Kate: Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, genderqueer and intersex experiences. I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/they.
Colette: And I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: And today, we are talking with Melissa Malcolm King, and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jump into that, we want to start up by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Colette, what brought you queer joy this week?
Colette: I’m getting ready for my retreat that’s happening this weekend. And we were just talking about glasses. So this reminded me, Melissa has some great glasses. Apparently has some rainbow glasses that she lost, but I found some rainbow sunglasses on Amazon that I’ve been loving. And so as part of the gift bag retreat, for the retreat, I bought a bunch of rainbow sunglasses for everyone else. Cause it just, [00:01:00] it brings me queer joy whenever I wear them. So I’m excited to spread that to others.
Kate: Oh, my gosh. I love that. I’m sure that other people will be so excited to have those too.
Colette: I sure hope so.
Kate: Yeah, that was thoughtful. I liked that.
Colette: What about you, Kate? What’s been your queer joy?
Kate: Actually, mine is also apparel, weirdly.
Colette: How do we coordinate?
Kate: I know. So I, when I was in Spain I bought rainbow socks and I have my rainbow glasses and rainbow shoes. And every week I go to the gym and it’s my thing to wear all those things together. That’s like my queer joy is to show up at the gym this way.
And this week somebody came up to me and it’s Oh my gosh, How are you? What’s going on? And I was like, oh, I am, I don’t recognize. Cause I’m in Romania. How this is definitely a signal to other people. I’m a safe place or something like that. So I was happy that somebody felt [00:02:00] comfortable enough to approach me and comment on all of my rainbow. So that brought me queer joy this week.
Colette: That’s so awesome. I love that so much. Yay for rainbows bringing connection.
Kate: Yay. All right. So Melissa, what is your queer joy this week?
Melissa: My name is Melissa Malcolm King. My pronouns are she/her and they/them, and I think like my queer joy for this week is the fact that I have been able to participate in a variety of different programming and including at the end of the week I wanted to be able to address some youth. So that brings me the most joy because I feel like I’m impacting the next generation.
Kate: Absolutely you are. You’re doing it on a lot of fronts too. So we thank you for all the activism work that you’re doing. So yay for queer joy.
Colette: Melissa, I’m excited to get to know you. I know I’ve interacted with you a little bit through [00:03:00] Affirmation, but we’d love to have you tell our listeners a little bit about your queer Mormon story. Your… give your overview before we get going.
Melissa: Okay, great. So I, my connection to the Mormon church is that I joined the Mormon church when I was 14 years old, after coming from a very diverse religious background, mainly Jewish and Catholic. And I was also raised in the community of Islam. And throughout my conversion to the LDS church, I also came to realize that I was queer.
I’m also disabled and I’m also intersex. So I have, I think if there’s an intersection I’m belong probably with everyone. And in the past, I would say three or four years, I’ve become a very strong advocate for LGBTQ rights based on all the experiences I’ve had growing up within the, not only the walls of the LDS church, but other dominant religions of the world.
And so my [00:04:00] focus, like I try to have every year have a focus. And so this year’s focus is on how I can empower humanity to make greater change. And so I’m excited for the next chapters in my life, from my end, to see where not only the laws go, but with the mindset of humanity will go in the future to find not only a space at the table, but a place for equity for everyone.
Kate: Wow. Thank you. Thank you for all your work you’re doing and for thinking about these things and putting your efforts into really specific language and thinking through advocacy in very direct goals. I appreciate that. And that’s a goal I have for myself, but also it’s nice to see it in somebody else who’s doing that work and somebody who I would like to emulate, so thank you for that.
Melissa: That’s a big honor coming from you.
Kate: No, [00:05:00] Melissa. Like you’ve been part of this community for a long time. You’ve been very active in this, in lots of intersectional spaces. And I’ve noticed that, I know Colette’s noticed that. And so yeah, we want to, we do have a lot of admiration for the work that you do because that takes a lot of time and energy and effort.
Maybe we could talk about that. Maybe we could start off talking about like how you engage with your community, how with this larger community at all of the intersections that you’re sitting at and yeah. How you get to know so many people.
Melissa: I think when I first started the study and my community was pretty small and pretty insular, I think almost on purpose because I think at the time I needed that space to heal. Figuring out who I was before I could go out and advocate for other people. And I think the reason why my community has grown is because I reached into the narrow cracks.
So I so often have realized that as I’ve [00:06:00] interacted with these various groups and what the different missions and purposes, that often the mission is so broad or so complex, that it leaves out the people in the cracks. And so I spent my time in each of these places reaching into those cracks and trying to pull people out that are not given a voice. They’re not given an equal share in decision-making, so that we can all together, have a space where everyone is being represented, not only equally, but in a space where everyone feels that what they have to share or contribute is extraordinary value. And so that’s where I started and I feel like ever since then, things have exploded into a very beautiful and abundant space. I really do appreciate that because I’ve gotten to know so many wonderful people and hear their stories and they’ve heard mine. And I feel like the more visibility that we have, that the more that we’re going to help people to develop a skillset to diminish that implicit bias and all the things [00:07:00] that cause our world to be in a negative space that is right now.
Kate: The one thing I would like to say about that is that you are such a positive influence and your connections with other people are so positive and like you really deeply connect with other people. I’ve noticed that. And I just want to acknowledge and appreciate that that positivity is not always easy. And acknowledging and talking about implicit bias, especially is not easy, but the way that you go about it in such a like straightforward yet compassionate way, I think I have a lot of admiration for that.
Colette: I was just going to say, I got chills with you talking about the cracks. I think so often people do get lost in the in-between spaces and left out and marginalized within the marginalized. So I just love that’s your mission and you do such a good job of finding [00:08:00] those people and creating community.
Kate: Can we like go back to, you have a really interesting story in your childhood, growing up with around all sorts of different religions. Do you feel like you’ve pulled in a lot of that into your life now?
