{"id":511,"date":"2022-12-19T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2022-12-19T07:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/?p=511"},"modified":"2022-12-18T17:40:43","modified_gmt":"2022-12-19T00:40:43","slug":"bree-borrowman-she-her","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/2022\/12\/19\/bree-borrowman-she-her\/","title":{"rendered":"Bree Borrowman (she\/her)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Colette:<\/strong> Hello and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, genderqueer, and intersex experiences. I’m Collette and my pronouns are she\/her,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> And I’m Kate. And my pronouns are they\/them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Today, we’re interviewing Bree Borrowman and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jump into that, we wanted to start off by seeing what brought us Queer Joy this week. So Kate, what brought you Queer Joy this week?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Okay. I don’t know if this is, this is like real queer joy, but I experienced it. So it must be queer joy, right? So,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> agree.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> In Constanta, Romania, where I live, they have Christmas lights everywhere. It feels a little bit like Salt Lake City, where you have to actually, you know, in Salt Lake, [00:01:00] go downtown and walk around. Mm-hmm. But here it’s like, just on the streets, just everywhere, these Christmas lights.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I set up my queer Christmas tree, which Colette and I had queer Christmas trees last year, Uhhuh year. It was so exciting. So I set up my queer Christmas tree. It’s got my rainbow lights, and then just to see the lights outside to me, just like very, it’s a very simple queer joy. But that brought me a lot of queer joy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I don’t know the, the tree itself is lit up right now. But it’s in pride lights, but I mean, just. The experience of Christmas and love and even I’m experiencing darkness differently this year. The winter I’m experiencing is just like bringing me a lot of comfort and joy and hot chocolate and those things and it’s, that’s been nice this year and different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah. That is nice. I know winter, I was talking to some people last night, but [00:02:00] winter can just be so hard with the darkness and the how that competes with almost consumerism at the same time. It’s like in this period where the world is telling us to rest and slow down with the darkness, we’re supposed to like push, push, push, push, push. And so I love that you are just sinking into, oh, this is the season, it’s cuddle up and have hot chocolate and live my life that way. And I love that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Thank you. Yeah, I agree. It’s, it’s nice. It’s a nice, a new way of doing things. Okay, Colette, how about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> So my queer joy is my, uh, girlfriend and I went up to Ogden a couple nights ago for this healing group and we had met the facilitator once before at a queer women’s gathering.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so we just decided to try this out and go and it was just so fun walking in and we’re like, wait, we’re not the only queer couple here. Like, I love finding other queers in the wild. Kate always laughs when I say queers in the [00:03:00] wild, but like, it’s just brings me so much joy because it’s like instant, oh, I’m not alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Like, you know, we were cuddling and kind of cuddled up, but then there were two other queer like queer couples that we could see that we’re there too, cuddled up with each other and it was just so happy to be like, wait, this is Ogden? Like this, this is not what I expected to walk into in a space in Ogden. But talking to my girlfriend, she lived up there, there and she said it’s actually has a pretty decent scene. And so that was just really fun and unexpected for me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Nice. Yeah, just like the normalcy. I love how you’re like, wow, this is amazing. Just to feel normal. I love that. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Like it’s a kinda low bar sometimes ,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> but also that’s what I want. Like I want a boring life. I uhhuh, I’m like craving something boring, you know,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> So love that. So how about you Bree? Love to hear what your queer joy is. [00:04:00]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Okay, so hi everybody. Bree and my pronouns are she\/her\/hers. And I’m happy to be here. This is gonna be really fun. So I’m looking forward to it. My queer joy, I have a bunch really. Where someone reaches out to me or I get in contact with someone that’s, experiencing something along the dynamics of the LGBTQIA community. And it’s just really fun. Like, I guess I kinda, I’m gonna coin your phrase, queers in the wild. That’s kind of fun. It’s just like, every day I meet somebody new.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I’ve been thinking the last little while about what I would share for my queer joy. And it’s just, it’s kind of hard to choose, but one I wanna bring up, little bit of queer joy and I guess, I don’t know, the, we’re finally making progress on the, Marriage Equality Act. Here in the United States.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And, I know, I know for a lot of us it’s like, yeah, this is really great, but, because there’s some caveats to it. But it is a [00:05:00] step. It is a step forward and I just have to, I, I have to celebrate every single little step, even if it’s a baby step. And to finally see that moving forward. And it’s just, it, it brings me a little bit of comfort that there is hope.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That even if it’s a baby step it’s a baby step. And the other one, I guess, this one happened just yesterday and I wasn’t even expecting this one, but I love this queers in the wild. I have a friend who lives in Idaho, and has not come out full-time. So when they come down here to Salt Lake, it’s an opportunity to be their authentic self.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

They’re out of their community. So, you know, you’re always worried about getting caught or somebody finding you, or, oh my goodness, what if people know? And so when you’re out of your own community, it’s an opportunity to be your authentic [00:06:00] self. And so my friend comes down, um, from time to time and we go out shopping.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

One of my favorite things to do is go shopping and we, we call it rock climbing. I guess just, you know, let’s get together and go rock climbing. And so we go rock climbing every now and then, but it means go out shopping and whether we actually buy anything or not, we just like to get out and go shopping. Just be out in public. Queers in the wild? And I have a little bit of an advantage in that I have, I’m fully out 24\/7 my whole life and so I’m very, very comfortable. Um, other people aren’t quite as confident or comfortable in being out in public and you can kind of sense that you kinda get a feeling that they’re just not really comfortable or confident in who they are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And oh my goodness, if I could just [00:07:00] give that to them, if I could help them be confident and know that they are an amazing, wonderful individual and they have potential and they have light and they have worth and value, is this what that would be able to do for them? And I see people like that all the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So anyway, my queer Joy, that was a long ex, that was a long lead up to my queer joy from yesterday, wasn’t it? So my queer joy yesterday, we went shopping and we went to the local mall downtown, Salt Lake, City Creek Mall. And, you know, it is, it’s interesting to find those people. And I, don’t like to just label people like, oh my goodness, they were obviously trans.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But when I, when I see they’re not comfortable, when I see they don’t have that self-confidence, so we went to lunch and our server came over at lunch and, [00:08:00] uh, dark hair, beard, kind of close shaven, but a beard and very low voice. Long earrings, cat eye, rim glasses, a sheer blouse. A name tag that said Sophia . And so we, our server yesterday was trans female. And it was, it was just so fun to be at a restaurant out in public and have your server, I mean obviously totally comfortable with themselves, um, and just they were, they were them. And later on in the day shopping, we went down to the cosmetics beauty counter. Of course,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Uhhuh, .<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> And a similar experience an individual with a beard and mustache still, but in a dress, and I mean, sequin [00:09:00] dress and fancy jewelry. And of course they worked at the makeup counter, so they had the makeup on. But it was just fun. Queers of the wild. There were two of them yesterday in our little experience, and they were just totally out, totally comfortable with who they were. And everyone around them was accepting and, oh, I hate the word accepting. Mm-hmm. But<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> it’s kind of a low bar .