{"id":506,"date":"2022-12-12T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2022-12-12T07:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/?p=506"},"modified":"2022-12-12T09:36:26","modified_gmt":"2022-12-12T16:36:26","slug":"laura-skaggs-she-her","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/2022\/12\/12\/laura-skaggs-she-her\/","title":{"rendered":"Laura Skaggs (she\/her)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Colette:<\/strong> Hello and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, gender queer, and intersex experiences. I’m Colette and my pronouns are she\/her.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> And I’m Kate, my pronouns are they\/them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Today we’re interviewing Laura Skaggs and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jump into that, we wanted to start off by seeing what brought us Queer Joy this week. So Kate, what brought you Queer Joy this week?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Oh my goodness. I am working on a dissertation and also, applying for a job, so I’m, I’m trying to be like kind of secretive about that, but also it’s a job that is just like, just applying for it and writing about the things that I’m doing and writing about my queerness into this job application is just very empowering.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I sent out my CV to have [00:01:00] somebody review for me and they were like, my, my title says Kate Mower, like any normal CV And the editor put they them next to it and I was like, Oh, oh my goodness. Yeah. Like, I didn’t even think to do that. Awesome. So like, it’s been a very empowering experience to try to write about activism, write about Called to Queer and all the things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> That’s so cool. I’m glad that you’re able to show up as your full self in this application process, cuz I know that’s one thing that sometimes we struggle with as queer people is how much do I show up as myself? Is it safe to show up as myself? And I know with this particular job, I think that’s a total advantage for you to be like, Yeah, look at my life experience and what I’d bring to this. So that’s so cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Okay. Colette.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> My queer joy is also a little bit of queer pain, but queer joy. So we’re [00:02:00] recording this on November 7th, and so that’s just a couple days after the seventh anniversary of the policy of exclusion on November 5th that the church did. And so that day I spent the entire day with my girlfriend. It was a Saturday and we just had so much fun together. But the whole time I was thinking about this part of church history and how we’re still living in the fallout of this and how it kind of leaves some of us in queer relationships in weird spots because as Kate posted out on their stories or on their post<\/a> that there’s no nothing that has clarified what queer couples are since the apostates was taken out of the handbook.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But I was spending all day with my girlfriend and then I posted about it<\/a> and I posted kind of about Kate’s thoughts, but also just like, where does that leave us? And posted like nine pictures of me and my girlfriend from the past couple months that we’ve been dating. And that was the first time I was showing pictures of her in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And just the [00:03:00] response and people seeing the queer joy in the pictures and being like, Yeah, you are happy. I’m sorry you’re in this situation. So yeah, it was some queer pain reflecting on that, but just so much queer joy with where I’m at now and the support of people around me has been really cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Oh my goodness. I did not realize that post was the first time that you had posted together. Like, that’s a big deal. Whew,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> it. I was like, I hope I’m not jinxing anything, but we’re still together. It’s good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> No, I mean, it’s a big deal to, to like that, that conscious choice to do that is, it’s nerve wracking, but then when you’re getting the feedback from people yeah, no, that, that’s really cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah. Some people even said Queer Joy and I’m like, I know, right? . So that was fun to see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> How about you, Laura? We’d love to hear some queer joy from you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. I, this was one of the first years that my mind wasn’t so centered on the anniversary of the policy. And I was thinking a lot more [00:04:00] about this People magazine article<\/a> that David Archuleta, this interview that he did. And I’ve known where David’s story is at more recently because he’s been sharing and I got to go hear him speak about a month ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But to see him share that on that broad scale, both the background of his journey and, and obviously the pain that led him to stepping away from the church, but the sense of being loved and supported by God in his journey and to say that so confidently and publicly and to put his mental health first and trust his own experiences and his own spiritual path. To me that, that’s so empowering to so many people to, to hear a credible person share a story that’s very credible and for him to trust his own relationship with God, like, that’s, that’s awesome. I mean, obviously we can talk about all of the, paradoxes and sad things about what that means to [00:05:00] have to move forward without the support of your community. And without being believed, by your community when you, when so many of us have been, faithful and, and sincere and honest in our journeys. But yeah, I, I love seeing him walk forward and I, I love the idea of, of other people feeling empowered to, to do the same thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> I love that, and that’s such a huge part of why Kate and I have this podcast is because we know the power in storytelling and in sharing stories and being vulnerable. Cause it is scary to share stories when you might be judged or outcast from your community. And I know that you’ve had to take a step back from sharing your story and so we’re so honored that you were willing to come on here so we can hear what’s been going on in the life of Laura. And to use your story to help others realize they’re not alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah, thanks. Sometimes we just have to live our stories for a while before we wanna tell anymore of<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Oh, hundred percent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> I’ve been at, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think this could be a [00:06:00] good spot to introduce readers to your Queer Mormon story. Some of them may have heard you awhile ago, telling where you were at then, but if you just kind of wanna give an overview of your Queer Mormon story and where you’re at now, and then we can just go from there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Okay. Yeah. I, as I’ve thought about this, I wanna start a little further back than maybe I normally have in sharing my story. Just to go a little deeper. So like a lot of us, I, I grew up in a super devout LDS family in Southern California. My, my grandfather was actually a patriarch, and so I remember him giving me my patriarchal blessing when I was 14. And at the time, it included a couple of things that in hindsight are really meaningful to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

One was like, God has this really important mission for you and if you stay close to God, he’ll tell you what it is and it’s really important that you do that. And so I always grew up with like a lot of us do, this sense of, of like mission and purpose and, [00:07:00] and how important it was to stay close to God, to find out what, what God would want me to do in my life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then another part of my patriarchal blessing was that you would get married and that there would be problems in your marriage. And I remember as a young person, like going like, What’s gonna be wrong with my husband? You know, what’s gonna be wrong? Like, not, you know, In hindsight of course, it’s like problems in my marriage, like, yeah, cuz I’m gay and he’s straight and that’s, that is a problem, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I’m sort of like foretelling all of these things. But I think that’s an interesting place to start because it sort of like sets the stage for some things that happen later in my life. And by the time I was 25, I was temple married while closeted gay. I had had one child. And I was already questioning like really heavily questioning [00:08:00] church issues just around gender and where women were within the church. And feeling like that space was an unequal, diminished space and, and feeling uncomfortable with that and had been for years, but feeling more empowered to question it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I had spent like, I was 25 by then, I had spent the last decade, really praying about that initial part in my blessing of like, what is it that I’m supposed to do in this life, god? What is it that you want me to accomplish and help me understand what my path is. And when I was 25 years old, in the middle of this faith crisis, I got a one word answer and it was homosexuality.