of not being able to see much light. And then having that moment in therapy where I was seeing this therapist who has saved my life. I love, I have all the trust in the world with this human and still having so much shame to flash back to February with her and be like this happened and I’ve been married five years. I have a son and help me. Help me. What do I do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Because that’s exactly how it felt. Just there’s all of a sudden that not pressure, but just that overwhelming sense within my body that [00:18:00] you need to get, you need to get to this again, like into that mental state of acknowledging this because it’s gonna be really important later,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And just having that feeling that it’s still needed to be talked about. And ultimately being able to confide in my therapist about that and being able to work with her through some of the, the things that came up and going through at different points in my marriage, couples counseling, and trying to be open with my, my spouse and my partner up to this point of where my head is mentally and my spirit and my heart and still figuring out how to communicate those things and figuring out how to, exactly like in that moment that you described in the car of like, you know, something is different and you’re happy and you feel this when you hear it, and then you go back into the world [00:19:00] that is your life and not feeling that again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And just the complete opposite of the feelings within myself and working through that and ultimately coming to this conclusion that, hey, I am queer and I’ve made it this far. My son knows me, he loves me. He, I am his mom. and if he wants to keep having a mom, I’m gonna have to make some changes because otherwise it, I, I really, I don’t know what would’ve happened. I don’t know where I would be. I know I wouldn’t have been in the car holding hands with Colette on our way to Elf to giggle about not ever having enough boyfriends.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And going through that process of divorce with my husband and it just really feeling crummy. Just all of those things that you’ve been taught your whole life through the church of we don’t have marriage issues and if we have marriage [00:20:00] issues, you talk about them and move on together equally yolked as one and life is great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that not happening for me and moving through that. And Being able to have that conversation with my husband that I, I needed a divorce and going through that process of finalizing the divorce, and then being this new human that has no idea how to even talk about the contentment that she’s felt even thinking about it and all of these things. I have a young son and now I’m on my own in a lot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Of course, knowing family’s there, but going through their own transitions at the time of this is what Kaneesha’s choosing? how do we move forward and love her? And that is something I do appreciate is because I, I do think my parents from the very beginning, that is kind of the approach [00:21:00] that they had in their heads of like, okay, this is happening. Kaneesha’s made this decision. We may not agree with it. I don’t know if they did at the time, I don’t know where they were at, but just, we need to figure out the way to love Kaneesha in these moments. And I appreciate that and I love my parents for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And getting to this point of now I’m on Called to Queer and having my girlfriend and their co-host and talking about all of these things that trigger a lot of shame and fear and unknowns in so many people and being able to talk about it and realizing that these topics I’m afraid to talk about are because of society. They’re because of a lot of stress, and it’s okay. This is a space to talk about it, and I’m in a place emotionally where I can and what’s holding me back? Nothing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Holy crap is so powerful. Just listening to you here, you know I’ve heard your [00:22:00] story multiple times. I know Kate’s heard aspects of your story, and these are very powerful shame triggers because we’re not supposed to talk about queerness. We’re not supposed to be queer. We’re not supposed to talk about stepping away from church for mental health. We’re not supposed to talk about suicidal ideation and depression and anxiety, but these are actually really common things. Like, I don’t know if you know stats. I just did a quick Google search and a quick stat that came up from the department of Health is postpartum occurs at about six and a half to 20% of women.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So up to one in five women who are pregnant dealing with postpartum. And we don’t talk about it. And talking about how many people are queer and we don’t talk about it. And the antidote to shame is talking about it and connection. And so I’m really proud of you for being willing to be vulnerable and be on here and talk about these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah, I agree. And so thank you for sharing your story. And [00:23:00] one thing that I don’t talk about very often, and I’ve never talked about it on here, and it’s only in very intimate relationships, is this fear I’ve had that I had mental health issues all growing up and I was convinced that I would pass this on to my offspring.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I, I have told people I’m not going to have kids cuz I’m so afraid of this. And knowing somewhere inside myself, I would have children, but they would not be mine and I would not birth them. And I still, that is still the case. I do not plan on birthing kids for, for exactly the fears that you had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that’s something I don’t hear people talk about. I don’t talk about it, right? Like, just being able to hear you express all of that is something new that we haven’t shared here. And is important I think for lots of afab people, lots of women, lots of wives, lots of [00:24:00] girlfriends, people going through this and, and thinking this and not having the chance to say it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So thank you for being brave and coming on here and telling your story, but also like opening up parts of me that I haven’t got to really talk about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Thank you for for saying that, Kate, because I, I definitely wanna go out and say like, these are completely valid and understandable and despite people thinking their own feelings about having children and when or if you should it is completely normal to not want children for those reasons and it is your decision.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I would never, like, I wouldn’t change, obviously the experiences I’ve had and the son that I have. And he is just the most beautiful, loving and accepting little human who loves all of the cuddles. And still knowing inside myself, there is no way in hell [00:25:00] I’m going to have a second son or a second daughter or another human. Like I cannot birth this. I, my body will not be able to take it and neither will my head.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so just knowing that you’re not alone in that, and thank you for sharing that cuz it is scary to ever admit something like that. And I just remember seeing my parents, or I can’t remember if it was my parents, but just having that, like, I don’t really know if I wanna have children because my brain is betraying me. And not being able to speak loudly enough about it. and not being strong enough or brave enough at the time to really hold my ground there. And knowing now that I am. Like this isn’t happening and I am a hundred percent okay with it. And anyone else who feels that is as well, you know, they can be and stand firm in that decision and know that that’s okay. And there will be plenty of children to love and see. And if you ever need a child [00:26:00] moment, come see my son. It’s great. He’s fantastic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> And he will talk your ear off and play all the things with you. He will correct all your pronunciation on all the dinosaur names. He’s such a cute human. but I, I’m glad that you do bring up the, I mean, Mormon culture is get married young and pop out as many kids as you can. And I think there is this shame in Mormon culture of like, I can’t do that. Like I know that’s not good for my health or I won’t be as a good parent to children if I have too many. But not being able to talk about that. Like, there’s shame sometimes in Mormon culture of not being able to get pregnant or only having one child. Like you’re not multiplying and replenishing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That’s You’re not even at replacement level, right? . It’s like, it’s so, the pressure, whether explicitly or not, is there. And so I appreciate you being willing to talk about the [00:27:00] reality of that pressure and realizing that it’s okay to not follow this prescribed path of having at least four kids and sacrificing your own health for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Yes. And knowing that you’re loved through all of this and that there will be people that will understand and those who don’t understand are not the individuals you need in your life. Or if they are then just not in your inner circle, and that’s okay. You know, having them on that, on the outside, being able to love them and seeing them, but knowing that this opinion of how you should be running your life is not theirs to make. And your life. is so incredibly important to so many people. And if they really love and believe that you should still be alive, that they should, you should still be here on this earth finding some level of acceptance that this [00:28:00] is what they are deciding. This is what Kaneesha is deciding, and what ways are we going to love Kaneesha through this, and continuing to love her, you know, and not being afraid.