<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yeah, it is. You shouldn’t, we shouldn’t have to be accepted or we shouldn’t have to accept people. It, we just are who we are and, and we can, we can give unconditional love. And they were very comfortable in their environment. They were comfortable with their fellow employees, they were comfortable in talking to people in the public. And I was just kinda like, yay is so great. So that’s my queer joy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Wow. That is like a lot of queer joy. I’m so impressed from one outing, one rock climbing event, .<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yep. It’s really fun and it happens a lot to me. Um, [00:10:00] like I say, I probably have an experience every single day. So come run with me. It’s a lot of fun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> You know where to go. So my question is, did you, did you ask anybody their pronouns? I think that this is kinda a, a good spot to model how, what people can do when they’re out and about and experience somebody who is maybe visibly trans or isn’t assumed the gender that they are or something. How do you interact?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Well, so, um, we didn’t ask pronouns yesterday because I guess, I don’t know, for me it’s if somebody is, if somebody’s presenting feminine, you know, a dress and makeup, And jewelry and earrings and high heels and, but just kinda assume. But yeah. The interesting thing is you don’t know, but we did ask [00:11:00] names<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> so we we can, we could hear Kit in the background.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> I know kit in the background,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Kit is Bree’s wife who’s, who suggested that somebody, somebody could be non-binary, but<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> non-binary. They could be. Um,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> but I, I think that what you’re explaining is just, is really important. Just using somebody’s pronouns that you can see that they’re name tag, you can see these things. It’s not, it’s not something you have to like, make this huge deal out of, you can ask somebody their pronouns, but, but just being courteous, uh, for a way a person is obviously presenting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Okay. And for me it’s, it’s more the name than it is the pronouns. You know, if we ask a name and they, you know, and their name tag, we can’t quite read it. We’re like, oh, what’s your name? We can’t see your name tag. And they’re like, it’s Sophia. We don’t have to worry so much about pronouns, because anytime in your sentence that you’re gonna use a pronoun, you [00:12:00] can always insert Sophia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> So if, if you just use a name and you’re right, um, right, we don’t know. And it would probably be, and and there’s nothing. Oh, so Sophia, nice to meet you. What are your pronouns? And that’s just a very simple and easy thing to do. Um, it’s hard to get into the habit of doing that, but again, if you’re not sure, it’s really easy to just use their name every time you’re gonna use a pronoun. So anyway, it was, it was great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> So we’re, we really are gonna get into Bree’s 60 seconds, life in 60 seconds, but there is so much to discuss here and be thinking about because people just aren’t used to talking about, um, trans individuals unless they’re legislators and have this idea that they should be legislating people’s bodies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But for the most part, we don’t get into these sorts of nitty gritty [00:13:00] conversations. And something that I’ve found from BIPOC communities. There are many people who have said, stop, stop using white passing. That’s, that puts all the emphasis on me to pass. And so I’ve adjusted my language when it comes to, um, trans folks too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It’s not trans passings. It is male assumed or woman assumed or, um, whatever else. Instead of using this language of whether you could pass or not. How do you feel about that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> So, um, I like that a lot and I appreciate that thought. I know for me, uh, and for a long time it has been my feeling with the transgender community that the emphasis was on passing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That [00:14:00] you, in fact, there was a time, uh, we know, I’m looking at, at history, that there were, there were groups of, there were organizations, um, that dealt with this back in the sixties and seventies. And they felt that the only, the only individuals that could transition were those that could pass. Um, and so there was this huge emphasis on passing, and I’ll admit that was a big deal for me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I wanted to be able to look my authentic self, what I wanted to look like and how I felt comfortable, but I wanted to be able to pass as my authentic self. And part of that is you’ve lived with shame and guilt for so long that you don’t want to be your authentic self and go out and be shamed. To have somebody clock you [00:15:00] and, and be shamed for being yourself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So trying to pass was really important. It was like the most critical thing for a trans person. I love now that we’ve kind of moved away from that, we’re, we’re, we’re getting to the point where it’s not so much about passing and it doesn’t matter whether people clock you or not. It’s, this is my authentic self, this is who I am.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it sounds kind of harsh, but I don’t care what other people think. Um, and part of that is I have lived with shame and guilt so long that I just can’t do it anymore. And I’m gonna be me regardless of how I’m perceived, whether I pass or not. And whether people, people accept me or not, I. I just have to be me finally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And oh, it’s so healing. It’s so healing to, and [00:16:00] you know, we talk about how to deal with, uh, curing or fixing transgender individuals and, and the cure is to let them be whole. Yeah. Is to let them get rid of that shame and guilt that they feel. And the cure is to let them be a, that they’re an as their authentic self and be whole to finally feel alive and like they’re not broken and they’re not a mistake.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Who they are is who they are and it’s wonderful. And it’s to be, it’s to be embraced and they have worth and they have value and they’re loved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I hope everybody is applauding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> And so I, I really, I really love that. I see this, um, in, in the, in society in general, but also mostly in the community. If people are just finally comfortable being themselves, regardless of whether they pass.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I have a really good friend up in the Portland [00:17:00] area and she will, she will tell you, and she says it quite often, she says, I don’t pass. I know I don’t pass. When I go out in public, I know everybody knows I am. I am male with makeup on and a wig in a dress. I know I don’t pass, but if somebody holds the door for me or somebody’s nice to me, um, if, if they call me ma’am, just, just outta respect says that’s all I need.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yeah. Says that’s all I need. I just, if people just show me compassion and treat me kindly. That’s all I need. And it’s like, yes, that’s the answer. Yep. Just treat each other with civility and kindness and compassion and yeah. . So, wow. Did I go on or,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> that’s excellent. It was excellent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> I’m not, I’m not even sure I answered your question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> No, you did. You did because you, you used the language of [00:18:00] passing. And I think that this is, this is a really interesting word to be using for, um, in, in trans, in the case of trans individuals, especially as a non-binary person, I think a lot about what does it mean that I’m passing as non-binary? To me, I don’t really even know what that means, but to hear you explain it about these other circumstances, I think it is a useful term.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Well, for a long time I’ve noticed a difference in myself. Um, I will admit that I have some passing privilege. Um, I, I come off pretty well. Um, so, but, um, I have friends who don’t, and there’s been, there’s been a, a time here where I would watch people’s reactions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Okay, so somebody, somebody that’s, that experiences gender incongruence or dysphoria and [00:19:00] a a, again, this whole thing about passing, uh, we get very good at reading body language. Um, when you go out in public and you’re presenting as yourself, You notice every glance you notice everybody that looks at you, you notice how they look at you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You notice how they posture themselves because for a long time passing was so important. And so you just had your radar on, you were, you were scoping out everybody and how they were reacting to you. Um, and I’ve noticed kind of a, a shift in the perception of the public. Um, it, it used to be that you would get stares if you didn’t pass.