Melissa: I think so. So I’ve always been the kind of person that believes that there is good in all things. I think my main issue with most world religions is that they believe in this totalitarian concept, that their way’s only way, and that’s the only way to receive happiness or contentment or interactions with others.
But I don’t believe that. I believe that each of us has our own good. And then as we go out and share this it’s those horrible parts of ourselves and have those uncomfortable conversations, that’s how we build that within ourselves and for other people. So as I’ve had these experiences, as one being involved with [00:09:00] pretty much all the major religions in the world, I’ve learned that, everyone pretty much wants the same thing.
They want to be loved. They want to have a place to belong and they want to have a spiritual home. And so I feel that in each of those settings, while I had a lot of things happened that I don’t agree with. And I feel that interrupted those things for me personally, I could see the good that each puts into the world or what they’re trying, what they’re attempting to do. That doesn’t mean there’s not room for improvement, and that there is not prejudice or discrimination because there’s a lot of it and it’s very prevalent. It just means that even in the most darkest and ugliest place, there is some beauty to be found. And I want to be clear that I’m not condoning any behavior, that the stories of the people or groups of people, because honestly, that’s not what I stand for. But I’m [00:10:00] just saying that I think that, in a spiritual sense, that whatever a person’s spiritual journey is their own. And they have the opportunity to choose for themselves what that looks like, irregardless of what a major religion may dictate is correct or not.
Kate: Yeah, and that is such a tight rope to walk, trying to balance those. You do it so well, but maybe we can just get into the nitty-gritty of that. There are things here in Mormonism that are, first of all, not working; second of all, harmful and violent towards particular groups, multiple groups that you’re a part of, that we’re a part of. How do you walk that tight rope and how do we address these things head on in ways that are not being addressed right now?
Melissa: So the first one is I don’t believe I walk a tight rope. I walk [00:11:00] the space I’m creating for myself. Because I feel like for so long, I always wanted to like be in the box of someone else makes me all a space to someone else created because I thought that would be the easiest way to not cause any problems. Or cause any ruffles in the worlds, if I just put on this face. So I was good at it. I really was. I could go one place and have a face on, go to the next place, have a face on. But after a while, I guess what the hurt, the real person on the inside was decaying really slow because I felt I was not being authentic to myself.
And so now I feel I don’t walk on any tight ropes. I don’t answer to people. I only answer to myself and how I feel in my personal convictions on things. And if people can’t accept it, that’s, that’s on them. But I personally feel that the spaces I choose to be in or not choose to be in is my personal journey. And at this moment, I don’t believe in standing in places or being in places where not, everyone is welcome because I feel like that it’s saying that the [00:12:00] behavior’s okay.
And most recently, there was one incident with Brad Wilcox and I don’t want to spend a whole lot of time talking about stupid people, but even though he said things that were very heinous, the people that sat behind him said nothing at that who spoke the most. Because a person’s ability or inability to be half or effective, or to change things, really the kinds of those around who are following after them.
And so I think they’re just as culpable as the other person that was speaking out loud. And so I think this has been a common theme throughout life. When people have said things that were offensive or not appropriate, or whatever the terminology you want to use, but no one ever points out the fact that everyone else stands and says nothing.
Kate: And particularly, in this one instance, that it’s been said over years, and then it’s taken a very public zoom video to, to address it and stop it [00:13:00] when there’ve been thousands of people who have listened to it before.
Melissa: Yes.
Kate: Absolutely.
Melissa: And then I think the other part of this is that I think people that have that privilege and not to be in the margin. They have to be willing to do the work. And then oftentimes when I speak to people about this, they think it’s like, Oh well, I’ll just go do a brief Google search. And I will learn a few key terms or vocabulary. No, it’s not a pop quiz. No. The idea is that you not only learn the wording or what the things mean, but you as a person sit down and reflect about how you are going to, one work on the things in your life that are a barrier for others, and two, how you going to become a better ally or advocate for other people.
And I think that’s the part people are missing. I think I know a lot of different things or I want to watch for groups, but yes, but your actions and behavior when you’re not with them, is what ultimately will [00:14:00] define that greater outcome.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. I have a couple of things to say about that. The first is that I have been talking recently about my pronouns, which are she/they. I use she because other romance languages make plural pronouns difficult. And so I use that as sort of way to say English isn’t the only way. And also pronouns are not an internalization of my gender. You could easily use my they/them pronouns very fluently and still not internalize that my gender is nonbinary. So I think that’s similar to what you’re talking about. You can use all the vocabulary you want, but if you’re not internalizing the concepts and using it in your day-to-day life to reframe the way you think about the world more generally, then you really haven’t done the work.
Melissa: Correct. Like for example, I’m a person that’s intersex and for most people they, you should just [00:15:00] pick a gender and then I just go with it because I want to like always engage with current dialogue. However, like it would be nice if people would recognize that. And not try to hide from a taboo subject or something. It is who I am. And I’m proud about that. And I don’t want, I wouldn’t want life to be any different.
Colette: Can we dive into what it means for you to be intersex? Is that something you’re okay talking about?
Melissa: So being intersex basically means that your assigned gender at birth is neither determined to be male or female for various reasons. For some people it’s a hormonal thing where you have developed with hormones. And so therefore, hormonally, you tested to be intersex. For other people, they have the external organs they might be part of a vagina or part of a penis, or they might be just a combination of both or void of any at all, depending on the type of intersex.
So there’s lots of different kinds.
Kate: [00:16:00] So there are multiple laws across the country, mostly in California I think, that are coming to legislatures to say, we need to stop nonconsensual, newborn, infant cosmetic surgeries that are doing more harm, just for the cosmetic purposes of fitting a binary that doesn’t actually exist.
So I would like to send a note out to folks, look up what your law, the laws are in your state. And if this is one that is going to, if you’re in the United States, and if this is one that is on the table, this is a point where you can be a really big advocate for the intersex community.