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I think what is really impressive to me about your story is that you had friends who, I know a lot of people Who rely on toxic positivity in order to help somebody deal with suicidal ideation. And hearing you say that your friend said, go get help, is really important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Maybe you can talk a little bit more about how they approached you and ways that were helpful and maybe some things that weren’t helpful. But it sounds like what they were doing was helpful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Sure. I think that’s a great, point to bring up. And I’m trying to think, I don’t feel like I had the experiences [00:29:00] of like toxic feelings towards, or like, just what you were describing of the supposed right thing. I just remember the moments of like, Kaneesha, let’s go out on this walk and I guess that’s the other aspect of the postpartum that I was really shamed, ashamed about because throughout this moment of having these thoughts telling me, if you’re going to follow through on your suicide ideation, it needs to happen as soon as possible. Because one more day with Brooks is one more day with Brooks and one more day of love from me to him that I can’t let him live with, you know. I don’t want to leave him in this sad place. And also being kind of in this head space of not caring that that’s where I’m at, but knowing that it’s there going through life expecting to continue to mom. But I wanted to be away from him a lot. I [00:30:00] really, really did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And postpartum can go in so many directions. The fear of them being with anybody, the fear of anything really like health-wise, person wise, the world, everything. Just being so afraid and keeping them so close to you. And then having the, the polar opposite where it’s like, I cannot spend another second with this child and I need to leave. And so leaving my son with my husband a lot and just leaving the house and having these friends every now and again where I’d just be like, Hey, I really need, I need help. Like, can you take this child from me? to help my brain get back to a place where I can be with him. And them being like, okay, yeah, you can bring him over. Let’s go on a walk. And them being able to push the stroller. and they push the stroller. And even that little pressure of, I’m going on a walk with somebody and I love being outside. I can go on a walk. But doing that with my son in a stroller all of a sudden feels [00:31:00] way harder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And them being able to take that little weight off of me, but being there for me and seeing me, and then asking those questions like, Kaneesha, like, what’s going on? Are you okay? What’s, what’s happening? You know, like, we, we love you and I see you, but can you talk to us? And being able to then disclose to them those same feelings of fear of being in his life another day and knowing you love this human so so much, knowing that you were never intending to become pregnant. That I had all of these feelings in the past and all of these fears being confirmed by having my son and really feeling defeated. Just the things I foresaw, the things I told people I [00:32:00] knew were gonna happen or I really had strong feelings about they are happening and figuring out is this the time I’m gonna succumb to them? These, the sadness, this weight, or is this now That moment of seeing where I’m at and going from there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And ultimately trusting my friends that hey, Kaneesha it’s not normal to want to disappear from your child’s life, emotionally because you just can’t do this. And that you have these two or three months of his life already that you barely remember that you are able to look back on his day of birth with one video of him kind of moving his mouth as he’s first waking up in the morning and his dimple flashing. And me still seeing that and knowing, wow, that’s really cute. Dimples are adorable and have not having the same connection of like, this is my son with a dimple who I’m holding and I love.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[00:33:00] And again, the shame of then telling people after having told them before having a child that this could happen. Now I’m in the mental space that I was afraid I would be in. And then still being able to somehow put trust in these people who are telling me that they love me and like these aren’t normal and that you need help. And not being rude about it in the sense of like, I told all of you that this was going to happen, like I was so convinced that this would happen and I am not wrong , and you suck and I am in this awful place and now you’re wanting me to get help.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

this is all help I would never have been needing to ask if I had just been in an environment that allowed us to have those feelings, Kate, of I’m afraid to pass these mental, just struggles and depression to my son, or they’re going to severely inhibit my ability to be a mom to this child.[00:34:00]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then ultimately just having these friends in places where they would just bring me dinners, they would be kind, they let me just sit in their home and they would play with my son. And they didn’t seem to have that pressure of like, Hey, Kaneesha, like you can’t be here with your son. Being able to know that now this child is part of who you are and allowing space for both of you to be there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then also have the support of them holding him. You know, being able to just have that little weight taken off of my arms literally and figuratively. And then lovingly, Demonstrate the connection emotionally that you can have with a child, that you can have in being able to move forward with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And to also acknowledge that Kaneesha, it’s okay that you’re not feeling this connection to him, but we also don’t want you to die. So could you, could we, could we work on this? Like, can we, [00:35:00] can we agree that this is not where we want your life to go? And ultimately, after one of those walks coming with me into, Brooks’s nursery upstairs, sitting with me, holding my hand as I’m crying that my OB told me to call this certain, outpatient treatment slash therapy office and I mean, That’s a different story. The type of support that OBGYNs and, and the health industry, um, offers to these postpartum moms.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Like I, that’s a whole different story for a different time. But luckily being given this resource to then call and my friends holding my hand and saying, this is what needs to happen. And like, we’ll babysit Brooks. Like if you need to go to these groups, like, we agree, yes, you need to go and yes, we can watch Brooks while you go. You know, or taking me to lunch after and being able to feed me and love me and, support through caring for Brooks in the little ways that they [00:36:00] could.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Which you needed that support. When you talk about this treatment you went into, it was an intensive outpatient. So if people don’t know, it’s not just like one. Therapy one-on-one a week. Kaneesha was in therapy in groups and individual for a few hours a day, Monday through Friday. I don’t know how many hours a week it was. And I know<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> It was three hours every day with often two or three times a week of individual sessions, depending on where my mental health was at the time. And mine was very bad. It was. It was. It was not in a good space at all. And having multiple sessions, yeah, it was a part-time job. I was talking about postpartum and being around these postpartum moms every day for three and a half, four hours, sometimes sitting with their children in group.