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And people might even approach you and be a little aggressive or clock you verbally, and now you’ll get a sideways glance or two, and then people are okay. They just, they kind of go on with what they’re doing. And so, and I [00:20:00] think part of that is, is because we have more people that are being authentic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Whether it’s non-binary or trans or whatever, they’re being more authentic. And with being authentic comes that self-confidence and that assurance that you have worth, you are whole. You’re a person, you’re not broken. You are who you are. And with that confidence, people can sense that. And so the feeling that I get with the community, uh, and again, I hate to say the word acceptance cuz we shouldn’t have to accept each other, but I, I see a better acceptance for having to use that word with being out in public and being your authentic self and how people react to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, um, it’s, it’s wonderful. Uh, yeah. , what? Kit is interjecting something. What about other states? Is it [00:21:00] just here? Oh, so that’s a good question. So Kit asks, what about other states? Um, and I’ve just, I just have the experience here in Utah and the Salt Lake. Well, no, I, I have experience here in Utah and Salt Lake.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I have experience in California and Nevada and Portland, Oregon area, and Provo. So, and I see a change. I see a shift all over. I remember, oh, years and years ago, um, being in Las Vegas. And oh wow, this was like probably eight or nine years. being on in Las Vegas and being in one of the casinos, and I verbally heard somebody shout out across the whole casino pointing to another individual [00:22:00] and clocking them, Hey, that’s a, that’s a dude in a dress.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I don’t see that kind of reaction or I don’t see that kind of thing going on anymore, and you’re like, whoa, in Las Vegas. But yeah, you know, 8, 8, 9 years ago, there was just kind of a, a social, uh, norm to, to point out people that were different and especially somebody who is trans and especially a trans female.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

They were kind of a target for a long time, and I don’t see that as much anymore. But I don’t know about other areas.. And it’s like, well I hope fingers crossed that that’s actually the case. So, um, those are some interesting thoughts. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Thanks Bree. How about we find out who you are? let’s who I am. Yeah, let’s hear your [00:23:00] in 60 seconds that we know. 60 seconds. We wanna hear your story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Okay. I told you earlier, I can’t do, I can’t do my story in 60 seconds, so, um, so let’s see. I was born on Christmas Day. Yay. Kind of fun. 1957. So that’s going back a bit. You can do the math and figure it out if you want cuz a woman never tells her age. . Um, and grew up in Bountiful, Utah. And I’ve lived in this same kind of general area my whole life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when I was eight. Brought up in a fairly religious family. My, my father wasn’t real orthodox. I think he went to church just out of a matter of convenience.[00:24:00] If not, what else am I gonna do? My mom was a little bit more orthodox, but she was very, Very open-minded, um, very accepting and just, it just could take people for who they were.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

My siblings, I don’t remember them being really, really active or religious, I think back over the years and I, I really can’t picture them in church with me. So I’m the youngest of six. By several years, my oldest two sisters moved out of the house before I even really knew who they were.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I, I kind of joked that I grew up in a family of six children as an only child. I really felt like I was just kind of the only kid in the family. I had an experience when I was about, I don’t know, six or seven, eight [00:25:00] years old. Where, um, I was just fascinated with my sister’s dresses and I, I put one on, well, I got caught in my sister’s dress and I don’t remember.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

All I remember is my family standing in the doorway with me in my sister dress and they were smiling and I think laughing. And I think at the time I took that as a bad thing that they were scorning and mocking me. Looking back, they may have just thought I was cute. Oh, you know, here here’s this cute little brother in my dress.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But that stayed with me. And then when I was a little older, of course, like. 13, 14. And you know that really easy time in your life called puberty, where everything’s just great and you sail on mm-hmm. , you don’t have any [00:26:00] problems at all.. Yeah. Well, unlike everybody else, my puberty was a little difficult.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, but like everybody, right? We go through all these changes and I remember wondering why my physical body was not changing the way I thought it should. I definitely felt like I should be becoming female. I, this you’re gonna, you’re gonna love this one. I remember, I was wondering why I wasn’t developing breasts so that I could wear a bra.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I wanted to wear a bra. And I know like the overwhelming majority of women can’t stand to wear them. you’re like, what is wrong with you? Now that I’m my authentic self, yes, I, I finally get to dress the way I want. But I remember as a teenager it’s like, wait, [00:27:00] this, I should be getting breasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I should be developing feminine. And when it didn’t happen, I remember just, I was disappointed. Also along about that time, you know, as an adolescent, just start to be interested in your looks. And so looking in the mirror and trying to, trying to identify who I was, I didn’t recognize the face looking back at me when I looked in the mirror, it, it wasn’t a bad face. It just wasn’t mine. And I just, I didn’t recognize myself looking in the mirror. So I know this is gonna be a surprise to anybody that knows me now, but I didn’t spend a lot of time in front of a mirror. I would get up in the morning and I’d run my hands through my hair. If it looked somewhat decent, I’d throw on clothes and go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I didn’t spend a lot of time in front of the mirror cuz I didn’t recognize the person looking back at me. [00:28:00] So, this is probably where you start to feel this disconnect, this incongruence, there’s something different about that person in the mirror and who I really am. Um, went through several, uh, several attempts, let’s say to fix me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I was told several times, I mean the typical phrase and no fault for anybody else cuz they didn’t know any better. Neither did I at the time. Just pray harder. Just read your scriptures, be more faithful and it’ll go away. Um, it didn’t go away. As I got a little older, it was, oh, if you, if you go on a mission and if you serve faithfully for the entire two years, you’ll come home and you’ll be cured.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I did the mission, went to Northern England, absolutely loved it. Still do, I just, I [00:29:00] consider myself a nonofficial British citizen. Came home and guess what? It was still there. And it’s like, okay, so either I didn’t serve faithfully or I’m broken cuz it didn’t work. The next thing, of course, the next one in line, oh, well find a good woman, get married and she’ll cure you. This kind of thing. Oh, well, once you’ve been, once you’ve been with a woman and you’ve, you’ve associated and yeah. Your relationship with a woman, you’ll be cured. I found an amazing, wonderful woman, the most amazing woman I’ve ever known. And we’ve been married for 42 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

She’s that amazing . And she finally cured me. She finally cured me three years ago when she gave me complete, total [00:30:00] unconditional love and accepted me, accepted. She didn’t accept me. She loved me, and she’s been my ally and confidant through this whole experience. And I know that’s not what they thought when they said, oh, marry good woman, she’ll fix you,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It took us a lot of years. I found that the way that I could deal with my dysphoria and my incongruence was just be busy. I threw myself into everything. As long as my brain and my hands were busy, I could keep my dysphoria at bay. Um, my journey’s a little different in that my incongruence is really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This mismatch between my physical body and who I am, my dysphoria isn’t as strong as some other people with some coping skills, I could, I could keep my dysphoria in [00:31:00] check. So I just, I did everything. I had so many hobbies. At one time, Kit told me, if you get another hobby, you’re gonna have to give one up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I’m like, wait, wait, wait. You don’t understand. I have all these hobbies to keep busy cuz if I don’t keep busy, this is how I’m coping. And I was, I was panic, I was, I lived in fear every day that I kept found out about my authentic self and that I was really trans, she would leave me. So I did what I could to hide that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And there were times in my life I was, I was 180 degrees for my true, authentic self because I didn’t want anybody to find out. I did whatever I could to let people perceive that I was homophobic and transphobic and very anti LGBTQIA and I feel so bad about that now cause I probably missed out on, on social people over those years when I was trying to hide. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Um, [00:32:00] one of my hobbies included building houses. I mean, building by hand. I have hand nailed houses and I have done everything from concrete to plumbing to shingling, and I did that just to cope. So just as a hobby, I built eight and a half houses. The half one was like a basement, finished the basement, but, and just, yeah, things like that. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