Melissa: Yes. And I also wanted to add that will be also when you look up the laws, a good idea to have an understanding of hormone therapy and what parents are allowed to administer without the child’s knowledge. Because like, in my case, I was given hormone therapy for a long [00:17:00] time and no one told me that. And so therefore I basically went through a testosterone driven puberty first. And then I, then I was given hormones and then I went to a female puberty or wherever, how to get boobs and stuff. So, which caused me a lot of mental psychosis and a lot of problems. So that’s another part of the story that people don’t talk about because in order to keep the thing going, then you have to intervene hormonally in some way.
Kate: This is really traumatic. These, this is mentally traumatic, traumatic on your body, traumatic in so many ways. So I want to make sure that we have space to I’m sure this is a topic you’re used to talking about, but give you the space to say this is super traumatic, if you need space.
I also wanted to ask about, there are[00:18:00] in the United States, past 50 years, a lot of medical procedures that are, that have been done well in the last a hundred years, but it’s been in the last 50 years as well. There are a lot of medical procedures that people just aren’t aware of. We don’t learn about in history that are racist, that are incredibly damaging. As far as we want to enforce a binary, we have to recognize that our medical, the medical community is also perpetuate. There’s also a perpetuation of these sorts of things. So in terms of disability, in terms of gender, there are lots of ways that this is this plays out in the medical community. Do you want to talk about any of that, that history or anything?
Melissa: I won’t like go to into too many dates or history points. I don’t think people can research it on their own, but I will say this, [00:19:00] that a lot of medical things and procedures where people guinea pigs for them, like a lot of people that were slaves or disability community, they were mishandled and mistreated so that doctors could figure out how to treat other people.
And I think that’s often a large part of our history. Like not talked about or dissolved away into some politically correct fantasy to make people feel better. But the reality of it is that a lot of people suffered unnecessarily to bring about a lot of medical change. And an ironic part is I feel that now, if the people that are marginalized just of, of healthcare are being denied, access to it by the same system that it abused people to make these pathways into medical advancements, if you will.
And so I think those are the kinds of juxtapositions and things people have to think about when they’re, who they might go out to vote. Or when I decide about a certain [00:20:00] bill, like the thing you have to look at the whole framework.
Like for another example, it’s a lot of times people say I’m not for a marriage equality. What are they thinking of marriage equality as being something that supports a three secret class rights, but the reality is marriage equality also caught me that someone that loves someone else shouldn’t have to decide between being married to them and getting healthcare rights or insurance or anything else losing their housing, all that is underneath marriage equality, because we’re saying that we want everyone to be able to have an equitable experience if that’s what they choose to do. And so that’s my takeaway from everything is that I want to encourage everyone, please go out and vote. Please do we’ll work on the people that are running the governmental systems here so that we can actually make a better place space for everyone. We need to look at the whole umbrella.
Kate: Absolutely. Thank you for that work.
Colette: I want to go back if you’re [00:21:00] okay to the figuring yourself out. And you had mentioned that you were figuring yourself out as you were going through your conversion process, realizing you’re queer and still joining a church that can definitely be said is anti queer. Can you talk about what that experience was like?
Melissa: Yeah, so I was raised in like half, like in Jewish household and I’ve always been a person that was extremely spiritual. And so when I heard the messages from the missionaries about family and being together and all those different narratives, that appealed to me because I felt like, okay well, this is going to be my refuge. This is going to be the place where I can thrive. But after a while I realized it was just the same characters in a different book. And so that’s where my mom became troubled, because on one hand I felt like some obligation to my family and to my spiritual community that I need to live up to the [00:22:00] narrative that they wrote for me about that, about being not only cisgender, but there’s this underlying thing saying that eventually I would become white.
And so all of those messages just basically told me that I was not enough and no matter how hard I tried, I will never be enough. And so somewhere, I think in my subconscious, I accepted that for a long time that I, whatever crumbs and was running from the table was sufficient for me. And I guess I should just accept that.
And so I lived my life in a way where I kind of accepted nouns to the crumbs. I’m walking away from the table. Probably would be underneath the table, because I felt like, well at least I’m near to where I want to be. However, the process of like realizing that I was not like other people in many ways made me realize that a sense of refuge is not a physical building or even people. It’s the ability to be at peace on the inside as yourself. And then find out this authenticity with yourself, no matter what [00:23:00] storms are brewing around you, because the reality of my life is that because I have so many intersections, I’m always coming to a place and not belonging, but I realized I could belong to myself. And so when I realized that, my whole conductory of my life changed, because I didn’t feel like I was less than or unworthy to receive all that I deserved to have.
Kate: That is super powerful. Wow.
Colette: I can see that both Kate and I got emotional over that. The analogy of using crumbs from the master’s table is one that’s really resonated with me as a queer person within the church. And I’ve written and thought quite passionately about that idea of why, why am I just okay with the crumbs? We should be having the whole feast. And how do I then kind of deal with that juxtaposition of institutionally, I am to accept crumbs. [00:24:00] When I know that doesn’t feel right or good to me, I should be part of the whole feast. And that is such a hard place to be. So thank you for speaking to that and giving voice to something I think a lot of people, a lot of queer people in the church feel.
Melissa: Thank you.
Kate: So I want to talk more about the intersectionality that you’ve brought up a couple of times and saying, when you say that you’re sitting at these intersections, because, I think for me, I would say, I feel outside. Like I feel cut off from the church because I’m queer, I feel cut off from the church. But when you’re sitting in these intersections and saying that you belong to yourself, I get the impression that you also feel a very big sense of belonging to these smaller groups, as well. Is that accurate to say?[00:25:00]
Melissa: Yes. So I feel that, so before, I would not claim many of my titles, I feel I’ve kind of like buried them away and I try to blend in with as much as society as I could. And so now I embrace the fact that yes, I’m queer. Yes. I am disabled. Yes, I am intersex. Yes. I identify as being genderqueer. Yes. I like to date women. All of these things. I don’t like put them away and say that they’re ugly on the spot. I don’t despise them anymore. I embraced them all. I can’t say I embrace them all equally because they have their own place in my life, but I embrace them in a place that I’ve loved with compassion and grace, which I did not do before.