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I’m thinking like, I’ve buried that. I’ve buried that long time ago. And so I didn’t really understand it at all. I just kind of kept it in my heart. There was not any direction with it. And then it was three years later that Prop eight happened in California. And I really thought because I [00:09:00] was Temple married, because I had always been super devout in the church, I really thought that, oh my gosh, like the prophets asking people to stand up for traditional marriage and like, Maybe I’m supposed to come out and stand up for the position of the church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so I was like in the ready, like, I’ve been waiting my whole life to do whatever you want me to do, God. I’ll stand up and put myself out there as a temple married, devout person, and I did this and everyone else can do it too. And so I waited for, I don’t know the spiritual impression or to, to get involved. And it was like crickets. It was just like silence. It was like nothing. And instead I just started internalizing that debate. the toxicity of that debate of the attacks on queer people Mormonism, like debating within itself about, what their arguments should be against gay marriage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it was like br everything that I buried, [00:10:00] it was just bringing it all up. And I couldn’t sleep at night. I was having headaches. Resurfacing everything that I had tried to, to bury. And I remember after that time when it was all brought up to the surface and I was really, psychologically and even physically unwell, I had impression go back to school and be a therapist. I came out, I got impression to come out in grad school. And after I had gotten sort of comfortable with being out amongst my peers, I got impression to come out in church. And that’s what I did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that was a decade ago that I came out in church. Nobody was coming out in church back then. It was like, it felt insane to do it. And from the moment that I came out, it was so vulnerable, so scary. And I knew like all I wanted in the whole wide world was somehow to be understood and loved by my community.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it was a totally different [00:11:00] perspective being on the other side. And just drop like all the privilege that I had built up with being a temple married, mother, recommend holder, BYU grad, and now in school to be a marriage and family therapist. Whatever privilege any of that afforded me, the moment I said I was gay. I was now like this big question mark in my community where people were afraid of me, where people were trying to control me or keep me from saying that. Like, we don’t want you saying that anywhere. We’re not sure what this means. Questioning everything about me and the vulnerability of that. Just stepping into that identity was absolutely traumatic .<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And certainly like gradually after that time I noticed myself, anytime I’d walk into church, I’d have like, major, major anxiety. I would like relive the hurtful things that people said or, the ways in which my family was not terribly [00:12:00] supportive at that time around me coming out. And so I developed a lot of trauma symptoms during that time. And I was also in my therapist training working with like all PTSD victims, like sexual assault or domestic violence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I remember like sitting one day with a client that I was working with as an intern. and she’s like going through all her symptoms. You know, like the nightmares, the flashbacks, the sleeplessness, the inability to just like even be like fully present in the moment because you’re all always on that hypervigilant kind of alert cuz you’re afraid.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I had this moment where I’m like, Oh my gosh, I have every single one of those symptoms since coming out in my community, to my family, and to my church. And so that really attuned me and my work to [00:13:00] spiritual and emotional trauma at the intersection of these identities. And so that really guided the kind of lens and advocacy that I did within the church moving forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I, I remember like after a year of being out in church. Like I had spoken up about it over the pulpit, like multiple times. I remember like even going to the temple and like I had gone with some gay friends and we had come out to like the temple workers and I had like spoken at a baptism of someone who was gay and who joined the church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Messy long story, but like all of a sudden I’m coming out at a baptism, like all the places that I was never allowed to say that I’m gay. All the places that are supposed to be the most sacred and it’s the most taboo. I had spent a year just being visible and it wore me out. Like it, it broke me down because it was never safe, you know? it was always [00:14:00] like, there would be some people who would be like, happy to, have you more visible and, and like want to imagine the church was more inclusive and, and welcoming of, of diversity. And always people who were like, Why in the world would you ever talk about your sin? you know, that was the lens, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so I was, I was still temple married at the time. I end up for my then husband’s work. I end up in Africa because he was studying to be a cultural anthropologist. And it was this relief because I could step, like I was in Ethiopia and so there was no LDS church in where the part that we were. And so it was like I could step away without the judgment or embarrassment or criticism. I could step away and sort of breathe and try to get [00:15:00] my bearings after having this tumultuous year of, of being out in a church where nobody felt like nobody was out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I, I just remember going like, Okay, here I am. Like I followed these spiritual impressions. I am totally traumatized. Like I’m, I’m hurting inside. I, I’m, I don’t wanna go back in those doors, even though I love the teachings of Jesus. Like, this is such an unsafe place for me. And also I’d had experiences, during that time, like in my own connections with God, kind of how David Archuleta talked about where like, I’m feeling permission to go back to ask God for myself, Well, what do you think about this part of me? And God’s like, this part of you is good. This part of you is, has all this beautiful capacity. And this part of you is not antithetical to like a spiritual life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so I’m like, I’m like, [00:16:00] where the heck am I? I’m still temple married, I got this answer and I have all this trauma. And I remember at that time that in Ethiopia, like there is a church that claims to have the arc of the covenant, like the original, House of, of the 10 Commandments. And every year all of the churches there, they all have replicas of the arc. And every year they have this holiday where they bring out these replicas of the arc and they’re covered and there’s this procession and everyone dresses in white. And it’s sort of honoring of like God’s commitment to his people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And at the time, I’ve got two little kids and I’m, and we’re gonna go to this ritual there in, in Ethiopia and. I, I start trying to explain to them like, they’re like five and seven, and I start trying to explain to them who Moses was. [00:17:00] And I start telling them, and I’m in the middle of my messy, paradoxical learning and growth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I start telling ’em, I was like, Well, Moses is this person who was born in a in a time where it wasn’t safe for him and his people. Like there was all of this threat and harm for him to be who he was. And so, like a loving parent hides him and he grows up in privilege. But when he’s older, he starts to see, God shows him, who he really is. And he starts to see all the harm being done to his people. And once his eyes are open, his life is never the same.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I start to just sob because I’m realizing in that moment, like [00:18:00] the spirit is teaching me and helping me understand what my life and what my journey is and why I, you know, the first half of my life is just absorbing a privileged straight life out of survival because it is not safe to be queer in my community. But now that I am older, God has decided I’m ready and strong enough to start seeing and then to use whatever privilege I have to start advocating, Hey, you gotta let my people go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There was so many paradigm shifts for me. But that’s, that was just like a huge pivot point for me. And I, and I think of that story arc when I sit with queer Mormons now, because I just see it over and over and over again. We hide in our communities. We pretend to be straight, we even believe ourselves to be straight. We absorb that privilege out of survival and safety. And then we come to a point [00:19:00] where we start to see like, Oh, we, we are queer. We are part of the class of people that we’ve been taught to oppress and to harm. And then most of us have, these moments of identity dissonance and crisis. And of course for Moses it was first, like he went into fight and then he went into flight like he ran, he literally like just ran away. Which to me is so validating cuz that’s like most of us, we don’t know what to do with this in the beginning of like, this is so overwhelming to, to be queer in a community that is actively harming and oppressing. And ultimately, like a lot of us, Moses has his own experience with God and that is an empowering one. And then he goes back and he tries to use whatever privilege he has to say, Hey, Things need [00:20:00] to change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so that’s what I did. I did that for a lot of years. I, I, I showed up and I, tried to, educate people and be visible and tried to, you know, move people away from the repairative therapy mentality into, more of an affirming multicultural approach to therapy. We can’t change people. We have to, you know, accept this is a biological trait, honoring people’s agency, family acceptance, all stuff around trying to reshape things. Whatever I could accomplish, like from the inside.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But ultimately, I myself wasn’t safe. And I myself, ultimately, like my marriage could not be sustained. I was in a lot of pain. And that’s probably like a much longer story. But, I did decide to divorce and that was about two years ago now. And I’ve also withdrawn my membership from the church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so that to me, like I’m still using that Moses story as a [00:21:00] metaphor. And so I’m sort of in Exodus, or I’ve done Exodus and I’m now sort of in this wilderness and I’m trying to not just build golden calves. Like I’m trying to live my life and gather mana and, travel to somewhere beautiful and connect with God in spiritual sovereignty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so that’s still a metaphor that’s shaping how I think about, again, the story arc of all queer Mormons of, what does it mean at times to wrestle with our identities? What does it mean at times to speak up within our communities and advocate for our people? What does it mean to have to leave that community in Exodus for safety? Because they’re not willing to create a safe space for us. And what does it mean then to be in a new wilderness and to travel towards, a, a sort of hypothetical promise land and to connect with God independent [00:22:00] of a big system or institution or, or dominant culture around us? To sort of be out on our own?