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> And I think I just wanna emphasize how intense that was and how it was needed. Because I know there may be moms that are listening and feeling like, oh, but. [00:37:00] That’s too much. Like I’m taking up too much space. Like I just need to focus on being a mom and I can’t take a part-time job for my mental health. Like I, I just need to survive. And I just wanna emphasize like there are these resources and you deserve to get the help you need, even if it is 20 hours a week of therapy so that you can keep surviving and getting through this really, really hard time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> A hundred percent. Yeah, exactly. And your lives are, just so incredibly valuable and so incredibly worth that time, like you’re saying, and whether or not you see it every day, in every moment that you deserve this type of time and attention and love. But just, you know, that one pinky toe forward if that’s all it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And my therapist would say like, it was a solid [00:38:00] month of me going to group every single day before I opened my mouth. And Colette can attest to this. I usually don’t have a hard time talking. I can talk a while, um, and being in a group of like 10 other women and not saying a word. nothing, just like tearing up when I had the feelings and going home, you know, and trying to get the little pieces that I can.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But in that same time, being surrounded by love and other women who are at a different stage in their postpartum journey. Seeing people who are graduating from this outpatient treatment and seeing the light that is there again. And me just sitting there in this dark, dark, dark cloud in this group room and saying, yeah right. Like, I cannot get to that point, but I’m so glad you’re there. And then not realizing the type of influence that had on me mentally where it was like, [00:39:00] oh, actually okay, I can get through this. Like, oh, here’s another day I made it to another group. Things will be okay. and that support and being able to see that in that setting is a huge part of being where I’m at now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I wouldn’t have been able to do that without seeing other women going through the same types of darkness in different forms and then also seeing them having moved through that. And I wouldn’t have been in an environment that would’ve been able to tell me that or show me that if I hadn’t, like what you said, had this part-time job of keeping myself alive because it really was a part-time job. I was there over 20 hours a week. And finding that worth that you have in yourself, or at least trusting that others’ belief that you have worth is enough and you’ll get there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah. I think it’s [00:40:00] important to note that you’ve said that your friend said that this wasn’t normal. And I think that we need to like pay attention to that phrasing because, it might not be as common. And I think it’s important for people to know, like if you’re going through this, that you do need to seek out support and you need to feel validated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And if gets you that support, that’s great. But it’s not that it’s not normal, it’s that some people need extra support and during this period, and that extra support is actually just an extension of accessibility. This is an extension of making a society that has room for helping people, but also getting the help you need and, and getting to therapy three hours every day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Because it is, it’s not just that the time is a job, the [00:41:00] emotional work is a job, and the stuff that comes out of that, the things that you learn from that, go on to help other people. Just like being here helps other people, so that, that is another job. It is doing work, it’s doing emotional labor, and we don’t, we have a really hard time in society thinking about care work as an actual work, but it is, and this is something that we need to do. We need to take care of ourselves and we need to take care of one another. We need to check in and, and see how new moms are doing those sorts of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> A hundred percent and I appreciate that call out on using the word normal because it is perpetuating the same shame circle by using that word and it’s, your experience is unique. And even just being able to say to [00:42:00] somebody, we love you. We’ve noticed these changes in you, and we just need to check in to see if you’re okay. And because like what Colette was bringing up, that statistic of pretty much like one in five women will go through some form of postpartum. That’s a high statistic. You could be anywhere and you could be surrounded by hundreds of women who have experienced this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And whatever experience you have is yours and it isn’t normal or un-normal. It isn’t good or bad. It is your experience and we love you. And if you’re experiencing these thoughts or these feelings, this is just naturally the care that you need. You know, it’s just one thing leads to another and it’s okay that you’re leading down this path of I need to be in therapy 20 hours a week in order to get me through this. That is your experience, and it’s, and [00:43:00] it’s needed and you’re not alone. There are so many women who also need that, and so thank you for, for bringing out that because it really did just slip. It, it really is just like, yeah, my friends were just like, Kaneesha, this isn’t normal. Like you shouldn’t be having these thoughts of wanting to end your life before your son knows who you are and Yeah, totally. That was a great, that mind opener for me there too,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> So you’re, you’re talking about this and I just can’t imagine a couple months before you are having a child, you’re preparing yourself almost for postpartum. You’re preparing yourself through all of the hormones that you’re feeling and everything, and then simultaneously you’re dealing with a queer awakening with these same friends, I imagine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So you have, I imagine that, what [00:44:00] did they, my question is maybe an insensitive one, but did they stick around like these friends that were there for, for your postpartum stuff? Perhaps one of them is one that you fall in love with, and then also can they stick around for the, the queer portion too?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Let’s see. Yeah, that is a, yep. It was definitely an awakening of epic proportion, and life changing proportion and, um hmm. , it’s hard to be able to answer that question. Only in the sense that once my divorce took place, my home was being sold, this area that I had established these connections and, and these friendships in, I was no longer around them every day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then also going through the slow deconstruction period of the religion itself that my friend group very much was a [00:45:00] part of the same LDS background, the same things. And I know that any of my friends, I could text them to this day and be like, Hey, I love you. How are you doing? I’m thinking about you. And I know that they may or may not answer, but like, do I feel comfortable being able to extend, like, Hey, I love you, where are you? Or wanna do something like, I’m still able to do that. But having that distance, living-wise definitely affected some of the friendships, like being able to be around them and see them and then also knowing that their lives are kind of going in just a different little direction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We may have some overlap here, but the main overlap is that we knew you and we know the you that was in church. We know the you of feeling like that was a persona in a lot of ways. Like that’s the Kaneesha they knew. And also [00:46:00] acknowledging it’s a space that I’m not allowing or wanting myself to be in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so having the space to know I love you and I would not be here without them. I really, really wouldn’t. And I’m continually grateful for those friendships that I had when I had them. And I know that they’re important to me now still. And again, I would talk to them in a heartbeat any day. And our paths just don’t overlap as much anymore. And that’s okay. And other friends come, and other friends go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