I do a lot of road cycling. I’m a road cyclist and I bicycle a lot. When I was younger, I was never asked to play in on a team sport. I was never asked to play basketball or football or any of those things because I was too little. I was too effeminate. They called me names. They bullied me, but I could always go ride a bike. I didn’t, I didn’t need a team. I didn’t need a friend. I didn’t need to be big. [00:33:00] I could always go ride a bike. So riding bicycle became a really, really good coping skill for me. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Married 42 years. We have four biological children and one adopted child, our oldest child, um, our boy passed away nine years ago. Um, complications from severe alcoholism, so that was a little bit of a struggle at the time. Um, we have 11 and a half grandchildren, so one more on the way. We, we thought we were done at 11. But we got surprised the other day that our youngest daughter’s having one more. So,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> yay. Congratulations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> We’re gonna be, we’re gonna be 12 and we think we’re probably done there, but who knows?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Life’s journey takes a detour every now and then, like mine did three years ago. So, three years ago I had an experienced that forced me out. [00:34:00] I had an experience of the priesthood leader, that put me in a situation where I just, I had to let everybody know. And so this started, oh, it was a tough time when I was told that my authentic self was sinful and wicked and I was not worthy of my heavenly parents’ love, basically.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It was very dysphoric. And that kind of started, that started my journey to figure out if I was my authentic self, if I was really broken and unloved. Um, and, you know, the, as I mentioned before, the, the first thing that happened and the best thing that happened was just unconditional love and support from my spouse, Kit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I realized all those years that I lived in fear that she would leave me. Immediately, she just, [00:35:00] she gave me unconditional love and I knew I could be my authentic self and I could be okay because really it doesn’t so much matter whether I’m accepted in public or not. It matters whether my companion of 42 years loves me, or not, and my self-worth with my heavenly parents and my savior.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I found that in going through this process of becoming my authentic self, I found that I had built walls between me and my heavenly parents because I thought I was broken and I was a mistake and they didn’t love me. And I found out that when I finally accepted who I really was and my true, authentic self and that I was loved, I was able to break that wall down that I had built spiritually.[00:36:00]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I had become very numb spiritually just going through the motions. And I finally came to a point that I could love myself and that I could realize that other people love me too, including my heavenly parents and my savior. And this is when the fear and the shame and the guilt went away. It finally fixed me. And it’s been an amazing experience. Like I mentioned earlier, I run into somebody every single day who I can reach out and I can show love and support.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Um, but the biggest thing that I really appreciate from this is not only knowing my unconditional love for my heavenly parents and my savior, but I now look at other people differently. It’s been a real shift from many, many years [00:37:00] ago being 180 degrees from who I truly was and trying to be homophobic and transphobic, so nobody guessed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

To embrace this LGBTQIA community and just fall in love with everybody and just find that I belong, not that I’m trying to fit in and find love and support and just, I couldn’t be more happy with my chosen family. What a wonderful, amazing community and just the love that I feel when I’m with anybody. And I can log onto this Zoom call and I can talk to the two of you and just feel like I’m talking to family and it’s just an amazing, wonderful experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So let’s see. I probably left out a lot, but that was more than 30 seconds. .<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Great jumping off points though. I’m really excited to dive into more [00:38:00] of your story cuz man, too. When you were talking at the beginning just about queer joy, about the idea of not being fully out and everything to have just three years ago to be outed in a way, like you, you’ve got to figure this out now to be this point where you are completely out in every area. There’s no more hiding. That’s a really neat transition and I think a lot of people, um, that I’ve talked to or worked with sometimes are like, oh, it’s too late for me. Like, I’ve lived my life. Like, it’s what’s the point now? And I love how you’ve just become more of yourself and really allowed yourself to live your life and it wasn’t too late. You’re living such a beautiful life as your authentic self and it’s so beautiful to see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Thank you. It is, and it’s interesting because I thought of this just a little earlier today. Um, it’s [00:39:00] interesting. To find that there’s kind of a, there’s a generation of my age that are realizing that they have lived with this in hiding and in shame for like 50 years with the thought that they could never be their authentic self.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And yeah, you get to that point, you’re like, well, is it too late for me? Well, you know, do you wanna live another five or 10 years? I mean, if you’re that old and you’re thinking, oh, I’m only gonna live another 10 years, why do you wanna live another five or 10 years in shame and guilt? Or do you wanna be happy, do you wanna, do you wanna finally feel like you’re whole? Do you finally wanna feel that you are loved? Do you finally wanna feel like you’re not broken? [00:40:00] <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it’s like, even if it’s just for a few years, I cannot, uh, back up a little bit. Um, I have friends, so just so you know, see, I left this part of my story out. Um, my siblings, my siblings are just ecstatic across the board. They’re like, oh my gosh, we can’t believe it. And they’ve commented on how different I am and not, I don’t feel different. I just feel like I’m letting people experience more of me. The parts of me that I hid and kept buried are now I, it’s me. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I used to just sit with my siblings and I would sit there and not say a word. I would let the conversation go on around me and I was just the person in the back corner and they’ve all said the last time we got together, they’re like, oh my goodness. It’s like, you’re alive, you’re engaged in the conversation, you’re interacting with us. It, this is. This is amazing. One of my sisters said, [00:41:00] well, we, we were just about ready to take up bets as to how long it would take you to come out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I said, well, thanks. You know, if I’d have known I had some support from my siblings, I may have come out earlier. My one sister hit the nail on the head. She said, you know what? To be honest, you presented so homophobic, we didn’t dare say anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it was kind of a slap a, you know, so, but on the other side of the coin, um, my, my children have chosen to step away from me. So I’ve had a lot of people say, well, that must be really hard for you, that your children have chosen to step away. And I relate this back to, it’s too late for me. Why transition now, blah, blah, blah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When I think about who I am now [00:42:00] and how I feel now, how I feel with my relationship with other people, mostly how I feel in my relationship with my heavenly parents and my savior. This feeling that I have every day, that I’m whole and that I’m not broken, that that doesn’t compare to the feeling I have when I’m with my kids.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I mean, I love my kids. Great. They’re all grown. They’re married, they have kids. They’re, they’re comfortable. They’re doing well. I would love to have them in my life, mostly because I would love to have them get some of the experience and the love that you can get from the LGBTQIA community.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It’s like you’re missing out on so much if, if you could only realize, if you could just get a glimpse [00:43:00] of embracing people and seeing the light in their eyes, knowing that everyone has worth, it’s life changing. And I’m kind of sad that my children don’t want a part of that yet. But when I think of, oh, in order to have my children in my life, I have to be miserable. I have to just continue living in shame and doubt. And in the closet, it’s like I, it might sound harsh, but it’s not worth it. Um, how I feel now about me. It’s overwhelmingly better for me, myself, health than to worry about whether my children are gonna be nice to me or not. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