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, long story, but that’s kind of the way I think about things,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> It’s great story. Got goosebumps multiple times, maybe cried a little bit. For sure cried a little bit. But goosebumps multiple times like that is an empowering and excite. It’s, I don’t know, it’s like all of the things, you get all of the feelings from it, especially like Ethiopia. I don’t think that people, there are some people who won’t know where Ethiopia is. Ethiopia is the east side of Africa. It’s not that far from the Moses story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> No, it’s not. I mean, it’s, it’s all sort of, it’s all sort of there and it all feels a little, a little, little epic<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> yeah, like, like to go to Ethiopia to have this experience is quite remarkable. But I think I’d like to go back to 2012 [00:23:00] cuz I assume that’s the year that you first came out,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> said years ago?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> 2012 is the first year for people who don’t know the first year of the Mormon and gay website, if I’m correct. Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. And literally, like that’s, that’s how I tried to convince people that I had permission to be even be visible. I remember, well, I had come out, I had come out in my home ward before, right before that came out. But then in like the ward where I grew up. And then I came out in the ward where I was currently living, I was in San Diego and I was like, I wanna bear my testimony. And the church recently put out this website about being Mormon and gay. And I’m happy about that because that is, that is me. Like, I am Mormon and gay and I am grateful for this happening. So it was, it was trying to sort of move with that wave, or like trying to take it as some sort of invitation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> It was a wave.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> [00:24:00] Queer people were way more aware of that website than the leaders were. So they were like, What are you talk, you know, most people are like, What are you talking about? Are you making this up? Why? Why do you think you can say gay over the pulpit? It was just so, it was just so out of the norm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> well it was a big deal. 2012 was a, a really pivotal shift. It’s interesting that you came out that you are having this experience in 2012, cuz I don’t think that people recognize how much of a shift this was for the Mormon church. That that you really weren’t allowed to do these things until that year. And so, to that was very captivating when you said that, that was the particular year.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. No, I think at, at that point, the church was still dichotomizing that if you said you were gay, you were sinning, and if you said, you were saying sex attracted, you were not sinning, but you were struggling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Neither, Neither had a good connotation. Like no one wanted to be seen as this pitiful struggler, [00:25:00] and nobody wanted to be seen sinning. So, you didn’t have a lot of great options in terms of how your character was going to be colored by these discourses and have these negative ideas projected onto you by the lack of cultural understanding. So it was really vulnerable. It was awful actually. Like, oh my gosh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah, it’s no wonder that you had PTSD symptoms, especially if they’re touting you around, because I imagine, this is how, I imagine your experience from what you described. If you’re coming out in 2012, the church is making a point that we’re, we have this change. We’re going to be thinking about this problem quote unquote differently. And so you are kind of a spokesperson along that way to be invited to all of these places in 2012.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah, no, I was very conscious of the potential to be exploited. And very early on I had [00:26:00] people who wanted to exploit my story and say, you know, like, Right, like as we still see today, look, if so and so can be faithful and temple married, then you can too. And I, I was very careful not to let people use me in that way, but I couldn’t control if that’s what some people were thinking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But I, but it was this paradoxical sort of identity that like, okay, if I come out and, here I am keeping all the rules, maybe I can advocate for small things. Like love, like visibility and love and respect for agency. And that’s where I really started is just like, just this simple ask of like, no matter what people choose, can you show up with a Christ like love and not distance from them, not reject them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I’m going to say that as someone who’s, who’s keeping all of these, current teachings and can that humanize the people that we’ve spent a decade, especially in my state of California decades, if we’re being really [00:27:00] honest, attacking and politicizing and demonizing. So that was, that was sort of the cultural sort of flavor that I stepped into was trying to reshape things after a very, very harmful contentious years of, of political action against same-sex marriage in California.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Do you know what year Prop 22 was?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> That would’ve been, I wanna say<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> think it was 2000.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> 2000 because I, I graduated in 1998 and I, I think it was right before I left the wait for college, and I think it was 2000.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah, I think so too. So you had gone through this as well through Prop 22, through 8.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. And I had had this moment where I had admitted to myself that I wasn’t straight, but I couldn’t admit anything else, if that makes sense. And I was terrified about it. And I actually wanted, I, I had this moment where I [00:28:00] really wanted to die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then I had sort of zipped all that back up. I had decided to go away to BYU Idaho, Ricks at the time, cuz I’m that old. Um, And almost like I need to go to the nunnery. Like, I like going to the convent, like running away from myself. But in between sort of that experience of, of momentary suicidality and going away to school, it was that fall that they were canvassing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I actually went around door to.door with some young single adults to get this petition signed. I was so disconnected from what that meant for me. I, I was just so, so Mormon that I didn’t even, I mean, I had been burying my queerness since I was a kid. I grew up in the eighties. You didn’t come out, you didn’t, you didn’t break the gender binary. So, yeah,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Well, in going along with that, I am curious, you said you did realize you were queer, well, you realized you weren’t straight. [00:29:00] Like when did you start having that realization that you then shoved down to deal with years later?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> I mean, I, I had crushes on girls like as soon as puberty started, but even like, I, I had kind of blocked the experience out because from the time I, I have this memory that I can. Worked my way back to when I was four, where a neighbor girl wanted me and my sister to play Barbie’s with her. And it was like Barbie and Ken. And I remember just freezing and feeling like I was doing something really, really wrong to like, essentially I was supposed to be playing heterosexuality. I was supposed to be like doing that. And I felt so wrong. I felt so averse. I felt like I was just doing something that was not me, and I just froze.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I remember watching my sister and this little neighbor friend play, and then I remember watching my brother and his friend, like darting through the house with toy guns and I’m just like, I, I don’t fit [00:30:00] there and I don’t fit here. And I’m just having this little four year old existential, like I don’t fit anywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And feeling like an outsider, like I don’t belong from that little age. And my mother remembers this time as like me going into depression and them not knowing what happened to me and going to my little kindergarten teacher and asking like, Did something happen? Or they’re like, Oh my gosh, was she abused or something? I wasn’t abused. I like, I just did not have words at that time to talk about what was going on for me. And so my parents, they just took turns, like reading books to me and taking me on walks and giving me attention without really ever knowing and me never really being able to put words to all of that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But, you know, I like a lot of queer kids, my play and my gender expression was like, non stereotypical. So I was just [00:31:00] drawn more to stereotypically little boy things. And in my dress, I, didn’t wanna wear pink, I didn’t wanna purple, I didn’t wanna wear sparkles, I didn’t wanna wear lace. And so I was able to like articulate that at least to my parents. And I think they were so worried about me. They were like my, I remember my mom going Kmart, there’s no Kmart anymore. My mom going to Kmart and going a little boy section and buying me all these like, primary color tank tops and like Bermuda shorts so that I didn’t have to wear these girly clothes. And I was just content and happy and went into the first grade just feeling all like my little self.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so, yeah, like I, I kind of just moved forward through the elementary school years, but when I hit puberty, it was very clear very early on, that my crushes all started to be on girls and then I’m starting to hide that. And then at like by 15, I, I totally fell for one of my good friends, but I’m, I’m just totally closeted. Like nobody came out. That’s not what people did back then, you know. [00:32:00] I watch kids now and they just, they come out and they date and it’s so normal for them. And I I, that I just held it all and I was miserable inside.