My the, the crush I discovered in February before having my son, we aren’t as close anymore and that’s okay too. And though it’s been really hard, you know, at different times, I know that they were the people I needed in my life at the time that they were. [00:47:00] and I’m not any less than, I’m not less than period for not having these friendships that have now followed me into every aspect of my queer life now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But still really knowing and acknowledging that they were the humans I needed then. And I love that concept anyways, of the people and the communities and the platforms that I’m exposed to now. I never would’ve had. These are all experiences that are new too. And now I, they’re huge parts of me and parts I’m not gonna let go of.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

but, the people will come and go and the value is there. Your worth is there. And being able to let that strength carry you through friendships because yeah, it’s, it could be very easy to look back and be like, yeah, I never do anything with these friends anymore. I’m just not a [00:48:00] human they want to hang out with anymore. You know? And that’s not true. It’s not true. It’s intrusive thoughts that are caused by my own stress and triggers from my own mental health seeing that for what it is. I know my friends love me and I love them, and again, I’m really glad that they are part of my lives and were in that really dark time, really, really hard time of my postpartum. So I don’t know if that answered your question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah, I think it’s very commendable that you can hold space for these friendships even if they aren’t as prevalent as they once were. There are a lot of people that once they come out or they’re about to come out, one of the questions or fears that they have is that the, they’re gonna lose everybody around them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I mean, this is a story where these people were literally crucial [00:49:00] to you staying alive. And, to lose them would be scary. But I think it’s important to recognize, it’s okay to, to reflect on your, those friendships and let them evolve into whatever they need to evolve into, including, you know, maybe just being a text every once in a while.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I just, I asked that question because I think that it’s very clear that they were so important to you. And that doesn’t mean that now that they aren’t somebody you talk to, they aren’t people you talk to every day, doesn’t diminish the fact that they were very impactful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> A hundred percent. I love that. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Can, can we also maybe talk, I, I’m sensing a bit of a theme here just about shame cuz Kaneesha and I were talking about shame before she got on, being really nervous to talk about some of these issues. Can we talk about how the shame showed up in starting to deal with your sexuality and deconstructing religion and the path you thought [00:50:00] you had versus the thought you, the life you are living. Thoughts around shame as you’re coming out to people or just any thoughts about that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Yes. So many thoughts. A lot of thoughts just went through my head. Let’s see if I can pull them into understandable sentences. But yeah, that shame. It is just the worst sometimes, man. Like it is just the biggest imposter syndrome ever, shame.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And, um, One, kind of reflecting back just on some of the anger and frustrations I had that I know many queer individuals have of, I’ve never been able to explore this side of me. I haven’t been told it’s an option and I haven’t seen anything demonstrated. Maybe it isn’t who I am, but I had no resources to even figure that out other than this is the way and this is the light.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

 And um, yeah, just [00:51:00] seeing that anger for what it is. Something that really I didn’t have a say in. I, I, like I didn’t at the time. But just because I didn’t have a say in it then doesn’t mean I don’t have a say in it now. And it doesn’t mean that the dialogue that follows is going to be the same now as it was then.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

 But the shame coming out to my therapist even. Her name is Lail, she’s fantastic, love Lail. And just knowing how much she loves me, how much of my life and being alive is attributed to the care and the love that she gave me and is there for me and still being terrified to be like, Hey, back in February when I was pregnant, I had this crush and I realized that I’m probably gay and now that I’m alive, I need to figure out if I can stay married. Can you help me figure this out? Because now exactly I have this eternal marriage that is this looming [00:52:00] ish cloud, and not necessarily a depressing one, but just a suffocating one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There’s this space where, okay, I’m beginning to create safety and talking about these feelings with my therapist and then going out of that therapeutic setting into my home and it being a completely different feeling for so many reasons. It’s the home of our gospel. It’s the home of this marriage that is eternal. And we have this son together who is our family unit. We’re a family unit altogether and yeah, just not wanting my needs to be the things that end this picture of eternal and forever.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And if I leave this marriage, will, I like the constant question of will I be with my family? Like, am I gonna see them again? Because [00:53:00] I love my family. Like I, I really do. I love my siblings, I love my parents and extended family. I’ve always just really loved family and that the family people were going to see moving forward was going to be very different. And also the context of religion and the gospel that has been my entire life up to this point, is changing. And knowing that that’s still an integral part of my family and their lives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And having the suicide ideation throughout high school and junior high and already kind of feeling like the lame one in the family. like, wow, Kaneesha struggling with it in high school. This is going on here. And now, okay, she’s married, she made this decision to get pregnant, and now she’s making the decision to leave all of this? Like, that makes no [00:54:00] sense. Why would you do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And feeling that need to justify everything and like, no, no, like it really is justifiable because if you look at the fact that, and having these reasons in my head of, Hey guys, this is why you, I did the right thing. And struggling to have that validation and need, wanting to hear that, but also knowing they aren’t in a space yet, and maybe they never will be to be able to tell you these things. Like they also aren’t in an environment themselves that is encouraging them or allowing them to speak in a way that may be more affirming to you. And also knowing that there’s a lot of shame, fear, and unknowns for these people that are still in the gospel who are there and that this is their lives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And seeing that, Hey, K. [00:55:00] Like, yeah, it’s totally normal, don’t have kids. Like really? It would be so strange to hear that in a church setting. And I applaud anybody who is able to stay in those environments and around this, this gospel that teaches the exact opposite in many, many ways.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so finally kind of having this moment of like, No one around me is going to be able to give me the validation that I need, like myself. And realizing that that relationship with yourself is ultimately the one that’s going to keep you alive. And if you’re not in tune with you and the things that you’re going through or the needs that you have, or you’re not listening to that voice in your head that says, no way, do not have children, this is going to be bad for you. Um, Listening to that, because your validation, my validation for my decisions and everyone’s moving [00:56:00] forward is the validation that you deserve. And your validation is my own validation. Is that validation I need to hear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And allowing shame to be more of a neighbor instead of a cloud. And like, definitely like I, I feel like I had this conversation in a religious setting at one point, but just like, it doesn’t have to be this thing that lives with you. They do not need to move into your basement. The shame does not need to live there. You do not need to feed it. Like you don’t have to do anything. And that’s, that’s perfectly fine. Your house can be your sanctuary. Will that shame come over sometimes? Or may you even go into this house of shame because in order to move through it, you need to feel it? Yeah, probably. Yep. I visit shame a lot, and um, and I’m glad that that shame and that relationship I have with shame