So in answer to your question, when people say, oh, it’s too late for me, uh, do you want to go on where you are [00:44:00] living, the way you’re living? And is anything too late? I remember having a career choice when I was 48 years old, a career change, 48 years old, and the career I had had before, I didn’t need a degree of any kind. I started in the computer industry in 1980. You couldn’t get a degree in computers in 1980. So when, when they took my computer shop and outsourced it and I was looking for a new job, I didn’t have an undergrad degree even.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it got hard. And I said, do I wanna be 52 without a degree and still looking for a job without a degree? Or do I wanna go to school at 48, finally get an undergrad, and then go looking for a job with a bachelor’s degree? What do I want four years from now? And I think it’s kind of the same thing. It it’s never really too late.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Where do you wanna be [00:45:00] two or four or five years from now? What do you want your life to be like? For me it definitely wasn’t too late. Even if, even if I had just had this three years, it’s been the most wonderful, amazing three years of my life. So, and now my situation is my situation, it’s my journey.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that might not, I, I make it sound really easy, but I understand it’s not for everybody. But even just the thought, even if you just entertain the thought of, I don’t know, mentally being your authentic self, um, yeah, I would, I wouldn’t say it’s never too late, but my, again, my situation is probably different from others, but I just, I wish you could, uh, I wish you could feel the love and finally feeling like you belong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Absolutely. It’s it, and then you’re not [00:46:00] broken. It’s an amazing, it’s an amazing perspective to your life. Um, oh yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I think jumping off from that, can you talk about your new profession? So you went and got a degree in what and how did that go?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> so I had worked in the computer industry for 20 years and everybody was like, oh, you should just get another job in another computer shop.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I’m like, no. Um, and so I decided, well, looking for a job. It was really hard to find a career oriented job without an undergrad. And so it’s like, well, I have to get an undergrad degree. And it’s like, well, what am I gonna do? And all I could do is fall back on you go with what you know. Right about the old, my favorite class in high school was physics.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So it’s like, well, [00:47:00] if I’m gonna go to school, I might as well take classes I like, so I might as well focus on science. So I started all of my, uh, gen ed stuff and with kind of a focus on science somewhere. And somebody asked me once, well if you, if you get all done and you have a degree in physics, what are you gonna do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I’m like, I don’t know. And they’re like, well, you know, there’s only two things you can do with a physics degree. And I’m like, what’s that? They said, you can work for NASA or you can teach. And I went, oh, teach. Huh? I’d never thought of that. And it was interesting how just about the same time, I had several people who, you know, what are you doing? What are you going to school for? And I’m like, well, I don’t know. I’m, I’m doing physics and I understand you have to work, pronounce or teach. And everybody would be [00:48:00] like, oh, you’d be a great teacher. You should be a teacher. You’d be great at it. And I thought, aha. Teacher. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And there were a couple of attractive things when I worked in the computer industry. I was busy 24\/7, uh, back in the day when we had pagers and in the middle of the night the pager would go off and the system had gone down and you have to go in and fix it and blah. And I thought, Hey, teachers, they like, they like actually get some time off. They, they like, they don’t have to work weekends unless they choose to. It’s kind of an eight to five kind of thing. And in the computer field I worked rotating shifts, graveyards and swings and it’s like, well that sounds kind of attractive, you know, a little bit of free time. I didn’t realize, oh my goodness, free time. I’m gonna have free time and my brain’s not gonna be really active and I’m gonna start thinking about my incongruence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then, yeah. Anyway, [00:49:00] so I went to school, um, did all of my undergrad work and I had so much fun. It was my time. For schooling. Um, I ended up basically doing three bachelor’s degrees cuz I couldn’t decide what I wanted to do and if I was gonna teach, I wanted to give myself lots of options. So I ended up with physics, chemistry, and geology.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The only thing I didn’t do was throwing a biology cause it was just, yeah, I thought three was enough . Um, and since then I haven’t stopped, so I’ve gone on and done my graduate work. Um, and I just, I love it. It’s been so fun. So, but as soon as I was done with my undergrad, I started teaching, um, I got offered a job at a charter school, so not in public ed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But it’s just been a really [00:50:00] good fit from day one. So I’ve been a teacher now for 12 years. and so, There’s been a lot of the staff there at the school a good part of the administration and students that have watched my transition over the last three years. I remember three years ago when this all happened, when it first started, I didn’t know where my journey was gonna take me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so, uh, when I basically was outed by someone else, I, I didn’t want the administration of my school to hear about it from another source. I wanted them to hear from me. So I, I wrote a, an email and I sent it to the principal and the administrator and to the board. Um, and I basically just said, this is, [00:51:00] this is me. I have some mild dysphoria. I, I don’t know where this is going. I don’t know if someday I’ll show up at school in a dress. I don’t know. But I just want you to know this is what it is and it’s, it’s gonna become public information and I want you to hear it from me, not from somewhere else. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Within about five minutes, the administrator and the principal were up in my room. I mean, they barely had time to read it. And the principal said, if you think this changes anything, it doesn’t. And the school administrator said, if you think you’re gonna leave this school because of this, I’m not gonna write you a letter of recommendation. We’re not gonna lose you. Wow. And so I had support just like from the get-go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then my students, my students that year were my [00:52:00] students during my whole transition. And, um, it was, it was so, so rewarding. I, I would have students that as they watched me become my authentic self, a step at a time. I mean, this isn’t an overnight thing. As they watched me become my authentic self step by step, they started to become a little bit more personal.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I would have students that came up to me and said, can you use a different name in class? You can’t tell my parents. My parents can never know. But if I was, if we’re in class here, would, would you use a different name for me? Or could you maybe use different pronouns while we’re in class? And I just, I was so grateful that they would do that, that they, they felt [00:53:00] confident enough in me that I was a safe space, that they could confide in me and that they just needed a little safe space.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And of course, my answer’s yes. Absolutely. And it, it, it was just a wonderful experience. I would have students come in at the end of the day after the last bell, and they would just come and sit in my room and they would say, we just need to be in your room for a little while before we go home. And I could just tell that they just needed to be in a safe space before they went home where they couldn’t be themselves.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so this, this whole thing has been amazing. Um, my students that started with me three years ago, Then graduated last spring and they asked me to, uh, speak at their commencement as their graduation speaker. And I thought, oh yeah, no big deal. I’ve done this before, [00:54:00] like years ago. And then I wait a minute, you know what you’re doing right? And they were like, yeah, we, we want you to speak at our graduation. We admire your courage. We admire your vulnerability. Um, we appreciate the relationship that we’ve had with you for three years. We want you to speak at our graduation. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