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I, I, I basically just built up a lot of shame and a lot of isolation around my experience and kept burying it, and kept burying it, and kept burying it. And then by the time I got to, 18, 19, it was, I, I know I’m not straight. God, I have this problem and I spent, huh Like when I, when I was at BYU Idaho, those like years of like 20, like 19, 20 year old years, I would go to a study room, lock the door every day, and I, and pray away the gay. I didn’t know that a million people before me had, had tried this or done this. It was just so instinctive. I would go into this study room, I would read my scriptures and I’d cry and I’d pray for like hours sometimes, day after day after day, like God, helped me align my heart to your will. Cuz my [00:33:00] heart wants to marry my, my cute lady friend, you know. And I’ve been obviously like all of us, taught that was, that was evil.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Where did you meet your husband?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> So I had come home from Rick’s and was kind of in between transferring to BYU and he had come home from his mission. And so we met there and then we both were going back up to school here in Utah. So we dated and then got married and, and he was, he was the most gentle, kind, loving person that I’d ever met. Really. He was so caring. And by that time I just, I gravitated towards that deeply. this gentle, loving, caring person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And at the time the teaching was, I remember being at BYU and like they gave us this talk that Elder Oaks had written, put in the Ensign where it just basically said, same sex attraction is akin to people who might [00:34:00] have a, a disposition towards alcoholism. And it’s this tendency, but you just put it in the background and, and if you can put it in the background and just fall in love with someone who’s straight, then you can just go forward like everyone else. Like it’s, it, it will be fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so I was like, Oh, good. I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna be like an alcoholic. I don’t wanna be sinful. Like, here’s my answer. And so,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> you remember that? You remember that talk in that moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> I remember getting that talk in a social work class. It was crazy because the social work teacher was like, We’re gonna talk about, same sex attraction. And he hands us two things and like, one is this printout of this article and another is a pamphlet for Evergreen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> No way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> And I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I’m so scared that if I ever tell anyone that this is something that I struggle with, that they will send me to, to fix [00:35:00] it camp and like label me as a problem. And just like the shame of it. And I was so scared of someone labeling me as, as like sinful or having a problem. And I remember in that moment cuz I’d already been like working really hard at praying away the gay. And I remember going again, I will handle this myself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I took that article and I think it just gave me more, I guess, more sense of like a blueprint of what it was that people like me were supposed to do. We were supposed to, put off these temptations. get married in the temple and put it in the background and go forward like everything else was fine. And guess what? it did that. But it was not, it was not fine. And it was, we did not go forward like everyone else. We went forward with a lot of pain, even though I married [00:36:00] a, like the, the best of men.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And in fact, he was the first person who I came out to finally, after we were married. Because again, if it’s just this tendency and you’re just supposed to put it in the background cuz it’s not really real and like why would you tell anybody? Why would you tell anybody? I had never acted on it. I had never done it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so there was all these messages, not to integrate this part of you into your identity. And so it was only because I was in this like relationship where I trusted this person and I was like, Actually, this is this. I finally feel safe enough to tell another human being. And I remember just breaking down into an absolute puddle of, of pain and shame that I had, stored up all these [00:37:00] years. And for the first time, hearing another human say, there’s nothing wrong with you. there’s nothing about you that needs to change. You’re lovable exactly as who you are. And all these affirming messages that I didn’t know how to get anywhere at that time. Like they, I didn’t hear them from anywhere in my world, but I found in my straight marriage, I don’t understand it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But again, that story of Moses helps me understand my life of like, again, just hiding in a privileged space, until we gradually understand ourselves and start grappling with the paradox and the immenseness of queer oppression, our own oppression in our community.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I think it’s really important that you do remember receiving [00:38:00] exactly where you received this message, what it contained, all of those sorts of things because it really was a prescription. This is what you were supposed to do to get over this quote unquote, and or to be cured of this quote unquote, and you called it a blueprint. That is exactly what it was intended to be, is this blueprint. And I feel very strongly and passionately about This is going to cause ripple effects in many families for a long time, this prescription. But just to hear you say that and know that you did have, I believe that you did have like this caring husband who’s also impacted by this, the, this church made a decision to talk about something they didn’t actually know about, and it impacted, it’s actually going to impact generations now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Right. And I think about it now and after all sifting through all the complexity in a very long [00:39:00] journey, I’m able to say with clarity that the leaders of the church are guilty of the sin of bearing false witness, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Goosebumps again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> when God had to only choose 10 commandments, this was on that list. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Why? Why? I don’t think, I mean, we could spend years unpacking how false assumptions, right? I mean, talk to people of color, like as a starting point, right? Why bearing a false witness about another human or a group of humans is so wrong and so hurtful and so impactful. And yet that has, that is what has happened to all of us over and over and over again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then we try to bear a witness of our own [00:40:00] experience. Like back to David Archuleta right? A witness of when I tried to follow your path, your witness, I almost died. I, my body wanted to leave the planet. That was the fruits of that. And then to like go to God and then have God come, into my heart or into so many queer people’s heart and say, I’m your maker and we’re good and this part of you is valuable, has beautiful capacity. You can build a beautiful relationship with it. And I will take joy in that with you. And we try to give our witness of all of this. And it’s a firsthand witness and it’s rejected over and over and over again. And a false witness continues to to be [00:41:00] given.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And this is something I just think about over and over and over again of like, if we were in a court of law, what kind of witnesses would be admissable? It’s either firsthand witnesses, right? People who’ve experienced something with their own eyes and their own bodies and their own senses, or it’s expert witnesses, people who spend their lives like knowing everything about a topic and then speaking intelligently about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then everything else is considered hearsay. Like you just heard it somewhere and then you repeated it. And that’s not admissible. And that’s what’s happening in our community. It’s like we have this tradition. You heard it, so you, you heard it from someone else and you heard it from someone else, and it was passed down to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It’s not in the scriptures. Jesus never said anything about gay marriage or homosexuality. It’s not even, it’s not in the Book of Mormon. [00:42:00] But we have all these traditions in the way we’ve interpreted scriptures. And so we’re gonna keep repeating that and we’re gonna ignore firsthand witnesses. We’re gonna ignore expert witnesses, and we’re gonna posture ourself as the witness, even though we are spouting hearsay.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And every decade or every couple of decades, there’s this whole slew of people who come back and say, Yeah, I was listening to you. Or, you know, that advice that you gave, or, these things that you said, or how you called it the sin next to murder, or how you said people should not introduce gay people who are out to their friends. That was something that was said, during Prop A, like, well, we won’t totally reject you, but we won’t introduce you to our friends. Like, what a awful crap thing to say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Or, or even like decades ago, Elder Oaks, the first time he ever wrote about same sex marriage, warning the church about it in that original document, it’s saying, this is going to bring [00:43:00] about, if this happens, this is gonna depopulate the planet. This sounds nuts now. Again, hearsay. And yet these are people who’ve postured as expert witnesses when they are not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And now all of us have, incurred the fallout. And of course, worst case scenario, there are those of us who are not here. And I feel like it’s important to at least, acknowledge that that has been, in the worst, most awful cases, the fallout of the bearing of a false witness. And it is a sin.