Kate: I think that people just hearing you say that, that that will be really impactful for people. Because people really need to hear that message more and more often. And from somebody who really has an internalized [00:26:00] that.
Colette: I’m just curious if you can elaborate more on how you got there, because I know how hard that is for me being socialized raised as a woman. We’re told, make yourself acceptable, make yourself smaller, tuck away anything that doesn’t fit. Can you talk about how you got to just be more comfortable claiming all these identities for yourself?
Melissa: Sure. So just to give a little more of my backstory. Being raised in all these religions, my job in life was be meant to be married and to have 10 kids. And to be the greatest homemaker ever, I guess. And I, to be honest while I think I’m a great homemaker, the rest obviously never came to pass. And so I failed a lot of people in my social circles. And so for one hand, I was very depressed about that because I felt like I didn’t meet up to whatever someone else’s yard stick.
And so what helped me ultimately to turn that path around was I well, two [00:27:00] things. One, I started to go to therapy with the actual awesome therapist who was queer affirming. And the other thing that I did was I sat down, I went to a Affirmation event or reading or whatever it was, so that activity was, we were supposed to write down our core beliefs or different topics, how we felt about it. And I sat down, I wrote probably four pages of like my tenants of living, I guess you could put it.
And I still have it somewhere, but then putting all that down, I realized, Hey, I get to choose my own narrative. I get to choose my own space. I get to choose me. Because my whole life, someone else has always made that choice, whether it was consciously or subconsciously, I let other people make that choice for me.
And so then after a point, I decided that I was going to start in small steps, making those choices for me, it has been not been easy because, as you explained when you get indoctrinated with something for so long, it’s hard [00:28:00] to want to bring out the pattern cause even a negative pattern has its comfort.
But at the same time, I realized that if I’m going to be truly happy and truly authentic to myself, I have to let things, the heavy things go to make some more beautiful things can enter that same space, you know, Because you can’t really hold both because it just becomes too heavy and too overwhelming after awhile.
And so guess anyone that’s listening to this, it’s not an overnight thing. It’s not an instant pill kind of solution. It’s just a lifelong commitment to planting things within, that fulfill you and being willing to cast away that which is not good.
And I want to just clarify the word good. Cause you know, within the Christian realm, we have a big, there’s a big focus on the good and bad thing. And then that people in this cast out, know what I mean by good is things that are fruitful, things that, that bring abundance to life. Not necessarily someone has a center in us. I want to clarify that for those people [00:29:00] who may use that word in different way.
Kate: Yeah, that’s great. There’s some, there’s one point that you brought up that I was like, ah, I hope people listen to that. And that is that negative spaces can be comfort. It can be comfort to be in a place that is harming you and hurting you. And I think it’s a powerful statement to hear you say like, no, you don’t need to be in those spaces anymore. Figure out what works for you and what you want for your life, and figure out how to find those spaces for yourself and where to plant yourself. I love that. Thank you.
Melissa: Yeah. Oh, and then I will, this was going also add. That also I find that there’s a tendency for people as they go through this journey, whatever that journey looks like for them, it’s that they become harsh critics or judges to other people. Because sometimes when people are in a toxic relationship or a toxic institution, then what happens is without meaning to, they take that negativity and pass it out to other people and then [00:30:00] consequences of that, they then turn around and criticize other intersections, the other people, how people choose to live or express themselves. And then it was really, it’s an internal hatred that they’re trying to filter out onto other people. So I think as you work on yourself and do that work, you. have to be very careful to where you’re funneling that energy to.
Kate: Oh, this is so great. You’re just like so full of words of wisdom. excellent.
Colette: You very much own the label of disabled. Can you talk about what that looks like and how you’ve come into that space?
Melissa: I have several disabilities and some I was born with, and then when I was about five or six, I contracted Lyme disease. And at that point they gave me a whole lot of medication as is common practice then [00:31:00] is that they would often, use the poor or people of color to try things out on. So I was one of those people. And so consequently that I lost most of my hearing and I had a lot of other physical problems. However, my cultural background indicated that I had in order to make it in the world and to be within that white, Eurocentric space, I had to assemble it as much as possible and that included, not letting people know that I was disabled, not receiving any services for the things I need help with, to show everyone I could just be a full, independent, or I could just do it on my own.
And so I spent most of my life trying to disguise these things from people, but it was causing me a lot of suffering because I wasn’t getting the help that I needed. Three years ago, I decided that I didn’t want to live in this space anymore. [00:32:00] And so I started by going and getting speech therapy for my speech issue. And from there, I just began to talk about it when I was asked to do different speaking things or do a workshop. I would mention it ,kind of in passing, because to me it still feels like a thorn that I didn’t want to face. Cause it still caused me a lot of internal bleeding, but I was willing to say it out loud. So that was a step.
And then I got a phone call one day to be in a panel for an organization called We Brave Women that highlights the voices of women and gender minorities through different kinds of panels, different themes. So I had done one for abuse survivors and they called me back and said, would you be willing to do this one with people with disabilities?
And I was like, okay. But then by doing that, I didn’t know how the audience is going to react to that or what I had to say if it will be a positive experience, but after it was over, some people came up to me and they were so receptive and so kind and so compassionate. I said, I thought, [00:33:00] you know what, maybe this is a sign that I shouldn’t be hiding this from people. That maybe this is much like other people’s voices, they need mine.
And then through that experience, I was able to connect with the Disability Rights Action Committee, which I’m now a board member of. And they work on helping to provide equitable rights to people. They help to build equitable spaces of people. And if the fight against discrimination for people who are disabled and they also work on legislation and other things like that to help make equitable laws for people with disability. So now my face is connected with that.