It was very interesting because, um, I mentioned to this to a couple other people and they said, well, that’s very interesting. I wonder if there’s ever been a transgender person speak at a graduation. So I got online and I Googled it, and I binged it, and I looked all over. I couldn’t find anywhere in the entire United States that a graduation ceremony at any school had ever been given by a transgender person. There were a couple, there were a couple graduation [00:55:00] ceremonies at universities where the person was gay or non-binary, but no one that was actually trans.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And as far as I know, my graduation speech at that graduation last spring was the first time a transgender person spoke to graduation ceremony. So, and it was really great. Um, I had a friend who got word of it, and she called the newspaper. She’s like, well, is somebody coming to report that? And I’m like, I don’t know. I’m giving the speech. I, she’s like, I’m calling the papers. and she did. And the Salt Lake Tribune showed up and took pictures and did a really nice article<\/a> about the whole thing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so, um, my employment change has been really good. Uh, I just really appreciate support. Two years ago, well, going back to school, [00:56:00] not this fall, but the fall before the administration came to me and they said, um, you know, we wanna give parents a, a chance to adjust because these parents, you know, they’ve had older siblings in school. These parents know you from 10 years ago. We wanna give ’em a chance to adjust. So can we just put your name tag on your door as B Borrowman? Because before it was Mr. Borrowman, and they’re like, eh, Is it okay if we do B Borrowman? Because we don’t wanna do the Mrs. Borrowman yet. It’s too big of a step. We want parents to have time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I’m like, yeah, whatever. It was very interesting. Every single student and every parent that came back at, back to school night, the first question they had, what’s your preferred name? What are your pronouns? And when I told them every one of ’em [00:57:00] was accepting a hundred percent. They’re like, okay, great. That’s good to know. And most of ’em were like, we, we wanted to know. We were just kind of afraid. We didn’t know how to approach it. We didn’t know how to ask the questions. Now that we’ve noticed you’ve changed the name tag on your door, we wanna know. What’s your name? What’s your pronouns? And I told them and they’re just like, great, good. We’re just happy that our kids in your class. We’ve had older, older kids in your class and they loved your class. You’re a great teacher. We’re just happy they’re here. So it’s been just an amazing, I know it’s only been three years, but it seems like a lifetime , and it’s really been a truly amazing experience. I wouldn’t change it for the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Wow. Yeah, I think it’s important to know also you’re in Davis County. Davis County has some really harsh difficult public [00:58:00] school. It’s pretty conservative. Yeah. So it’s very, it’s just so nice to hear. This has been your experience. It’s, it just feels comforting and safe and reassuring to know that that can happen. Even, even in Davis County.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> It really is even in Davis County. Um, and. This last year, um, I don’t, I don’t know how many people know Davis County went through a thing where they asked all the teachers to take down rainbows and all that kind of stuff. You couldn’t have it in the classroom. And, you know, I felt kind of bad because, uh, here I am, creating a safe space for my students that feel less than and feel marginalized. Um, and realizing what a difference that could make. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And yet we have other schools that are like, no, we can’t, we can’t support, we can’t support people who feel less than. I was like, wait a minute. No. This is so [00:59:00] wrong. What do you mean we can’t support people that feel less than, they feel less than, they feel broken. They don’t feel like they belong. Isn’t, isn’t that kind of our job? Yeah. Isn’t that kind of what we do is to build confidence and, and let students as they’re going through this mess that we call adolescence and growing up to know that they’re, they’re not broken, they’re okay. There’s a safe space for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I mean, it’s just like, no, it’s just, uh, the irony, just, I don’t know. But yeah, I was really happy that I was able to be somewhere where I could be a safe space. And yes, I have my rainbows up and<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> so that is your like work transition. Can we talk about what it was like to transition for the church for you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Sure. We can.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Okay. And what that [01:00:00] looks like. I think that people don’t even know what that might look like in terms of<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yeah, probably not. Thanks Kate. You’re probably, that’s probably true. A lot of people, and when I talk to people, they don’t realize what, what it entails.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, um, as I mentioned earlier, it was kind of step at a time, um, three years ago when this all happened. Um, the, the most shocking thing to me at the time was, uh, the priesthood leader felt that because of this situation, I couldn’t have a temple recommend. I had worked in the temple from working in the kitchen to working as a veil worker.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I was, I was in the temple a lot. And to suddenly be told, you know, um, because of the situation, you can’t, you can’t go there. You’re not welcome. It was traumatic for me, and it was traumatic to the point that, like I mentioned before, it became dysphoric and kind of caused a [01:01:00] life-changing experience. I felt like there was a real connection between me having a recommend and being worthy and accepted to my heavenly parents that in order for my heavenly parents to love me, I had to have that recommend.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I had to prove my worthiness to them. Um, and so over the course of a little while, it was like, what do I do to get my recommend back? Working with my priesthood leader after a little while, we got to the point that it was, uh, there’s it, it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting line. It’s an interesting, I hate to call it a game, but you kind of play a little bit of a game the.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The qualifications are any type of transitioning, whether it’s social, uh, [01:02:00] medical or surgical, you, you will have membership restrictions. And those membership restrictions include not having a recommend. So the caveat to that was that’s for as long as the transitioning exists. So my priesthood leader determined that if I could come to church, what we call male mode in the trans community, we talk about male mode and female mode. Um, so if I could come to church male mode and do what, what was described as honor my priesthood, then I could have a recommend.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So for a period of time there, I kind of played that game. I was, I was my authentic self. During the week, I would get up and go to, to school,[01:03:00] the way I felt whole, I would do my makeup, I’d do my hair, I’d wear the clothes that I liked to wear. And then on Sunday, I, I put on the costume, and I, I went male mode. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kit and I kinda laughed that we kinda look at it at the other way around now that I was actually trans male for 50 years of my life and now I’m finally myself. Um, but that’s kind of what I felt like, it kind of felt like going to church. I was making myself be something else. And I did that for almost a year. Um, and it was hard. It, I, I had to mentally start preparing on Friday for Sunday. Sunday, you’re gonna have to, Sunday, you’re gonna have to dress this way. Sunday, you’re gonna have to wear these clothes Sunday. You can’t get up and do your makeup.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[01:04:00] And so that was really hard. But I did that to get my recommend back. After a little while, it just became, it became so hard for me to go to church. And not because of anything they said, just that I had to go as what I wasn’t, it felt like I was going, I was bringing my false self to my savior and to my heavenly parents. I wasn’t being authentic with them. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so I started thinking about it and praying about it and I’m like, what am I gonna do? This is really hard. And I felt like I got an answer to prayer that my heavenly parents said, we want you all in. We want your whole heart. We have a mission for you to do. And this mission includes [01:05:00] you being your authentic self all the time. We have worked for you on that side of the veil. You don’t need to recommend. We’ve got plenty of people to work in the temple and we’ve got lots of time to do it. The dead aren’t really going anywhere, but we need lots of help with the living. Yeah. We need people to work with the living, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Interesting. We understand. And I’m like, but if I’m out full-time, then I have to give up my recommend. And that means I’m not worthy. My, my heavenly parents are kinda like, what? What do you mean that? What do you mean you’re not worthy? You’re worthy. We know it. Don’t worry about that silly piece of paper.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And this was a process for about three months. I fought this, like every time I prayed it was like, I don’t know that I can [01:06:00] do this, because if I’m out authentically, then I have membership restrictions and that means I’m not good enough. It means I’m not worthy. I mean, and they just kind of kept waiting for me to come around.