is evolving. [00:57:00] It’s not perfect. The shame is still there. The guilt I feel is still there at times. But having that relationship in just knowing it is not this big, scary monster that I have to allow to be with me. It will force its way in. Like shame, we all know will f just attack you , but also I can shut the door and now my room is safe, you know, or whatever that might look like. But, um, ultimately that shame is ours to manipulate in a way that allows us to go through our lives, feel those feelings of shame when we’re in safe spaces, when we’re in a mental head space where we can deal with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And knowing that, I’m feeling a lot of shame around knowing I’m never going to have a birth, another child. And yet, okay. I can’t think about that right [00:58:00] now. I’m really sad and I know that if I allow this shame into my personal house of my soul, I’m only gonna hurt myself more. But also acknowledging that you’re going to need to, I’m gonna need to feel these feelings and let them out in a Safeway and moving from there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so, I don’t know if that answered the question either, but just being able to reframe the, the shame that comes up. And everyone experiences shame. It’s normal. You can feel shame over choosing a different sandwich at the grocery store than your friend and be like, why didn’t I get a Turkey sandwich with cheese? Like, maybe that’s the better one. Maybe I need to feel bad about this. And it just like little things every day and being able to reframe that with ourselves because it really will be, it’s been one of the hardest, but also [00:59:00] just comforting, calming feelings at the same time of knowing it is not this best friend that’s living with you and sleeping with you, and you can just be like, no, go home and I’ll see you later. But<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> No, I think that’s really good. I, I’d like to explore, if that’s okay, a little bit more of how you dealt with the shame in talking to your ex-husband about I’m gay and I think we need a divorce. Like that I think will resonate with a lot of people that listen, that idea of, but like that means it’s my fault I’m wrong, I’m destroying an eternal family. I’m sinning. Like, how did you finally. decide, okay, I, I need to face this. I need to have this conversation and I need to do this that’s for me, even if it maybe hurts someone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Yeah, a hundred percent. And I, again, I can’t, I can’t speak for my ex-husband. I [01:00:00] can’t speak for the experiences he’s had and been through in the last couple of years since our divorce, but having again, like I, I guess that feeling of flashing back to when I was going through that intensive outpatient program, seeing these people who were further along in their healing process, getting to this point of light and me wanting to be on that side too, or at least moving towards that and spending the time dissecting what that looks like with my therapist and, and just allowing that vision or the little aspects of joy that I had or like wanted to attain or get closer to, and realizing where I was at and wasn’t ever going to be that for me. [01:01:00] It wasn’t. I would be able, of course, you can find joy in any decision. And I am definitely not going to say that this is the decision for everyone moving forward. Everyone I trust you and you know you best.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But just seeing that this pro cons list that came up so often in my therapy sessions, whether we wrote them down physically or just kind of joked about it back and forth. But really going through that with my husband. I believe he’s told me once that he kind of figured, or like he kind of had like this idea or something, and it wasn’t like a surprise when I told him that, Hey, like I’m attracted to women and being able to, and I told him that before the main beginnings of the divorce process. And that was a part of the couple’s therapy that we had here and there throughout my postpartum, seeing my therapist there, and counselor, on our own. And having that kind of be the collective [01:02:00] experience and establishing the things most important to me and knowing that what’s important to me is important enough. And I say important is enough because whatever fills in the blank after that is anyone’s own interpretation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You know, like, I don’t know what that looks like for everyone, but for me it was, it’s enough that I want to be around my son being authentically me. It’s okay and it’s enough for me to sit here in my current marriage and think I really, really love and appreciate this man in my life. I love the travels, I love the memories we’ve created. There’s been really hard times we’ve gotten through some of them. And also knowing that who I am and [01:03:00] who I’ve been my whole life and covering piece by piece at different times, that is enough. That’s enough to be you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so being able to be in this session where I’m looking at my therapist and I’m feeling just drained by the thought of creating this mental pros and cons list of if I stay with my husband or if I am staying in the church. And then like, What’s the pros of this? What’s the cons of this? And okay, if I stay in this marriage, I know I’m going to be accepting sadness in X, y, z areas of my life. And not wanting that. And just being in that mental space of, okay, Kaneesha, this feels like a moment of me saying to people, I don’t want to birth a child. And then ultimately birthing a child. And then in another sense being like, okay, Kaneesha, you can stay [01:04:00] in this marriage and you’re accepting in a lot of ways these difficulties or this level of yourself that I don’t want to live with. I don’t want to live with that feeling of what what is it like to truly enjoy intimacy with a partner? Like for someone like me who loves connection, who loves humans and people, the idea of spending forever with somebody where I fall asleep at night just like I don’t, I’m not feeling this. Like I can appreciate love and enjoy all of these memories I’ve made with him and appreciate the individual he is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I am also acknowledging I’m will be sad in a lot of ways and wishing at the same time. And that’s where the shame comes back that I wasn’t feeling [01:05:00] any of those feelings. Going through a divorce is not easy. Going through parenting’s plans is not easy, but knowing that ultimately those struggles and those like harder things are the ones I want to deal with because I want intimacy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I love and crave this intimacy. I deserve intimacy with a partner and my son deserves to see his mom living in a way that I would want my son to live. I would want them to find these people who bring out the best in him, you know, who just let him flourish and live and love. And knowing that that is completely in my grasp for myself, and I can stand strong to this desire of and ultimately life of going through the divorce, going through these parenting [01:06:00] changes and seeing myself for where I’m at and knowing, feeling loved and loving is like one of the most beautiful feelings. And being, and feeling loved is great. And sitting in the car with Colette driving, like, yeah, I just looking over at her and being like, I don’t have any like huge epiphany going on right now, but just sitting in this space of like, I don’t feel like I need to ask a question. I’m not worried about if she’s sitting there thinking anything. We’ve already established this level of like, Hey, if you’re feeling something, we can talk about it. And going from there and loving each other through it and feeling like I’m able to be intimate with her, moving through my trials. because going through the harder things of life is hard enough to then not feel intimately connected on an emotional or a physical level with your partner.