So if you could have told them this firing was six even 10 years ago, I could not imagine that will be my experience, but here I am.
I think that it also has helped me as a person to realize that even though I might have limitations or there are things that I might need help with or whatever, that, that doesn’t devalue, who I am. Like my values are not [00:34:00] based on what I can give up in that sense as much as what I can do to be a support and love to other people. And likewise being a vessel to accept it in return
Kate: Yeah. Oh, wow. Thank you for doing all of that work, but it’s interesting. This it’s called Disability Action Rights Committee. That’s right?
Melissa: It was called Disability Rights Action Committee. DRAC. That’s the acronym.
Kate: Okay. So it is run led by folks who have disabilities, but I think that people aren’t very aware that many disability agencies, organizations are not disability led, so they’re not led by disability. So I want to emphasize that this is, this seems to be one that is
Melissa: Yes. It’s fully run operated by people that are all various factions of disability, which I, this is one reason why [00:35:00] I’m proud to belong to them. Because I feel like in other disability communities, there’s often like a hierarchy of like, an ablest system. Well, the people who are at the top, they holding decisions without ever A) experiencing a disability or B) engaging people who have disabilities in the first place. And then I feel like we’ve become like a poster people for whatever the cause is rather than actually having the engagement and change that we need.
Kate: Yes. And I don’t think that folks are aware of that. I don’t think that they recognize that there are these hierarchies of ableism that happens within these organizations. And it’s really important to make a note of that. Thank you.
Melissa: Yes. Cause because it says there is systemic racism. There’s also systemic ableism.
Colette: A hundred percent. Yeah. Can you talk more about that idea? I think that might be a new idea to some People, some of our listeners of what is systemic ableism?
Melissa: in other words, that there are systems in place that [00:36:00] they give them discrimination to people who are disabled. So for example, one area would be like for housing. Most people can go to a place and then pay the rent and do all those things with you, and then moving to a home that suits them.
But when you have a disability, then you have to find a housing that’s meets those needs. And often an apartment complex will provide ADA accessible accommodation, however it’s usually the bare minimum. And then you have to prepare actually keep fighting them to have the things you need.
Another area is in a place of employment. There are a lot of people that are disabled that have degrees. They have, studied just as hard as anyone that wants to, but when they come through the door and they either use a cane or wheelchair or have a disability that you can see, then the person who was doing the interview often sees that person as less than. And so therefore, they were offering them a lower paying [00:37:00] job or they will say to them, well, we feel like you’re not the best candidate for this job. It’s soley because they see that they’re disabled.
Another area is, like I mentioned before with the whole marriage equality thing on people in the disability community struggled to decide how to navigate the relationships because doing so often means the loss of some sort of financial benefit or our housing or other things that other people don’t have to deal with. So rather than being a celebratory event, they’re dealing with all these external factors just to stay alive. And so that’s the reason why I say it’s the systemic ableism because the systems are in place and because it’s not affecting the majority of people, so they feel. Most people are not aware or nor are they willing to want to change it because the system is self-supporting financially from this.
Kate: Yeah, I just want to insert a plug here for people who this is new for. There’s, a great documentary of the history of the [00:38:00] ADA called Crip Camp that I think is on Netflix. I’m not sure, but if you’re interested in the history of the ADA and how that came about again, organized, run completely, it was completely in the hands of disabled activists. That is a really important documentary, I think, for folks to watch.
Melissa: Yes, I would. I would highly recommend it. And also just fair trigger warning before you watch it. It’s very hard to watch, but I also recommend people watching the Willowbrook documentary because it discusses, it shows the how they change about the people that have mental illness and other disabilities and how they put away into these institutions. So it kind of is like pre Crip Camp documentary. So if you watch both of those together, you will get a pretty good overview of where things were and where were, where we hopefully headed.
Kate: Awesome. Thank you for that.[00:39:00]
Colette: Yeah, but there’s definitely still work to be done. I want to highlight the marriage equality idea because I think that might be an interesting one for some people. To conceptualize this a little bit more, many people that are disabled are needing government assistance for health care, like basic health care that’s needed for some disabled people is completely out of reach without government assistance.
But if you get married and your income increases because of that, you can lose that government assistance. Same with it’s like, well, just go get a job. If you get a job, you may lose the assistance. And some jobs aren’t going to provide the same level of healthcare that you need to manage your conditions.
And so when I worked at a previous job where that was a real reality for a lot of people that we were trying to help them get jobs, but they sometimes had to weigh, wait, does this make sense for me to be able, because for every dollar I make over X amount, I start [00:40:00] losing these benefits that I need to survive. And I think a lot of people who aren’t disabled don’t recognize how hard that reality is.
Melissa: Yes. And also along with that is that to me is very emotionally exhausting. Like when you get a job like, so aside from the fact that you have to consider losing benefits. You have to consider your housing. When you do all these different things. It’s a full-time job being disabled. I say, because you have to be willing to have to know what paperwork goes to what person at what time. You have to have extra meetings to accomplish things that most people can do for themselves. And for example, when you do have a job, then a lot of times the person with disability to meet needs accommodation or modification of some sort. And then that requires the employer to have to be actively involved in making sure that happens. If not, then you have to fight your lawyer and often the employer will find [00:41:00] a reason to let the person go rather than to try to make that a space for them.
So I was feeling that was one thing I wanted to say, is that often people say Well, why does the person just get a job? Why can’t they do this? Or why can’t do that? The truth of the matter is that it’s not because the person does not want to or does not feel that they should be doing those things. It’s because of that systemic, once again, that systemic ableism or systemic racism or whatever the system is not set up in a way to help people to succeed. And so therefore, a person’s constantly trying to climb up hill and then everyone else is at the basket running downhill saying well, you’ll catch up eventually you’ll get there eventually. And that gap was never going to come together. So I think people need to realize that when they offer solutions or ask why can’t this be, it’s just the fact that this is the reality for so many people. And for all the people who live in a privilege, not to experience that, they feel that the person’s not trying hard enough, but, I guess to a point, no matter how [00:42:00] hard you try you can’t, there’s only so many poles the person cannot climb over.