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> You’re very wise<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> I’m, I’m very adamant I’m over here. Just I wanna be empathetic and compassionate about where all the, the misunderstandings and, and like, I’m not, I’m not out to condemn anyone, but I’m not, I, I’m also not okay with sort of sidestepping the realities of how this has profoundly hurt people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah. Your imagery [00:44:00] though, and the way that you’re talking about both the Moses story and talking about bear false witness, these are things I think I know I will come back to. I think anybody listening will come back to this over and over again and think, Yeah, I relate to that. And that is, I feel that in my bones, like I’d get goosebumps hearing these things, right? Like we know and we’ve been taught in Mormonism, that is a confirmation of the spirit, listening to you speak to me, in the language that I grew up in, is a confirmation of the spirit that way you’re speaking to me is truth, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Well, I, I know for me, like part, again, part of why I wanted to start speaking again is this sense, in my work as a therapist, I don’t testify. That is not what therapists do. I don’t say, Well, I know God loves you and that God approves of you doing da da. That no, that’s what I do when I sit with people is I facilitate their experience, their story and try to [00:45:00] empower them along their way and create a safe space. And I get to be witness to that beautiful work. Not the other way around. Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> But one of the most common places people get stuck is not being able to imagine a God that can walk with them into the path that they actually feel is like healthy and life giving to them. And also people get stuck in well if I, if I walk away from the church, all of the stories that I have in my head is that that means I’m letting go of an iron rod or I’m walking into a midst of darkness, or I’m a prodigal son, or I’m it’s some negative archetype of fallenness associated with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I think, stepping back from that role, it feels really, really important for me to say, absolutely as one person, one witness, which is all any of us can give, right? To say my experience, whatever, that, whatever that beautiful feeling is, that when that light [00:46:00] touches my heart, that I have been taught all my life and I do believe is divine communication from God or from light, or I don’t, I don’t pretend to understand all of it, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But that’s what speaks into my heart. And when that comes, that light cares deeply about my queerness and about leading me into understanding, safety, connection, happiness. And also, the scriptures are full of stories. Not just about people having to leave their religious community because, or leaving their religious community cuz they’re fallen, but it’s full of stories of people leaving the chosen people or the religious community because it was not safe for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that is how the Book of Mormon starts, with Lehi having to leave because it’s not safe because God tells him something about the [00:47:00] way the community needs to change. And guess what? They’re not interested in hearing that. Imagine that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Again, back to David Archuleta, he gets his answer. He goes to the church leaders, I’ll just tell them that this is what happened. And then they’ll understand, you know? It is like cute David. But we’ve all tried in one way or another to go back to our community and then it’s rejected and we’re rejected and there’s no safe place for us. And then, like Lehi, the answer becomes, Okay, well. Take your personal relationship with God, take the scriptures that matter to you, take your people and walk into a wilderness and I’ll, I’ll lead you to build a beautiful life somewhere else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And heck, I mean, that’s the story of Jesus going home to Nazareth, right? Saying, I’m here to sort of declare my mission. And everyone’s like, aren’t you just Joseph’s kid? Like, how about we take you and throw you off a cliff? And [00:48:00] this is like his home ward and they don’t want him, and we don’t have any record in the scriptures of him ever going back, but he goes somewhere else and he’s teaching in power and in truth, that’s the next scripture we have about what he’s doing after that experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So I’m always wanting, I guess, people in a broader sense to start connecting with the idea that God can communicate with you in affirming ways about your queerness. And that sometimes when you have to take a different path based on that light that you receive, that there are just as many narratives about people having to leave chosen communities because it wasn’t safe for them as there are scriptures about people who are, walking away from light because they just want to, eat, drink, and be merry and sin. And it’s just like, it’s very rare that I sit with queer people and that that’s their motivation or that’s what they’re struggling with. That’s just not the story [00:49:00] arc that I see over and over and over amongst these, beautifully faithful latter day saints. It’s just not. But there is a safety issue.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Oh, a hundred percent. And I got chills and goosebumps that whole time you were speaking because I think both Kate and I are like, Yep, we get that story. Like that’s been our experience. And I know for me it was wrestling for the longest time about would God rather have me stay in the church and active and literally be wanting to die, or would God want me to step away from my mental health and live? Even if it’s not as an active member. and I receive very clear confirmation that God wants me to live. And so this analogy that you’re giving has given me such a good framework to frame my narrative around that now. So thank you so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. I want people to be able to imagine, again, [00:50:00] that there is this whole other story arc. God who sees the oppression of his people. God who cares about it. A God who leads people, away from harm into safety, into a wilderness. And that story arc is all over the scriptures.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And of course, what all of us really want, we want our community to reshape. No one wants to have to leave the party. And so there’s so much grief and trauma in being a spiritual refugee initially, right? and we all wrestle with that. I don’t wanna minimize how disorienting and painful that transition is, and it’s certainly been for me. And yet, somewhere along the way, you, you are in a new place, You are in a wilderness where this all this open space and all this freedom to, to rebuild a life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> And maybe we could [00:51:00] talk about that, about your journey into the wilderness and how you dealt with that. That’s kind of the next point of your story, is you’ve created a new, a new life for yourself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, I’m still in the process of it, so I don’t pretend to be an expert on it, but the, the wonderful thing about being a therapist is that you get to watch so many people, or like, I’ve had the privilege of watching so many people take the same journey that I, you know, or some similar journey long before me. Before I’ve taken it. Like I literally have so many people in my head going, I remember when they were at this point, and man, they, they really hit a wall and I’m hitting that wall. But then they walked forward, I’m gonna walk forward. Like, it was such a gift.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But yeah, I think I, I, I saw this in myself and I saw this in my clients over and over again, that when you are trying to reclaim your own mind and your own spirit from this old paradigm that you [00:52:00] know has hurt you, like you have new light telling you a new story, a beautiful story about who you are as a queer person, but you also have years of being taught something really dark about yourself, and that’s all woven into all the spiritual stories that we’ve ever grown up with, right? It’s all, it’s all intermixed. And so it is very messy to untease and unweave. And, I spent years before I, I left, unteasing and weaving it. And again, when I finally decided to withdraw my, my membership and fully leave because I didn’t wanna live in fear. Like I’ve just, I’ve seen again, so many clients where, two weeks after their wedding, they’re getting a, a letter to come in for a disciplinary counsel as like, a wedding gift. I mean, it’s disturbing. It’s not I, you know, or people saying, Gosh, I’m worried they’re gonna come after me and should I withdraw my membership? And then they’re going through like a faith transition while they’re trying to plan a wedding or, wondering about that on their honeymoon. I’m like, I’m not doing [00:53:00] that. I’m doing this all at once. We’re, we’re taking care of this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But that metaphor of walking into the wilderness, I really did find myself gravitating towards nature and being outdoors. And all over spiritual traditions the metaphors that they use are like, they’re all rooted in nature, like pointing to the mustard seed and to the the seasons or to something about how, how a plant grows or, or being still. And so these were the places that I gravitated to, you know, to go sit by the river, to go up into the mountains just to be still and, and commune and reclaim my own spirit more. And connect with what I feel like God’s been trying to teach me in so many ways the whole time, which is You are lovable as you. And if the commandment is to love your neighbors yourself, part of that is like, you gotta know how to love yourself. Like [00:54:00] it’s, it’s built in to those first commandments, like love your neighbor as yourself. So you’re supposed to love yourself. So you just love your neighbor and you’re supposed to love God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well, okay, let’s, let’s, let’s sit with all of that. And in this moment, what does it mean to love myself after a lifetime of living within a community where you’re taught to bury a very significant part of yourself and to sort of let the layers of that start to release that and let go, and just get rooted more in that, in that love and that direct connection with God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And there’s a lot that’s happened, but something that I think about a lot more recently cuz I, I, I went and revisited this Moses story more on the other, like, what happens, like all the movies that are made about Moses is like the big exodus and that’s like the end, right? It’s like, that’s, that’s where the movies usually sort of like drop off. And we sort of forget about [00:55:00] what happens more after.