[01:07:00]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And knowing I wasn’t feeling that and I wasn’t going to receive that to the fullest in the relationship I was then. And ultimately, my happiness matters. And my son matters. And me being alive in my son’s life is important. My son seeing me exemplify this authentic life of, even if the decision to choose you Brooks, or the decision I’m making to choose myself it, there are gonna be some hard things that come from it. That’s okay. And it’s worth it. You can feel joy, you can do this and it’s not going to be perfect. It’s not. The grass is not perfectly green on any side and being able to be yourself. And if I’m not doing that, how can I expect my son to decipher between actions and [01:08:00] feelings and moving, like, being able to talk about all these things if I’m not doing that myself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And wanting him to see the joy that I saw in these women going through postpartum, wanting to be this mother that helps him see that hard things happen. You can move through them and you can feel love, you can feel intimacy. You can feel connection, and you can do this. And that the decisions that you want to do for yourself are, it’s simply enough because you are enough and you are loved, and you get to make these decisions for you, and I support you and I want you to feel joy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ultimately, going through that divorce process was one of the hardest things I’ve had to go through. Like I’ve had some hard things in my life and navigating the shame of canceling our sealing you know, and the emotions that come up with that. Seeing an ex-spouse [01:09:00] remarry and start a family with their person and being so grateful that they found that because I myself was kind of relying on that, the comments of my therapist or these people who were living authentically themselves and seeing Kaneesha, I can do that. I can get here and hoping that that is the same case for your ex-husband, my spouse, without knowing it for myself, like I’m delving into this land of going through a divorce and canceling a sealing in hopes that I’m able to find this intimate connection with somebody that I know I don’t have with this, cis white man, and, hoping that I’m not as crazy as I’m telling myself I am and that he will be able to do the same and that we will all be able to move through these things. And [01:10:00] having trust in that sense of everyone is going to be in the place that they are. And that’s enough. And you’re going to cross paths with so many people. And like Kate said, some of them may still be here, some of them may not. And your value isn’t, doesn’t change based on who is in your life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And ultimately, my ex-husband looks really happy and I am so happy for the stepmom Brooks has the mom that he has and for the chance that he gets to be in this upcoming year of being a big brother and being part of the life that my ex-husband has created in the sense of I, we have a son together and we love him and I love that you, my ex-partner are finding these areas of joy and connection. Cuz I know he felt them with me in a lot of ways and that’s, but now we both are. And it was [01:11:00] hard. And it is hard. And knowing that that’s okay,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> I love that. Thank you so much for sharing, Kaneisha. One thing that I think might be helpful to also talk about if you’re okay, is also, after you and your ex-husband divorce, you start dating, you find someone, things are going okay, and then you get this bombshell dropped on you of Brooks being diagnosed with cancer. Can we talk a little bit about that and maybe some of the parenting guilt and shame that comes up with chronic illness and trying to just keep your head above water, keeping a child alive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Yeah, and then simultaneously fighting that shame and dialogue in my head of if only I had stayed in the church, if only I had stayed married, this wouldn’t be happening<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah. Just that narrative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> But ultimately knowing that it is a white blood cell that went rogue, [01:12:00] like it is literally scientifically broken down to that. His leuikemia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> But no, I, I appreciate you bringing that up because I think there is the, I know I’ve dealt with that narrative too, of when I’ve stepped away the church of, oh, if I was still, this is God punishing me. That’s that narrative of, because I’m doing the wrong thing, quote unquote, God is punishing me. And so yeah, I think that’s so real of we have this narrative in the church of if you have a trial, God is testing you, or if you’ve stepped away from the church, it’s because he’s punishing you, and ho dealing with that on top of, okay, my three year old has leukemia and I’ve learned a lot from you as far as childhoods, cancer, statistics that I pulled up, the American Childhood Cancer Association. Every three minutes somewhere in the world of family hears the devastating words that their child’s been diagnosed with cancer. Like, how do we not talk about this more?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Yes. [01:13:00] And I appreciate you bringing that up because it really did feel like a bombshell, ,um, navigating this post divorce life and living and, stepping in at that time to a queer relationship around those same times. And, on the one year anniversary of my finalized divorce, finding out, the next day our son has leukemia and that we’re gonna be in the hospital until we get this figured out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And man cancer. It really, really sucks and my heart goes out to everybody cuz every, there’s so many people whose lives have been impacted by cancer. I’m really grateful that Brooks is where he is at now. I wanna preface this before the whole story, but like Brooks is doing great. he’s been about a year through his treatments. We have about another year left of treatments, but he is considered in the maintenance [01:14:00] portion of this treatment and he’s thriving in a lot of really amazing ways. And so no need to stress about that throughout this bombshell beginning.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But, it was so so hard. Oh goodness. And the weeks and like about the month leading up to that diagnosis, Reflecting back and seeing these moments of just sheer exhaustion in Brooks, just mom, I, let’s just, let’s just cuddle. And before that, being this kid who would be outside every second of every day and didn’t matter if it was a hundred degrees, it didn’t matter if it was 40 degrees. Like he was just excited and that same spirit and Adorableness being there and the energy, just not his ability to act on those just childhood loves and desires, just wasn’t there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And going into that feeling really of somehow I’ve [01:15:00] caused this, and I know this is probably, well, I guess I don’t know, but I’m going to assume that a lot of parents with children of cancer or families of cancer, looking back and wondering if there’s anything I could have done differently. I really do feel like that is probably just part of the experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And having to battle through that internal dialogue of I am the reason my son is where he’s at, and all of this that I’ve been striving to be where I am living joyfully in my life. My son is able to see this, and now I’ve been alive for this, and what if my son passes away from this? Like, what in the heck? That’s a really ironic, lame way to go out. , you know, getting to this point of joy and then my son being diagnosed with leukemia and really having to put that into action. Those beliefs that, okay, here we are. Another really, [01:16:00] really hard thing is coming up and there are going to be moments where I can experience joy if I let myself and if I don’t just let this shame monster live in my room, sleep on my same pillow, so to speak, and like let that that feeling and that connection and relationship with shame override my love for my son that I know I have now that I didn’t in the past, but I know I have here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I also know that I am living the most authentic version of myself up to this point. And this is not the cause of where my son is now. And in an even more hands-on baptism by fire way of, Hey bud, we can feel really happy connected to the many stands and all of the tubes and you can be in your hospital [01:17:00] bed. We can lift the head part up as high as we can and it’s a slide. and having this adorable three-year-old just pale as can be, as bruised as can be sitting at on the top of this incline bed and saying wee as he slides down the sheets, you know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that being just like talk about a gut punch to a mom. Like I’m sitting here celebrating and finding joy to the best I can in my son creating a slide out of a hospital bed. And that it is not the joy I thought we you to be experiencing right now. but it is still joy. And he is still lighter right now because of this fact that we created a really cool slide in this awful hospital room. And creating joyful moments in the ways that we could while going through [01:18:00] this incredibly difficult diagnosis and life change. Where exactly, now I’m navigating this queerness and unknown. And just the internal hope that this was the right decision for me, and I know it is. Having the shame come up regarding that. Dealing with that on my own, not having it affect my son in the sense that I can’t be present with him in this moment and enjoy this, this hospital bed slide. I have to put that on the back burner. That, that like, this is the moment of joy that I’m going to focus on with my son. And he is going to know I am right there with him, stoked on life that he can go inch by inch, worm down this sheet, covered bed , and, make it as fun as possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Navigating our own sadnesses and fears and unknown while highlighting that these unknowns and these scary needles and all of these [01:19:00] scary people look lifting up your shirt. Just, creating a normal, a normality in this somehow. And in a completely new and different way, demonstrating and exemplifying to my son that there is joy in this life. There is connection, there’s intimacy, there are fantastic nurses that you can just giggle with and they can create little toy trains with you and play. And we’re gonna move through this in the ways that we can. And that he is so incredibly important to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And in a lot of ways I’m grateful that I was able to, um, I reflect back, I guess, and realize that if I did not ultimately move forward with that process of I’m going to have a child with my ex-husband. And going through the extreme darkness and tunnels of postpartum.