Kate: All of these issues that we’re talking about here, all of these intersections for you personally, are also systemic within the larger society within governmental systems within the United States, around the globe, those sorts of things. They’re also prevalent, really heavily prevalent within the church itself. Even theologically, the way that we think about what happens after this life and those sorts of things. And so to sit at these intersections where the church has not adequately dealt with these, these intersectional spaces, any one of them, but especially there, isn’t a whole lot of talk about disability. The way that disability is framed within the church is still very, um, I don’t even know how to describe it. Backwards is the word that comes to my mind, but, okay. Maybe you can talk about how this, how [00:43:00] you would look at this within the church.
Melissa: So one of my main issues is that within the narrative of the church, often people that have disabilities are looked at as some sort of inspirational story, not as a human being. So they’ll have a video and say, this person, they went outside and they walked a mile with their crutches. We’re so proud. But do we get into depth with that person? No. Did we get into the person who has what they stand for, what they like? No. We’re just using the person on the product to make the other people feel good. And that is wrong.
Kate: Yeah.
Melissa: Visibility to me speaks volumes. And so do you see people with disabilities on covers of magazines of the church? No. Do you see people with disability in any of the movies or things they put out other than if it’s about that person? No. So then therefore it says to the person that your experience, this person’s journey is different from ours. And you can expect less just because you have this disability.
And [00:44:00] also, being raised in a certain generation, within religion, religion, supported that the effects of society, because there’s a culture of the church as well. And so the culture of the church often dictate, Well ,what did you do wrong for the person to come out the way they are? And that’s a narrative that people talk about, but it’s still very much present because then it’s the, what I call the hero mentality. Meaning rather than embracing the person and their disability, they turn around and say have you tried this pill, have you tried this herb, or have having gone to this therapist? And then the focus becomes on treating what they think is an illness rather than loving the person. And that dilutes the person down to a symptom or condition who they really are.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And this happens, we’ve talked about this before as a what we’ve termed sometimes as celestial [00:45:00] genocide, that ultimately that there’s this idea you’re going to overcome whatever this is and the next life and how problematic that is as well, to constantly be pushing things off to, and to the next life. This intersects with queerness too, right? Like this idea, your queerness will be cured in the next life.
Melissa: Because this there’s a whole concept that after death, we’re going to have this resurrection and we’re all going to be whole. But I think perhaps the problem is that when we think about it, rather than resurrection becoming a home, I don’t think it’s a physical one and meaning, I don’t think that if we’re created in the sense that we were in this experience that suddenly all that makes us who we are and it’s going to be erased, so that we can receive some sort of worldly or cisgender white person’s idea of what perfection looks like, because I don’t think in my personal perspective is that God, in their totality would say, Okay well, I created you to have this experience when you die, even though you don’t live forever, [00:46:00] all of that gets erased. So I just wanna make clear to everyone who’s listening I’m not gonna turn white, my disability will not go away, and I can definitely assure you that I will not be straight. So those are the things I know for sure.
So. I think that’s, that’s part of the heart of the problem is that it’s looked at as, Okay. well, One day all of these things that you have, all of your burdens will go away. But I don’t see being disabled as being a burden. I don’t see it as a defect that needs correction, rather than just it’s the situation for what it is. And it’s a way of living. That’s all. But I think until we can change the narrative within religion, then society really won’t get far from it because even if a person is no longer religious, they carry with it with them, those tapes, I felt okay. I’m old. Okay. But, so I used to look at cassette So, you know, you have a cassette tape, when the tape comes out and you have to use a pencil and wind it back up. So when you play it back, it’s warped a [00:47:00] little bit, but you still hear the message. It’s the same kind of thing. I think after awhile, even though if you don’t associate with something, the messages stay in your brain for a long time, and then you live the messages that you hear in your brain.
Kate: yep.
Melissa: I think that only changes on the person, either as determined to do the work for themselves to fix that, or dominant religions in society as a whole has a shift in thinking which then by kind of like group peer pressure, it affects the rest of the crowd to do the same.
Kate: There’s also visibility, like seeing somebody who like you, who’s sitting at all of these intersections and thinking about these questions that other people have just put off to heaven or whatever. And aren’t thinking about that. That’s so like that theology is so boring to me. I want to be engaging with people who are constantly feasting on what these questions of mortality look like for existence for, for much longer [00:48:00] existence. So, I think that having folks like you, who can be able to talk to these issues is, is what also what the church needs.
Melissa: Yes. I think that’s a big thing is that the spirit of the silence is more painful or more intrusive and kills more people than the outspoken crowds of people who correct claim injustice or who claim that my existance should not be. Because it’s their silence and their inaction that drives the system to what it is. And that change is only brought about when people get tired enough of the situations and want to change it. But for a lot of it, for a lot of people, they just look the other way, they say, Oh, I’m color blind, or, Oh, I don’t see your disability. I just see you. Or I, it doesn’t matter to me what you believe in or who you are, but I just don’t want to see it near me.[00:49:00]
No, that’s erasing me. That’s not an acceptable approach to living. That just makes the other person feel better and have me in, and then it makes them not have to be in a comfortable situation, but we don’t grow. And we can’t develop empathy or compassion and a willingness to change if we don’t sit in those uncomfortable spaces.
And I think sometimes within dominant religions, they have made, try to make up a middle ground, by which there’s no true empathy and no true compassion, just what is going to keep walking down the middle and towards our glory. And everyone else is kind of on the wayside. And I don’t feel that way. I feel like anyone that professes to love God or professes to love people because not everyone believes in God. Then your life should be where you increase your space, not make it more narrow. Because in that way, not only are you reaching young, people are reaching to you. It’s like uh, you know, so that things grow at [00:50:00] with that direction.