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I just kept getting the impression, yeah, we know, but that’s what we need you to do. And having a recommend is not that important right now. What we need is for you to be your authentic self and reach out and touch and support people on that side of the veil. And we need you to do it authentically. And I’m just like, ah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I fought with that for about three months, and I got to the point that I just, I decided I needed to stop fighting with them. They’re just so persistent , and it’s like, o okay, fine, I’m in. Okay, um, I’m in, let me [01:07:00] know what I need to do. And so it was just that I needed to be my authentic self and I knew that doing, in doing so, I would have membership restrictions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I said I’m all in if it means, you know, giving up my recommend and the other, uh, restrictions that I’ll have, then I’m in. You can have my heart. And within like two days we got a call from the stake executive secretary and he says, uh, stake president wants to meet with you. And I’m like, no, I can’t. I can’t do it. And then I hear my, I get inspired. I hear this, I get this little nudge. We want your whole heart. Go do it. And so we took the appointment and I went in and I told my stake president about this experience that I’d had with praying and what my [01:08:00] heavenly parents wanted me to do, and here’s my recommend.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And he kind of hesitated. He is like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don’t you wanna think about this? And I’m like, I’ve thought about this. And I fought with my heavenly parents for three months over this and I’m tired of getting beat up. They’re, they want me to do this. Okay. He, uh, kind of reluctantly took my recommend from me and he says, I want you to know that I admire you and I appreciate you. And I believe you’re right. You do have a mission on this side of the veil, and if you save, one soul will be worth it. And he says, I know you’re worthy of a recommend. I just can’t give you one because of policy. And it is, it was just, it was a wonderful experience. Um, the spirit was really strong, and it was just really nice to have confirmation of what I felt, um, [01:09:00] to know that, that he agreed that I, I needed, I needed to do this part of my mission.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Okay. Um, so giving that all back, of course then, uh, for people that don’t know any type of social transitioning, medical or surgical transitioning. As a member of the church, you have membership restrictions. So that means no, no Temple recommend. It means very few callings. You’re not really allowed to have a calling. \u00a0And you can’t exercise a priesthood if you’re trans female and you’ve been given the priesthood. Um, and those are the restrictions. So it’s like, well, you’re a member of the church, but only kind of. So it is a little bit hard, but, um, I’ve, I’ve been able to look at [01:10:00] this from a little bit of a different perspective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think of King Benjamin’s address when he is talking about charity and giving to the poor. You should just have the attitude that if I had, I would give, then that counts. That works. And so for me it’s like, well, I would have a recommend and I would go to the temple if they would give me one, but they’re not gonna give me one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So as long as my heart is in the right place, I know I’m good with my heavenly parents. And so this, it’s been interesting to see kind of a shift in my paradigm in looking at worthiness and that it’s, it’s not attached to that piece of paper. And the 10 questions they ask you to get that piece of paper, it’s, it’s where’s, where’s your heart?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Where are you in your relationship with your heavenly parents and your savior? That’s your worthiness. And oh my [01:11:00] gosh, I. If, if they decided to give me a recommend and I needed to try and fit going into the temple, into my daily schedule, I don’t know where I’d put it. They, they’ve got me so busy right now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I, I wouldn’t have time to, to go to the temple. So, um, anyway, and then, um, humor, humor kind of helps a little bit. I look at it with a little bit of, you know, well, yeah, if I, if I could, I would. Um, but since they tell me I can’t, that’s on them. I’m good. Yeah, it’s okay. Thanks for taking that off my plate. You, you’ve kind of given me some extra breathing room.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, um, my ward, uh, we don’t, we don’t go to the ward where our membership records are. Um, we haven’t for quite some time because we just never really felt like, we always felt like we were trying to fit in, [01:12:00] not like we belong. So, um, the, we go to a different ward and they’ve been very, very supportive, um, to this whole transition. So it’s, it’s been really great. It’s been wonderful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> It’s really interesting that you, you frame it this way because I think I’ve felt this way and I think at certain points Colette felt this way, I don’t know if you do anymore, that queer is a calling. This is, this is, this feels like, this feels like a calling and there is a lot of work to be done. And it, it sounds like that’s a, that’s exactly what you felt from your heavenly parents that this, they, they have called you to do this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yeah, and I like that. I like that as much as queer in the wilderness, or what was that phrase? Queer, queer, Wilder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Queers in the wild.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Queers in the wild. But yeah, kind of being queer as a calling, uh, just there’s, there’s so much to do and so many people to reach out and love and support and it’s [01:13:00] a full-time job<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> teaching people how to love. It’s interesting, cuz you had said that earlier about your kids too. Your kids are, your kids are missing out on learning how to love. And that is our calling, our calling is to teach people how to love, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate that. And yeah, I really agree. I mean, isn’t that what we were told. You know, the, the first and greatest commandment and the second greatest commandment. So yeah. And if I’ve, I’ve always felt like if you’re ever in doubt, love is always the answer. Mm-hmm. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I just have one more question., this is gonna feel like so out of place, but you were talking earlier about building houses and, um, riding your bike and all of those things that you were doing, and you mentioned that as part of gender incongruence versus gender dysphoria. Do you think that you can help people make that, those distinctions?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yeah. [01:14:00] So, um, and, and as I mentioned, um, it’s, it’s kind of a spectrum. So gender incongruence is the mismatch you feel between yourself, who you are and your physical, biological self. There’s a mismatch there. Um, some people describe it as like feeling car sick all the time. Other people describe it as like a pressure cooker on the stove and it’s simmering and it’s gonna blow the lid off.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Uh, for me it, for me, it’s kind of just a static. I just felt uncomfortable all my life. Like there was white noise. Um, and that’s, that incongruence, you just don’t feel right in your body. Just a mismatch. And for me, a lot of it was when I looked in the mirror, um, there was just a mismatch in what I saw and what I thought I should see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Um, and so then [01:15:00] that incongruence can cause distress. and that distress is what we call dysphoria. So it’s, it’s the distress brought on by that mismatch. And I think there’s a spectrum for both. My incongruence is really strong, my dysphoria is manageable. And I know people that are the other way around, they’re incongruence. They’re like, yeah, it doesn’t matter what I look like, but they just experience that dysphoria that they’re not themselves. And it’s, it’s, it’s really difficult. So both are a spectrum and you can land anywhere on that spectrum. And that’s one thing that I’ve found fascinating with the trans community at, you know, we, we wanna put the trans people in a box, you know, oh, if you’re trans, then this, this, this, and we tick boxes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Um, but it’s such a spectrum and it’s [01:16:00] like, whoa, really? You mean the cis het community is. Is a huge spectrum, but yet we wanna put the queer community in a no. It’s a, it’s a spectrum and we are all individual people and we have unique, wonderful qualities and we have value and we have worth. And so that spectrum is just as wide in the trans community as anywhere else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Um, I have, I have friends who they just need to go get a pedicure. They wear shoes and socks all the time, but they go get a pedicure and they get their toenails painted. Just knowing their toenails painted is, is enough. They’re like, okay, that’s just, that’s the part of me that made me feel like me. Um, and the other end of the spectrum, you know, that, uh, people who, who have surgery to feel right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So it’s a huge spectrum. But yeah, the incongruence is that mismatch and the distress caused [01:17:00] by that is the dysphoria.