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But the part that has stood out to me more recently is that it’s only after that deliverance that like God comes back and is like, okay. Now that we’ve been through all this, like, do you, do you actually want to choose me as your God?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And as a therapist, I’m like, that is so trauma informed to like, to a, because all of us have been victims of, like, God has been used as a weapon against all of us queer people. Like we’ve all been beaten over the head with God talk. About how awful it is to be us. And if we walk into, step into our identities or relationships associated with our identities, that we will be cutting ourselves off from light and from God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[00:56:00] And so when I think now, after sort of making that exodus and then this, reflecting on what does it mean after getting out of that whole crazy system where I was harmed, and to sit with myself and ask myself, do I still want a relationship with God? And that I get a choice about that. And that I get to like, again, connect and decide which voice that has come through me is God, and which voices are not, and which voice I wanna choose to follow at this point in my life after I have totally gotten myself out of this crazy experience of, of harm and an institution that, you know, I have mixed feelings about it, of course. I, I love, and I love a lot of people who are still involved in it. It’s not black and white, but certainly it feels important to acknowledge that it on the queer front has been very harmful and it’s not safe. And I don’t know if it will be in my lifetime.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But to come [00:57:00] back and really be allowed to ask myself that question, who is God? Do I want a relationship with that God? And what does that look like now? For me, the answer that I’ve come to is yes, I want that relationship and I, I want to for that to be one that is deinstitutionalized and one that like, is rooted in what shows up in my own heart and my own moral compass and my own sense of light and communication with that being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But the idea that you get to choose that and that that’s a question and that God would care about, not just assuming that cuz I delivered you or because like, um, because I’m so powerful or because that’s what you should do, that that’s what’s happening now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So that’s something that I think about now and it is something that I value and I wanna keep talking about, because again, when I think of people that I work with who are at their most suicidal, it’s because they cannot [00:58:00] imagine a God who would walk with them. And I wanna say, You know what, I’m just one person, but I’m gonna give one little witness. And I, I do believe in that God, I believe in the God who will walk with us into safety, into a new life and still be with us and who we deeply matter to. And that we have choice about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Again, so many chills and goosebumps listening to you give that witness, and I know Kate and I have received that as well for our journeys, and so thank you for bearing witness for those who need to hear that. I know those are hard won witnesses to get to this point. You don’t go from being a closeted, not even having words, four year old to someone who can speak this powerfully without a lot of pain and trauma. And so thank you for your openness and sharing this to show people is [00:59:00] possible. It’s hard. It’s a battle to get there, but thank you so<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. No, I mean, I wouldn’t wanna minimize the, the difficulty or make light of any of the difficulty. And I think the collective pain that has been endured by this community is just It’s countless. Really. We can’t, we It’s unquantifiable. That’s what I wanna say. And yet I, I think reclaiming spirituality after it’s been so misused and oppressed is a huge part of many of our healing at certain points along the way. So I feel like it’s worth talking about, even though it’s such a personal delicate thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> I totally agree and, and as you’re talking, this is something I don’t think we’ve explicitly talked about on the podcast before, but this might be a good time to mention this to, might validate some people. Have you heard about the dissertation research<\/a> that [01:00:00] Brian Williams Simmons did about PTSD among queer Mormons?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I’m sure. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> So I was like, it was like, it was like the year after I’d come out in church and Brian came to me and he was like, What should we study? And I was like, I just came out in church. I’m pretty sure we need to study trauma. And then he went and did it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> I didn’t know that part of the story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> No, no. And so like, yeah, when, like, I, So when that, so when that study finally came out, it was years before he actually was able to like do the research and get it published and luckily he was, you know, where they had some really amazing expertise in trauma guiding him and stuff and. and so I, I actually went with Brian to church headquarters when he presented it to the church public affairs<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> I didn’t know that part of the story either. I just knew the dissertation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> we want the inside scoop.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> and you know, it’s like three guys from public affairs. nobody like higher up than them. Three guys from like [01:01:00] public affairs sit there and watch Brian give a PowerPoint presentation on how like two thirds of us has trauma.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I tell my trauma story of coming out in church and how I’m a therapist now and sort of giving my firsthand witness of the data. They left with some printouts and nothing ever came of it, you know what I’m saying? Like, I, I’ve had the chance, like at different points just here and there to talk to people in the, higher echelons. And they’re always polite and, none of, none. I mean, I’ve never talked to an apostle or anything, but, people who are sort of in higher up positions and they’re always kind and polite and, and then nothing changes really. Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> And you’re right, nothing changes, but for me it was so I remember the first time I heard about this research and it was so validating as a queer person to hear. And so like, if nothing else, that was helpful cuz for those that don’t know, and we’ll link his dissertation in our transcript.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But he [01:02:00] found 278 participants that were recruited. The majority were raised in LDS family, and half indicated they still attend LDS services at least monthly. But the majority of participants, 89.2% likely met criteria for PTSD diagnosis related to their religious experiences. That just blew my mind to hear and it was so validating being like, Yeah, I am in a state of trauma at church because, and it’s a fascinating study and so it is heartbreaking to be like, How come change isn’t happening from the top, but was so validating as a queer person and seeing change people from the bottom up change trying to happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think you’re right. Who knows if it’ll happen our lifetime, but people are seeing the trauma that is happening to queer members.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah, no, and I mean, again, that comes back to like, an example of an expert witness and also a collective firsthand [01:03:00] witness of like, what is happening. And, half of that sample were people who were active in the church, queer people who were active in the church, and half of that sample were people who’d since stepped away.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

and it was very, even in terms of, whether people had stayed and stuck it out or people who’d left, people reporting this cluster of symptomology that associated with trauma and how many of us were suffering. And I, I know that particular data, that survey went around the year, it went around in 2016, the year after the policy had been implemented.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I think trauma was at a all time high after that. I mean, just everyone was harmed in that process. And there were so many reports of suicide at the time. It was, it was such a, an awful, awful time. So that data point, that snapshot is hugely significant. I mean, definitely guides my work to this day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And I, and again, I feel like it validated my own experience and continues to [01:04:00] validate people’s experience of like, why, why do I have the same symptomology as somebody who’s gone to war or who’s been in a domestic violence situation? Why, why am I so unwell that I can’t sleep at night or that I want to die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I mean, but we, we know how deeply we internalize the sort of threatening judgements of God that, at least that in the way that we’ve been told about it. And it, it is that traumatic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> It really, really is that traumatic. I mean, going back to your story earlier about the trauma in a Rick’s college class of here’s this paper where Dallin Oaks is saying, or whoever it was, was saying, just get married<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> it was, It was Dallin Oaks<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> It was<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> course it was. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> just get married and things will be fine. and here’s conversion therapy for you if you [01:05:00] need it. Like of course there’s trauma of then, okay, I’m just going to get married, Things will be fine. Then realizing, oh, nope, that didn’t cure me. Coming out to your husband, being in a marriage to a good man for years and then realizing it’s still not working. Having to like, we do not wanna take lightly the decision to divorce. Decision to remove your records from the church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> I don’t care what your orientation is when you, I don’t know, a single person that when you make that decision doesn’t make it in all sincerity. You know? And we, we certainly were deeply sincere in that commitment and wanting to live what we had always been taught was the plan to happiness and to becoming like god. Who wouldn’t want that? Who wouldn’t sacrifice everything for that? Like I sure I sure did. I, I believed and faithfully stepped into that wholeheartedly and then to only to find over time, my gosh, like we are both, we too sincere, loving, [01:06:00] caring people are both in so much pain. No matter which way we try, you know, sort of like being in a maze that actually has no exit, that actually has no door, no matter which way we try to reconcile this as a couple, we, we are both in a lot, a lot of pain and we don’t know how to walk forward in a way that doesn’t leave us both just in uh, just utter depression and, you know, suicidality at different times. That’s, that’s not sustainable. There’s, and there’s nothing about that that feels celestial, that actually starts to feel like hell,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> but it’s not that It feels like hell, that that is hell.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah, I mean, I, I wanna be, I mean, it’s like, it’s hard to, it’s hard to name that when again, When you do care about someone so much and you know they care about you so much and you’ve created these beautiful children together and you’ve done everything that you know how to do to create a life giving journey with each other, and [01:07:00] yet to, to have your, your mind, body, spirit start breaking down and wondering how you’re gonna, somehow come back from what feels like the Walking Dead, or wanting to die. Yeah, it, it, it certainly was a nightmare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> And So I, would imagine from what you’re describing, that your husband potentially also has PTSD from queerness being um,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know what words he would use, so I don’t wanna, I’m, I’m really careful to not tell another person’s story, even in sort of labeling that for him. But I was blessed in that for whatever reason, he always believed gay people deserve the right to marry. Because for him it was as simple as like, well, if I was gay and if I had to marry someone that I wasn’t attracted to, that seems so wrong and awful. Like it, it was as simple as, as putting himself in another person’s shoes and always seeing the complexity of what [01:08:00] I was trying to live.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And see my pain as being not just an outgrowth of like, Oh, well you’re unhappy cuz you just wanna sin. And that makes people unhappy and that’s how you know it’s bad. But seeing the struggle of like, no, you, you are denying yourself congruent partnership and gosh, no wonder you’re in pain. And like, are you able to like work that out or are we not?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

so we were always, or like he was actually the person who helped me learn that my experience was legitimate. And then we tried to like figure out, okay, well knowing it’s legitimate, what do we do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And we tried every which way, as a couple. And I tried every which way as individual to try to like work it out within myself. And I think short of, I know some people who go on medication just to deal with like the utter, sort of insurmountable depression. I never did. I thought, if I can’t be healthy and happy, then this must not be you know, [01:09:00] it has to be sustainable on its own terms. That was never something I was willing to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But yeah, there, there were points where he definitely, I think would’ve, honestly labeled himself as deeply depressed. And deep depression can lead to a lot of dark, dark places and he hit a lot of dark places and I, that was unacceptable to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It was one thing for me to be the queer person who was struggling and suffering. And that narrative was like, I was, that’s what I was called to, but not him. Right. I mean, I’m saying that with a tone of sarcasm, but I was always told that my suffering was the kind of suffering that one should do as a faithful latter day saint.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so that was like ingrained in me that you just, you sacrifice and you consecrate and you give everything. And I probably, maybe I would’ve done that forever, if not for also seeing that he was like in really immense pain as well and going this, [01:10:00] this us both looking at each other, taking turns at different times. Like, this is not okay. This is not okay. I can’t do this to you. I can’t do this to you because I do love you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> And I think that that is something that hasn’t entered this narrative often enough, is this, if we, if as Latter-day Saints we care about families this isn’t just like, A queer person dealing with being queer on their own. This is entire families dealing with this and including spouses, and that pain and devastation is real for a spouse.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> absolutely. Absolutely. And I think he’s so attuned to like queer pain, that he would probably minimize his own pain because he is a, a sincere informed ally. But this absolutely hurt him like profoundly for years, For years. And you will never hear him, [01:11:00] probably ever. You know, Maybe he will at some point, I don’t know. But yeah, you, he’s not one to, to make a lot of it because, I think cuz he’s so mindful of, everything from like the, all the data we’re just talking about all these, queer PTSD and these awful incidences of suicide and suicide attempts and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I don’t think he ever wants to be the center point. And yet, it is another really important piece of the picture of like you cannot just again, bear a false witness and set people up to have such a difficult journey that is unnecessary if you really understand that queerness is just as godly as any other, straight orientation. Like why would, why would we do this to people? straight people who might marry a gay person? And certainly queer people themselves. Just none of it. None of it makes sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I asked this question because I [01:12:00] know that there are people who are in, in the midst of what you’ve already been through, and they’re looking for help, and they’re looking for support, and they’re listening to this hoping that, to find that. And I’m speaking to them. I hope you found that in Laura’s words, because these have been very powerful words. But my question is, has he been able to find healing too?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah, I mean, I think he’s still, I think, you, you come out of a marriage and, and you take your own journey. And we’ve stayed, you know, it’s been this dance between how do you like, reshape and develop healthy boundaries that center a path towards a new relationship, right? New relationship for him, new relationship eventually for me. How do you center those, those relat those new relationships in a new life as it should while also still being family but not husband and wife?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Again, like I, I, I’m, I’m apprehensive to speak for him. I’m trying to think of what he would [01:13:00] wish for me to say right now. And I’m like feeling almost like I’m walking on stepping in a sacred space to even try. But certainly he’s had to find his own way, and it’s, and he’s had his own complexity in that. I think it’s, that’s fair to to say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But one thing I would, I could say that like, would, would be resonant with both of us is neither one of us looks back and, and, or, or regrets making the decision to divorce. We both very, very much came to the same conclusion that what we were doing was not sustainable. That the most loving thing for us, given everything that we tried and everything we knew about each other was to clear a path for each other to be in a partnership that was healthy and sustainable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You know, it’s like, almost like building on a foundation where there’s like a crack built into it and then everything’s, just goes wonky. It’s just like, ah, you just gotta tear it all out, and start with someone where that foundation [01:14:00] is solid.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Cuz this, that goes back to my patriarchal blessing is, there will be problems in your marriage. Oh my gosh. Yeah. There was, there was. Thanks Grandpa. Grandpa’s in heaven now. I’m sure he gets kicked out of all this, but yeah, so I don’t, I don’t, that probably doesn’t answer the question very well, but I, I’m, I’m apprehensive to speak for, for him much more than that,<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> I think, I think those are perfect words. I think you’ve, you answered it perfectly. Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> This is changing topics a little bit, but I think it kind of ties back in. I love being connected to you on Facebook, Laura, because your writing is exquisite, and I remembered you writing a poem when you were residing your membership, and I just wanna read the intro and then I was wondering if maybe you’d be willing to read the poem and then talk a little bit about it as we wrap up?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Yeah. I better, I better go find the [01:15:00] poem now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> So you said on withdrawing my membership from the church. The story of Moses has long been a pivotal metaphor in helping me make sense of my journey as a gay latter day saint and queer liberation movements as a whole. The following is a poem I wrote to somehow capture my feelings as I withdraw my membership in the church so I can date and eventually marry without fear of harm, unequal treatment and the potential unjust repercussions of church leadership who’ve yet to understand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And you titled it, There’s Mana in the Wilderness: the parting thoughts of a gay latter day saint as I withdraw my membership from the church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> I will read it to the best of my ability. How’s that? And I love poetry, so.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yeah. Your writing is always so beautiful. I always feel so lucky when another Laura poem comes up in my feed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Aww. Thank you. That’s so kind. Okay, so, here we go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When Moses came of age