Kate: Melissa, when people talk to you do sometimes when you’re done talking, do they just ever say I just want to applaud you. Like everything that you say is just, I need like, you have such powerful words. The things that you say. Just kind of off the cuff, like that people need to get out of their comfort zones to be able to embrace whole communities. Like these concepts seems so basic and yet it needs to be told over and over again. You speak at these conferences. I can tell that, that you’ve thought a lot about these things and people want to invite you to, to give them simple concepts in ways that they can digest so easily. So thank you for that. Thank you for all your work you’re doing. Oh my goodness. You’re doing so much.
Melissa: Thank you. No. And I just want to say something [00:51:00] about most of the groups I belong to. I feel like there’s another aspect too, where I don’t know how to describe this. So it’s like I’m in a space. I feel welcome. But when I go to speak up, my voice is not always heard, because even within the space of marginalization that people marginalized, there’s more and more with those who are even more different. And then, so for a long time, I was always often overlooked when it came to decision-making or speaking or engaging with people. I was always the one that was overlooked. And so I had to, for myself insert my worth, even when people weren’t listening, till eventually I get to a space where people would at least hear me.
And so I think that’s important for people to realize that having a large community does not always mean that you are heard equitably. It just means that you’re in a space maybe that’s safer than like another [00:52:00] area where people were trying to physically hurt you or are doing things are mostly damaging, but being unheard is almost just as bad.
And so I would also like to put a plea out to people that are leaders of these different groups. And that as you sit down and plan out your leadership and as you define your mission or model or whatever it is that you consider people like me that are in the cracks, that are in the margins. And makes sure that those people are also present when you make the decisions so you can not only learn and grow from them, but then all that they will have opportunity to come to the table and say, this is what we need to have effective change.
Kate: I really liked that point because you’ve done this work and you’ve created that space for yourself, but we need to be able to create that space as well. That’s on us to do that, even in marginalized communities, to make sure to actively create that space.
Melissa: Yes. And so just to speak to that. So often, if I go to speak at something [00:53:00] or engage with a group of people of a certain demographic, then they will say to me, Well, you know, we’re really here to talk about black rights. Or we’re really here to talk about disability rights. But the reality of it is, we’re here to talk about our civil rights and human rights. And if you deny one, he denial. That’s how I certainly feel. And I think if you are a person that sits in the marginalized community, no matter what it’s called, and you see an injustice, you know, stand up, you just as bad as the main oppressor. We all have to be willing just to call out injustice as what it is. And I stand by it. I live on and say, it’s okay because it’s not affecting my community.
Colette: Well, and one thing I really appreciate from the disability community is the idea of nothing about us without us, which I know we’ve talked about already, but I think that is so important when you look at different organizations that say they’re helping a certain group of people, who’s leading? Do they look like the people that they say they’re helping or [00:54:00] are they part of that hierarchy? And we see that in a lot of different spaces. I love that you are in this disabled organization that is led by disabled people, but I’ve seen it in some queer organizations that aren’t led by queer people, or, just different things. And we do need allies. We need help, but nothing about us without us.
Melissa: So, I will say this. So for example, I won’t say the name of the organization, but there was an organization that invited me to come, to discuss some different aspects of diversity. But everyone they had on the panel was someone that was either a cisgender or white male or some combination. And then it was just me. And when they plan the meeting out, everyone had all this time to talk and they gave me like five minutes at the end.
So I said Well, you invited me here, but of all the voices here, whose voices at each, if you want to really learn the experience, you know, and then their argument was these people have studied [00:55:00] these things for years. And so therefore they have more of a right to speak more than you. And I feel like while it was important to study something and to learn about something and even become to a high academic level, I’m all for that.
But you have to be willing to leave space with people who are actually suffering to speak for themselves. Because I don’t need you to build me a platform, I have on my own platform. I don’t need it. I just want, when I stand there, I want, not only do I want you listening, I want you to make an active plan. I’m not an inspirational speaker. I tell people I’m not there to be like, oh, you’re so inspirational. And you just go about your day and do nothing. No, I’m not a feel good medicine. I’m not an antidepressant. I’m here because I want to affect change. And for people to go out and say, Hey, what can I do today to make a change? What can I do tomorrow? What can I do 10 years from now? To improve lives for everyone?,
Colette: So important, so important. And so unfortunately, common. Like I agree with you. Sure. We need research, but lived experience is research. And we [00:56:00] can’t discount people who are in these experiences. And that’s one thing I love about this podcast is being able to share stories and intersectionality and really be able to listen. So thank you so much.
Kate: I do have one, one kind of last avenue to ask you about, and that is the gender binary, sex binary. We don’t talk to enough people who can talk about a lived experience of having a gender experience and a non binary sex experience and how those things are different or the same. Can you speak to that?
Melissa: Okay. So I will try. I identify as being genderqueer. And so I don’t necessarily feel like I fit in either gender. And so some days I present more with more feminine dress. Sometimes I present in more masculine dress. But then at the same time, like biologically, because I’m intersex, then the, at least one down another pathway, because [00:57:00] I’m always feeling like I have to choose something or I have to investigate more to find out which one I should really be.
But I feel for myself, I just go how I feel most comfortable. And it’s hard for people to understand that because it’s not a constant. So people say Well, I don’t understand. Why can’t you just pick one side or the other? And I tried to explain to them, this is not like I’m choosing different kinds of bread. This is who I am. And I don’t owe that kind of an explanation. However, I feel this idea of the two things can coexist and be equal in great power. And I feel like for me, that being gender queer and my gender identity and my physical characteristics compliment each other rather than it being a friction.
And for a long time, I didn’t feel that way. I felt broken because I tried so hard to be in my binary. If there was like a binary scale, I was trying to be the farthest extreme possible and I was broken on the inside. [00:58:00] And so now I live in a space where, okay, maybe I may appear broken to the people, or maybe I may even shatter some people’s images of me, but I am me, and that’s the, probably the greatest gift I ever give myself. No one can take that away from me. And at the same time, I think I’m giving other people who have similar experiences to me, the opportunity to see that life is worth living and that you can have this experience and be happy with it.