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> thank you. I think that will just be helpful for some people who, who don’t really know those distinctions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> And I actually do have another question that we can choose to not answer or go there if this is too personal, but I think some people get really hung up on labels and so they might find, it’s interesting that you are still married to your wife, um, through this transition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so I was just curious if you’re willing and able to speak to, um, like just what that was like if, I know you don’t wanna speak for Kit, but like does she consider herself a lesbian then or, um, again, I know people get hung up on labels. They’re like, Bree is Bree and Kit Is Kit and they are still a beautiful couple.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But I was just wondering if you could speak to that at all, if you’re willing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Sure, of course. Um, and that’s one thing I love about it. I’ve gotten to a point that I am, I’m [01:18:00] comfortable and, and confident in who I am, and it’s like, you can ask me any question. So, um, and yeah, I can’t speak for Kit, but I know some of the things we’ve kind of talked about over this three year period.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We kind of have talked about our relationship and those kind of labels. Um, we’ve discussed, well, how do we refer to each other? Do I call Kit my wife? Do I call Kit my spouse or my partner? And you kind of try out some different things until it, it sounds right or until it sounds like a fit. And for me, I, I use all of ’em and I think Kit does too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We call each other spouse, we call each other wife, we call each other partner. Um, We’ve kind of joked that. Yeah. And, and an answer to your question, you said, well, so I’m female and now that I’ve transitioned and I’m female [01:19:00] am am I lesbian? Right. So, yeah. Right. But like you say, it’s not so much about the labels.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Um, we’re not gonna get caught up on whether I’m, I’m trans female or whether I’m lesbian or where it is. It’s just, it’s our relationship and our relationship is what it is. One thing I’ve really appreciated, um, almost from day one, um, kit has, I don’t know, she’s got an innate, it’s probably just cuz of her unconditional love. She has rarely mis-pronouned me or misnamed me, and we’ve been married for 42 years and it’s almost like she just flipped a switch. Our relationship is, well, it’s better than it ever has been. Um, because for a long time I was, I was trying to live a secret and she could kind of tell that I was trying to live a secret.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that kind of put a barrier in the [01:20:00] relationship. And now that, that barrier’s gone, our relationship’s wonderful. Um, and so I don’t know. I, like, I kind of, I’ve kind of been endeared to the term help meet lately. Um, Kit is truly my helpmeet. She is helping me become or be who I really am and helping me in my relationship with my heavenly parents and my savior, and helping me in my relationship with her.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I hope likewise. That, that we are help meets to each other. I’ve told people with her, being the way she is with me, um, with her letting I, I hate some of these terms, letting me be my authentic self. I could never repay her for that. It’s just been, I, she’s just got an innate ability to just give unconditional love.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that’s one thing I’ve learned from this experience and from her is unconditional love. Um, not only, [01:21:00] not only how to give it, but how to receive it, which is a hard one. Um, so our relationship’s just really great. And yeah, we don’t, it’s not like, oh, are we a lesbian? We’re not afraid to hold hand in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We’re, we’re not afraid to have people see us together. Um, and in fact, we love it when they do and they ask questions. Um, so it’s part of that. It’s part of helping raise awareness and helping other people realize that, that the one thing you need to do is just love. And so, yeah, it’s been great and we kind of joke about it a little bit. Um, but yeah, it’s not so much the labels, um, for us, but for other people that it’s important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah. That’s great. Thank you so much for your openness in that. I know sometimes people are hesitant to ask these questions, they don’t wanna offend people. So I appreciate you being willing to talk about it and giving people a little bit of insight for how that works for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yeah, [01:22:00] sure. I’ve, I’ve gotta admit, it was kind of fun the first couple times that I was referring to kid as my wife, Uhhuh. And I, and I knew the person I was talking to knew I was female. Uhhuh . Now it’s kinda fun. ,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> I think that’s some queer joy right there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> It is. Oh, your wife? Yeah, my wife. I love that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think I had a, a wonderful opportunity to share my story and, and especially my last three years of transitioning and what it’s done for me. I think most importantly for me is how it’s opened up my relationship with others, but most importantly, my relationship with my heavenly parents and my savior.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

To be able to see the light in other people’s eyes. I know they have value and they have work, but also to know that me too, I have value and I have worth, and my heavenly parents and my savior love me unconditionally. Um, and that’s, [01:23:00] that’s been a part of my journey that has just been, I think the most valuable and coupled with that, as I’ve mentioned, is just knowing, uh, unconditional love from Kit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, I don’t know. It’s been amazing and been wonderful and it’s, it’s still going. It’s not like it’s done. Um, this, this journey. I, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t expecting this little detour in my journey three years ago, but I’m happy it happened and I don’t know where the next little detour will be. , but I hope it’s, I hope it’s half as, half as wonderful as, as this one was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So just being able to, to be involved in the LGBTQIA community, get to know people like yourselves and just feel an, an, an instant connection and to fill of your love and support and just, I mean, that’s the community and it’s like, why can’t the world be like this ? Why [01:24:00] can’t everybody else be like this?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Right. It’s, it should be so simple.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Yeah. And I think we’ll get there. I really do because it, it is the answer, just unconditional love and acceptance and show compassion and grace. Grace for grace.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Definitely. Well, we so appreciate your time and willingness and just joining us to share you. So thank you so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Thank you. I’m, I’m so happy to have been able to be part of this. This was really fun. Um, I got thinking the other day, I’ve done a, a couple podcasts before, but it was, it was before mm-hmm. And so this, this is like later and it’s a little bit of a different story and I’m, I’m just happy to have the chance to share it. So thanks for having me. It was really fun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> We’re very grateful. I think this will help a lot of people. You’re continuing on that, that calling of, of [01:25:00] loving people and teaching people how to love. So thank you. Good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bree:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. If you’re liking the podcast, we’d love it if you’d rate and review Called to Queer on the podcast player of your choice so that other people are more likely to find us. We’d also love it if you’d share a podcast with a friend who could benefit from hearing these stories. If you wanna contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In this episode, we interview Bree Borrowman. She discusses the idea of passing versus not passing while being trans, as well as her experience transitioning publicly while being a teacher in Davis County Utah. She also talks about dealing with church membership restrictions since transitioning, while also having a firm testimony that she’s following her Heavenly Parents’ plan for her by helping people \u201con this side of the veil\u201d instead of keeping her temple recommend.<\/p>\n

Bree Borrowman has experienced gender incongruence for about fifty years and an experience in November of 2019 caused a \u201ccoming out\u201d. This has led to a more active role in the LGBTQIA community with a focus on transgender issues. Through this experience, Bree has come to realize and accept who she really is, the love of our Heavenly Parents and our Savior, and to appreciate and love the diversity of all people. Bree found a lifeline through the love and support of her spouse Kit and the wonderful people in the LGBTQIA community.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[24],"class_list":["post-511","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-transgender-woman"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/511","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=511"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/511\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":512,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/511\/revisions\/512"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=511"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=511"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=511"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}