[01:20:00] That I wouldn’t be out of the closet most likely. I would be still a member of the church. I would still be hearing these messages that would contradict the feelings and hopes that I wanted for my life and for my son. And realizing that that was kind of like, I believe the word is catalyst, but like that point where my life extremely changed and I went through some really hard things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But now I am here on the other side as a queer individual in a really happy queer relationship, with my son going through leukemia treatments and navigating that in any normal relationship, you know. and just being grateful for the fact that I’m here, that I’m alive, that my son is alive, that we’re moving through this together and I don’t know what the future will be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I’m grateful for his health that he has now. And trying to get through that and knowing my decisions to live the authentic life that I am [01:21:00] influences people in the sense that all of our lives are intertwined. But this is not causation. That my decisions, that my life, my happiness, my joy is my own and it is still our own to claim for ourselves. It’s right there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And yeah, cancer, it just sucks. so many feelings come up. And I don’t know how to verbalize them all either, but that it’s okay. It’s okay too that, I guess I don’t know how to verbalize it. There’s that overwhelming pressure of being perfect in a lot of ways, knowing exactly then that this is, I need to be so confident in any decision I make.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But knowing that everyone’s joy is their own to claim and their own journeys with shame and guilt and all of these emotions that are hard are their own. And if they’re my own to claim trusting that it’s their own to claim too. And if I’m living as authentically me and as [01:22:00] openly as I can through this really difficult thing, going through cancer treatments with my son and seeing the struggles that he goes through, joy is there for him to claim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It’s, he is stoked to slide down that bed. He is stoked to sit in there, the little wash basins pretending it’s a train. And not diminishing that the fact that we’re in a hospital and he’s having fun here instead of at a park. You know, like just because he is not at park enjoying these things does not mean that he isn’t enjoying where he’s at right now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I don’t have to sit here and compare the fact that there are some mothers out there who are enjoying a park outside and me wishing that we were there too. But that wish and that desire is still with us where we’re at, and we can create it where we’re at. And, moving forward with that in mind, with Brooks, you know, and moving forward as joyfully as we can and [01:23:00] allowing ourselves to feel the emotions that come up as they do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> thank you. I really, really appreciate all of that. We’re all about queer joy and I think it can be easy to forget that when you’re going through really hard things. And I’ve really appreciated watching you create these joy moments for Brooks. And I think it’s also important to highlight that one thing I’ve been learning while being with you is parenting is hard. And you know, you only have Brooks halftime, but holy crap, he is a four and a half year old and he has all the questions all the time and doesn’t have a sibling to play with. And so he wants to play and have that attention. And it is difficult. And I know there’s parenting shame that comes up there of, oh, I should be doing more for my son, I should be more attentive. There should be less screen time there should, we should be creating these memories together. And I shouldn’t be annoyed when he asks yet another question that I don’t know the answer to. [01:24:00] And I, I, I just wanna point that out to normalize some of the shame too. And let’s, let’s talk about how being a parent isn’t joyful all the time. being a parent is hard and we can talk about that fact. And you can still love your son with everything in you and still be counting down the seconds to bedtime.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> I mean a hundred percent. I, I can’t, uh, support that comment more. It’s so so true. And allowing those dual thoughts. I know there’s probably a therapeutic term that these two things can exist in the same place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> the dialectics?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Thank you. Yep. I knew that you would come through for me and Just being able to separate those two and know that Yes. Bedtime cannot come sooner. And yes, he’s adorable and inquisitive and curious, and just a really smart little kid who has so many questions. [01:25:00] And I don’t have to be intimidated by the fact that I don’t know all the answers and I can just continue to not have the answers for everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that there’s a lot of beauty in not having the answers when after being in this high pressure demand religion, of feeling like there is just one right answer. And knowing that I had my own experiences with that and how it’s impacted me, and how now there is no seemingly right answer is just what’s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And letting my son sit in those areas too, and creating aspects of like, mom’s answer is not necessarily gonna be your answer in this situation. And just because my answer is different does not mean that this is a big deal for us. Like we can move through this and you can have your own feelings and you get to decide the right answers for yourself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And holding that, that unknown space of unknown for yourself while helping your child, my child,[01:26:00] sit in those areas of, discomfort too, because there’s a lot of comfort in having answers. We all appreciate an answer that just satisfies all of our curiosities, our fears, whatever puts all those aside. We all want that in a lot of ways. But there is security and discomfort as well. And that just because I’m feeling uncomfortable in this moment, not knowing this answer, that alone doesn’t need to be as scary as I’m letting that feel in my heart. Like I can sit in this discomfort and know my decision moving forward is my own.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

 And just knowing that my answer is the right one because I know me best or I am getting there as well as I can, and knowing that I have full control over changing that decision and that me changing my decision is not me being less [01:27:00] knowledgeable or like, whatever, that like emotion is that I can’t figure out how to word like that discomfort and ability to change your decision is freeing. and you get to experience the areas of life according to yourself and being the master of yourself and being able to decide based on your own conclusions, based on information you’re given, and knowing there isn’t this answer that needs to align with what my thought process is. I don’t have to second guess this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