Kate: So to me, it sounds very similar when you’re talking about illness and disability and how people are offering other people constantly. Like here’s a remedy for that. It feels very similar to that, that other people’s comfort, people think that their comfort over somebody else’s identity is more important. And I just don’t understand that, but I also get that, that people will come to me and say, why can’t you just pick one? Why do you need me to pick one? What is so important to you [00:59:00] about me picking something like this? That’s about you. That’s not about me, right?
Melissa: Well, and I also think that’s a religion also comes into play because the religious experience says this is the way to the path and you can’t deviate from. So therefore there is no choice in that, regardless of the fact that a person making a choice, it almost unsettled people because when people are not used to making a choice and the choice is being made, it’s almost like a foreign concept.
And so it was hard people embraced that I get to know I get to choose. And I’m sorry if you’re uncomfortable with that, and that’s something you have to work on for yourself. There’s nothing to do with me. And also there’s also like this narrative that we put that because I feel like media a lot portray is always the same kind of people.
And so in some way, I always feel that I have to tell him about the inferiority complex, because I don’t really see myself out there into the world as much. So I think that it’s like a three part system. So I think society, [01:00:00] isn’t big umbrella as at the media and not in the Cola hotel experience has to change because, and then when we, if we do that and people can have more visibility of people like us then also will happen if people will begin to have the ability to interact with people and realize that this is not like a foreign concept. It’s not a one in a million thing that they’re actually lots of people who feel this way, even though they may not present that way or feel comfortable to express it verbally, that there are lots of people out this way, and so I think that really what I’m trying to say is that what everyone thinks is on the outside, or as an outside thing foreign thing, it’s really not. It’s really just a matter of people looking around and realizing, Hey, the world is just not what I just, what I paid for myself, because everything in my religion, this experiences is that this orphan is designed the pages brief mural.
And they only go back to me and say where’s this where’s that? And infrastructures are missing. [01:01:00] People have no where to put it because they’ve only learned how to put together the pieces. They never asked them to learn how to think. Or act or feel for themselves. They’ve only ever just follow the crowd.
And so I think that the person goes to the journey of life. They have to take a minute and figure out what’s missing on the inside and then figuring out what’s missing in the world. And then as they work on both of those things, humanity improves itself.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely.
Colette: I can see you thinking, Kate, did you have a follow-up with that?
Kate: No, I don’t. I’m just, I’m internalizing the concepts that are coming at me.
Colette: I know so much wisdom. This has been absolutely amazing. Are there things you wanted to talk about, Melissa, that we haven’t asked?
Melissa: I’m trying to think of what else. Oh, so I just almost go a little bit more into like my little, my background. Oh, so I guess my biggest takeaway of how I grew up,[01:02:00] was that, while I got the opportunity to get to know a lot of different people and their journeys in life and how they view the world around them based on what the religious expectations tell them.
And I’ve also got to experience the effects of prejudice and racism and all those different things, and each of these groups. So I wanted to make it clear that even though it, whether it was religion or just a social group or whatever it is that these constructs still exist, it’s not a thing of the past, because my biggest thing that bothers me is that people come and say slavery was in the past or disability rights. People have all the rights they need, what more do people want? And what we want and what we demand and what we should be having is an equitable place for everyone. And we do not have that [01:03:00] currently in America or in the world about. And a lot of people sit in privilege say well, don’t you have enough. And the answer is no. And so I guess what to end with or what my overarching message is that, we will never have enough until every one has everything that they need. And right now, there are a lot of people in the world who are engaged in the broken system, because it benefits a lot of other people financially, socially, emotionally, or on a spiritual realm.
And until we can fix that division, the division will always be. And a lot of people ask me as a ally, what can I do to support the community? And I always say that an ally is more than just showing up to an event or in a button, or writing quotes and things like that. It’s about an active commitment, just to yourself, to do the work necessary, to become a better person.
And my [01:04:00] better, more authentic, more in a place, and mostly to be able to sit down in an uncomfortable space and really make decisions in your life about the associations that you have and what associations you have to let go to empower yourself and other people.
And the other part of that, of allyship, is to be an active listener, meaning that rather than just going off there and posting quotes and put them all these pictures, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but you understand the whole complexity of the struggle.
For example, like Martin Luther King Day, it irritates me to no end, no one talks about black history. They don’t say anything. And Martin Luther King Day comes all of a sudden, everyone was like, Martin Luther King was great because his movement was peaceful. No, it was not peaceful. People died. People were had the houses bomb. If they sic dogs on people, they hosed them down. So no way. It wasn’t peaceful because he chose not [01:05:00] to respond back. Okay. That’s one thing, but the action was not peaceful. So I don’t want, I don’t like empathetic and false history being spread around. So I feel like if you want to be an ally and you want to go there and you want to share a history, please share the facts. Even as painful and as ugly as it may be until we can face the ugly truth, nothing will ever change.
Kate: Thank you. I have to also like put a tidbit in to this because this also irks me. It also irks me when people call it a non violent movement, because there was a lot of violence. So you have to be thinking about where the violence is being directed as well.
But I agree that we need to be better allies and better allies as a marginalized group, that the more that we work for one another and other marginalized groups, that the better that we understand one another, the better that we can fight for one another and all of these things, it [01:06:00] benefits all of us to participate in these, to participate in marginalized groups that participate in activism for marginalized groups.
Melissa: Yes
Colette: I really hope people paid attention to the wisdom you’ve been dropping throughout this episode. It’s been so good, Melissa.
Melissa: Thank you.
Colette: And thank you for taking the time to meet with us. Really appreciate it.
Melissa: I thank you so much for the invitation.
Colette: Yeah.
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