he began to understand
and uncover<\/p>\n\n\n\n

a closeted, hidden Israelite
even a privileged Egyptian upbringing
couldn\u2019t shelter him from seeing<\/p>\n\n\n\n

the bricks and the lashes
for the building up of the kingdom
Void to include the ascension
of the unequal laborer day by day<\/p>\n\n\n\n

For Moses
it was the lashing out
in anger
the fleeing into the wilderness
that first made him<\/p>\n\n\n\n

a fugitive
and a refugee
before he was ever a prophet<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Alone
and in the desert
Where is your mother, boy?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

No river
or basket
or palace here<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Only fire and bare feet<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Go back into Egypt
Tell them
I Am, sent you
Tell it
to your brother<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Let my people go<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But however do you reconcile
Or make slow words convincing
Two assertions of divine right
Your kin
still refusing
to hear<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Here
God sends manna
to those whose only safety
is now in the wilderness<\/p>\n\n\n\n

the bread of life
rains
down from heaven
still
to be gathered
not once
but daily<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Till the long
uncertain journey
of prophets
is finished<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Till those first divine words
realized<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It is not good
for man
to be alone<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> That was even more powerful hearing you read it than me reading it to myself and I again, goosebumps, chills, tears coming up. Is there anything else you would like to say about how that poem came to be or any comments on your beautiful writing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> you know, I think layered into that poem is a familiar story of like when Moses, when Moses goes to try to reshape things in his community, he’s not just like speaking to leaders. He’s speaking to his family. The people who’ve raised him. The whole system is they’re his people, too. And that, that is our experience to somehow try to speak into not just hierarchies, but this is our community, this is our, these are our families.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And uh, the complexity of that. That’s what I’m, that’s what was standing out to [01:19:00] me again, in, in reading that. And how close to home, even when we travel into the wilderness, how the story is still all going on around us. We’re, we’re not sort of going into these isolated spaces.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But again, I, I love the metaphor as a gift to people because like Moses wasn’t more righteous when he was wrestling in the wilderness than he was in speaking up about what was happening than he was in stepping away than he was in building a life in the wilderness. Like at every point in that story arc, even though it looked different at different times, his character and his heart was like always in this like, good place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that’s, that’s a message that I would want, like queer people to integrate about themselves. It’s like wherever you’re at in that story arc, whether you’re feeling like you need to be in the church and you need to speak up and be visible, [01:20:00] you know, or you’re in this place of like wrestling in a wilderness where you don’t know who to speak to or how to speak, your words are slow and you’re, you’re just still trying to figure that piece out, or, or you’ve left and you’ve been gone for a long time and you’re out building a new life, like, You are the same person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And in fact, I think the only way that I would potentially judge Moses is if Moses just sat in his privilege and was complacent . We wouldn’t have a story. You know, We wouldn’t have a hero. We wouldn’t have a hero if, Moses just ignored what was going on. And just like, well, you know, I’ll just, I like the privilege of being. You know where I am, and so we’ll just go with the status quo. every other point in the story. Moses is a hero. Moses is, is a good person. And um, wherever people are at, I wish for them to like see themselves in that way. And again, to imagine a God who sees them in that way. And to be able to overall, like [01:21:00] imagine that it’s possible to see oppression and respond to it and move with it in different ways, that is life giving and ultimately like moves us into empowerment and safety and to be able to like build back stronger.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> That is so beautiful. Thank you. I remember reading that poem, I guess it’s been a year and a half ago now that you posted it. And just the witness once again of there is manana. No matter where you are, God wants to give you manana. Your higher power, your the universe wants to bless you, whatever language you have. And I know for me, I felt for the longest time that I could only find manna bread in the church<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Right. Cause we were all taught that it’s like, well, like that question of like, Well, where will you go? It’s like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, [01:22:00] whoa. Like we are ignoring so many stories of like, God takes care of his people in the wilderness. God leads them to safety. God shows up for them even if they are disconnected from the main body of the quote unquote chosen people, like God’s not limited by the oppression and like you’re stuck in the oppression so you can get mana. That’s not what God did to the children of Israel. That’s not what, God asked of Lehi or it’s like, no, you can take a journey to safety and I will sustain you. I will sustain you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Yes, that’s, that’s what really stood out to me. and thank you for that witness that God will sustain you. And I think sometimes we don’t realize until we are in the wilderness that there that is possible and that God will and that there will be manna. Cause I know that was the biggest fear for me. That I was eating bread in the church [01:23:00] and it was poisoning me<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> but there was mana to be had in the wilderness. And it is hard. I appreciated you pointing out that it wasn’t just, you know, he was wasn’t just talking to leaders, he was talking to his people. And it’s hard when our people maybe don’t understand that journey into the wilderness, or maybe they’re left behind because the bread is working for them. They’re not being hurt and poisoned and whatever metaphor you wanna do. But he did the journey he needed to do and God took care of him. So thank you so much for that poem, for your witness, for your story. It’s so appreciated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Well, thanks. Thanks you both for having me. Really appreciate being here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kate:<\/strong> This has been, this has been the most goosebumps I’ve gotten a while. I’m gonna need a robe or a blanket [01:24:00] after this. But thank you. It’s been very powerful, very wise, and I’m looking forward to this being out in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laura:<\/strong> Awesome. All right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Colette:<\/strong> Alright. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. If you’re liking these episodes, we’d love it if you’d rate and review Called to Queer on the podcast player of your choice so that other people are more likely to find us. We’d also love it if you’d share our podcast with a friend who could benefit from hearing these stories. If you wish to contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In this episode, we interview Laura Skaggs. Laura’s been on a long journey within church; initially coming out and working for change in the church for many years before deciding to divorce her former husband and withdraw her membership. Laura also provides some insight into the trauma that queer Mormons experience, per Brian Simmon’s dissertation and uses beautiful scripture metaphors (including the story of Moses) to speak about the complexity of queer Latter-day Saint experiences.<\/p>\n

Laura Skaggs is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who specializes in treating spiritual trauma at the intersection of LGBTQ+ experiences and religion. Laura earned her master\u2019s degree in marriage and family therapy at San Diego State University with an emphasis in LGBTQ+ mental health within conservative religious social contexts. She went on to serve for two years on the board of directors of Affirmation LGBT+ Mormons, Families and Friends with a focus on responding to spiritual trauma and suicide prevention. Laura is also the co-creator of CWEERS Empowerment groups: a practice designed to help LGBTQ+ individuals and their supporters confront social discrimination and internalized stigma. Laura is the mother of two daughters and presently sees clients full time in Provo, UT as part of Flourish Therapy Inc: a non-profit mental health clinic committed to expanding access to affordable, culturally competent, evidence-based behavioral and mental health services for LGBTQIA+ individuals, couples, and families. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[8,20],"tags":[30,14,35],"class_list":["post-506","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-episode-transcripts","category-interview","tag-divorce","tag-mixed-orientation-marriage","tag-therapist"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/506","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=506"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/506\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":510,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/506\/revisions\/510"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=506"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=506"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/calledtoqueer.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=506"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}