 Yeah, and letting my son sit in those moments himself. And then ultimately deciding what’s best for him. can I help you figure it out? Like, can we help use your own reasoning and your own brain for yourself, because you are going to be the decider for you. And that’s what I want it to become, while also teaching and emulating [01:28:00] integrity and honesty and authenticity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And we can find connection, we can find community, we can find joy. , we can move through and process difficult emotions in situations in life. And love is love and connection is connection. And I am who I am. And what I am is different each day. And that’s okay too. And finding peace in the evolution that I’m gonna feel feelings all the time. And I am loved and I am living authentically. And I’m hoping in that same respect, that moving forward in that way will be some example that I searched for and relied on through postpartum and through coming out as queer, that there are these people living themselves and their lives and their decisions with so much [01:29:00] joy. And I am too, and other people can as well. All of this is in our control and or at least there is aspects of control in the unknowns and through the hard times. Cuz yeah, I’m definitely in a land of unknowns right now as far as some areas of my life go. But I love, I love Colette and I love the relationship that we’re creating and that Brooks gets to see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> That just gave me queer joy with you saying publicly that you love me and I love you and I’m so, so. I’m just so grateful to know you and I’m excited to get off this call and come give you a kiss and a hug and just spend the rest of our day together, so it’s gonna be so good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I really do appreciate your vulnerability on this podcast. I know it, you were definitely open to being on the podcast, but little hesitant talking about some of these subjects because of the intense shame it can [01:30:00] bring up. But I know that by talking about it, that’s where shame can lessen because we get connection and I know what you’ve talked about will be able to resonate with other people. And so I so appreciate you sharing all of this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah, I agree that, you have really hard things that have happened and just like one on top of the other and just having you here, being vulnerable, but also offering other people, a chance to see that queer joy is on the other side of really, really difficult things, or even just joy in general is on the other side or even in the midst of really difficult things. We can see all of that in your story, so thank you for sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> Yeah. It’s, thank you for having a platform that I know is, is safe. You know, and I, sitting here and talking with you both is, is one experience. And then I’m sure I’m gonna have all kinds of feels about it [01:31:00] being out, out in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But also, just no one, like you’re not alone. And I can’t emphasize or stress that enough. And just that little moment of like Kate saying, Hey, I’ve never wanted this for myself to have a child. And being able to, to say that openly as well. And there’s a lot of power in saying things out loud. There’s a lot of control in keeping things to yourself. There’s just a lot of, manipulation that can come in not deciding that for yourself, you know, and deciding to keep things hidden. And, I mean, I always joked about this, that quote from the scriptures where it’s like all of these things are gonna be yelled from the rooftops, you know? And almost as if that image alone needs to scare you into submission, into following these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When really, how freeing to be able to stand on your [01:32:00] rooftop and say, I am queer. Or This leukemia freaking sucks. Like I cannot go to another clinic appointment without yelling before going, like, I’m just going to be so annoyed here. And that being okay for other people to hear from my rooftop, like if they wanna shut their door, fine, you know, like that is fine. But I do not need to sit here and limit my story or quiet my story or go inside my home in fear that these struggles and these things I’ve been going through can’t be talked about from the roof. Like you don’t want people to be able to say them from the rooftop. I am really proud<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Good. Good. Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Love<\/p>\n\n\n\n

hearing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaneesha:<\/strong> like, it’s like, damn it, I’m alive. And [01:33:00] I’m so happy I did it. Like guys I’m alive. And there’s been kind of those moments in our relationship, Colette, where it’s like, can you imagine if we had just both succumbeded and I say succumb as if that’s a bad thing, and it’s not, but like, ugh, like can I just can’t imagine, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And we can yell these things from the rooftops. And people can hear them. They can sit in their own discomfort, they can deal with their own things. But there is absolutely no shame in knowing you’ve gone through really hard things and are still on the other side of it, that there is this joy in these places.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so thank you Kate, for opening up about some of those thoughts that maybe you didn’t even necessarily have words or ways to talk about it anyways, but for just saying, oh yeah, I felt that way too, once. like just going from there and people are people and we love and just yell [01:34:00] whatever you want from your rooftop and it’s your rooftop.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And enjoy the life that you get to create, that we get to create for ourselves standing firm in those areas. And not letting the discomfort of Kate telling me that they don’t wanna have children. Maybe I feel feelings of uncomfort and like, oh, is that okay? Is that weird? And realizing that just because Kate told me doesn’t mean that they need to sit in discomfort and shame and that they need to take responsibility for the fact that I’m feeling uncomfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Because your story is yours. And stand by those decisions with pride and with just confidence that they can change and you’re not less than for having opinions change. I believe that’s like the definition of education and learning and growing is accepting these ideas when we have that information, and then learning new aspects and growing in new ways and evolving and [01:35:00] changing. That is what our entire world and life and ecosystem thrives in. Having these major devastating Environmental things happen and beautiful flowers and new life and new. Strengthen the trees, strengthening the ground, and all of these things, everything will evolve and that’s good and that’s normal. And normal being exactly the word. it’s ours and we move forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Thank you. Thank you for sharing. I am just so proud of all of us for talking about these hard things, like we’ve all talked about how we’ve dealt with suicidal ideation and depression, and I think there’s just such power in talking about it and, dissipating shame and realizing you’re not alone. So thank you for being brave and sharing your story on here, Kaneesha. I really appreciate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. If you’re liking these podcasts, we’d love it if you’d rate and review Called to Queer on the podcast player of your choice, so other people [01:36:00] are more likely to find us. We’d also love it if you share a podcast with a friend who could benefit from hearing these stories. If you’d like to donate to support the ongoing cost of our podcast, you can do that by clicking the Donate button at the top of our homepage. If you wanna contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In this episode, we interview Kaneesha Wardle. We talk about her not really wanting children, realizing she was queer when she was pregnant, then going through extreme postpartum depression. Kaneesha also discusses what it’s like having a child diagnosed with cancer, finding moments of joy even during really hard things, and some ideas on how to deal with shame.<\/p>\n

Kaneesha Wardle recently permed her hair because it was the straightest thing about her. It’s also somehow helped her tap into her inner child more, which she’s really enjoyed. She may still be trying to figure out what she wants to do with her life professionally, but in her free time, she enjoys cuddles, puzzles, playing games, and coloring.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[8,20],"tags":[30,14],"class_list":["post-522","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-episode-transcripts","category-interview","tag-divorce","tag-mixed-orientation-marriage"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/522","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=522"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/522\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":526,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/522\/revisions\/526"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=522"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=522"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=522"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}