Colette: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon woman, genderqueer and intersex experiences. I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: And I’m Kate, and my pronouns are she/they,
Colette: Today, we’re interviewing Dr. Lacey Bagley and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jumped into that, we wanted to start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Kate, what brought you queer joy this week?
Kate: okay. So queer joy? It’s like just it’s joy, but mixed with queerness. I had to bring in the queerness. I live in Romania as most of you know, and there is this habit that people have around here of graffiting “Te iubesc” on things and “Te iubesc” in Romanian means I love you. And usually you’ll see, like this it’s like big tags that say like, “Te iubsec” and then they’ll have a little heart with the people who are, who, who love one another. But I like to take pictures of this graffiti. I think it’s just so it’s such a fun [00:01:00] thing to, to have all over the city. But I’ve been trying to get a picture of this one. That’s really long across the fence for a long time. And I finally was in the right moment to get this picture. And I was like, man, just being able to express your love, even just ” I love you” tagged on the side of a building. That represents queer joy to me. It’s like, I get to express this in whatever way feels right. For me, even if it’s even you know, this sort of destruction of private property or whatever it is like, this is, this is a way for somebody to express this thing, which is, I love you. And I feel that deeply of, I want to express all the time. Like I love you. I love myself. I love the people around me and I love my queerness. So that’s what I was thinking of as I passed that sign today.
Colette: I love that so much. And I love that you posted pictures on Instagram. Like that just brought [00:02:00] me some joy by seeing it. So thanks for sharing.
Kate: Thanks. All right, Colette. How about you?
Colette: So, as we’re recording, the Olympics are finishing up and I’ve been surprised by the queer joy I felt with the Olympics. One night this week I was starting to watch hockey and then I was like, eh, not super interested. It’s late. I know it’s the, it was the US women’s versus Canada. And so the next morning I just looked up what ended up happening. And I saw Canada won, I’m like, Oh, dang like, oh, we didn’t win. But then I saw a news article that said Gold-winning Canadian women’s hockey team scores a victory for gay athletes. And the subtitle said at least seven players on the Canadian women’s ice hockey team are openly LGBTQ making it the gayest winter Olympic team of all time. And I’m like, that’s so amazing.
Kate: Love that.
Colette: And then the other night I was watching pairs figure skating and Timothy LeDuc is the first openly nonbinary Olympian. And it was so neat seeing [00:03:00] how the commentators just treat it so normal. They said, this is Timothy LeDuc. They use they/them pronouns. So of course we’re going to use that, as well. And they did. And then they act, you know, at the end of each performance, a lot of times they flashed to the family watching and they flashed to the watch party in Park City where Timothy’s mom and boyfriend were watching and they labeled their boyfriend as their boyfriend. And it was just normal and happy. And it just brought me a lot of queer joy and it just makes me happy that people are comfortable to show this side of themselves, at least from certain countries. And that was my great joy.
Kate: That’s awesome. Thank you. That’s such a great one.
Colette: Yeah. How about you, Lacey? Did you have any queer joy this week you want to share with us?
Lacey: I have like several. So I was curious if I could share a couple of.
Colette: We want all of it.
Lacey: I thankfully being out and proud about my queer identities get to experience queer joy, like on the daily. A couple moments to highlight. One, I’m going to fan girl [00:04:00] about your podcast because it was so good. And it has been up to this point and there’s this something like, so awe inspiring to me, I wish I could take this podcast back to 15 year old Lacey and be like, look at this guess what? Queer Mormon women are happening. Like you get to have this, so that’s a huge win. Another one is that this week, this last week, I got to go and speak on BYU campus for one of the cross-cultural slash multicultural classes that the MFT department teaches. And it was like wonderful in all my rainbow swag, I walk across campus. And then in that class, I like today, we’re going to talk about the ethical care of transgender individuals,
Kate: Oh,
Lacey: just like saying it loud and intensely and being like any questions.[00:05:00]
Colette: That is amazing.
Kate: So listeners can’t see Lacey, but we can see Lacey and Lacey had, has the rainbow pin, but the progress pride flag rainbow print. And so I just assumed this is how you go about your business every day is with your… that’s awesome. I love that.
Lacey: Yes. And my pronoun pin, because being in
Kate: Nice.
Lacey: being in a position of power and privilege, being cis, I wanna make sure that I use my power and privilege to support my transgender siblings.
Kate: Oh my goodness. You’re awesome. thank you so much, Lacey.
Lacey: Last queer joy. One more thing. I have a D and D group that brings me so much queer joy because like over half of us are queer and just all the time, whenever any of our characters get to do something really exciting, we just look at each other and just, it’s like moment where we’re like, [00:06:00] I see the queerness. And so
Kate: That is so awesome. Okay. Can we like pause for one moment and talk about that? Because I think that people need to recognize that their hobbies, whatever hobbies you have, there’s going to be a queer group to join. Whatever that hobby is like ice hockey or D and D like, I think that is really crucial for us to find those things that we already enjoy and find the queer people who do those things already. So I, I love that you’ve highlighted that. Thank you.
Lacey: Yeah, can I offer a resource in that regard, at least for Utah queers? So LGBTQ.UT, so huge plug for my good friend, Jordan Jackson. So if you go to LGBTQut.com, you can add the web app to your, your like home screen. Or you can just look at the website, you can go click on categories and they have a whole category for social groups. So if you’re like, I want a queer social group [00:07:00] and you’re in Utah, they’re out there. Just come find them.
Kate: Awesome. Thank you so much. We actually are also listed, Called to Queer is also listed on the app and Jordan is just doing amazing work. So shout out to him for that. And thank you.
Colette: Thank you so much. Like queer joy makes me really happy. And I’ve actually been thinking lately on just trying to find more of it in my daily life. And so I love that we get to discuss this every week and hear from other people. So thank you so much for sharing those.
But we’re excited to talk to you and I know you and I have interacted through social media, both queer therapists and, but I’m excited to hear more of your story. I’ve heard bits and pieces, but we’d love to hear your queer Mormon story in a shortened thing. And then we’ll dive into more if that’s all right.
Lacey: Yep. Yep. I’ve been trying to think about how to do my queer in 30 seconds. Queer.
Colette: No pressure.
Lacey: I got this, I got[00:08:00]
Colette: We’re excited to hear it.
Lacey: Yes. And connection. I used to teach those classes too, the like me in 30 seconds. And they’re like
Colette: yeah. Like the job skills. Yeah.
Lacey: So I was like, I got this.
Colette: I know it’s such a weird title. And so people are like, what? I’m like, it’s an inside joke for people that nevermind,
Lacey: Yeah. mind if you don’t know. It’s
Kate: We’ve never had anybody on here who knew what Colette was talking about, including me.
Lacey: I do. I do. I taught it at BYU- Idaho, cause I was part of their career and internship office. And so as soon as you said that I was like screaming out loud to the air.
Colette: thank you for it. Cause I’m like, ah, maybe we just need to move away from it because no one understands that the job interviewing skills is the me in 30 seconds. You do your quick overview and then you can dive into stuff that makes, that gives me queer joy that you understand my queer joke.
Lacey: Lean [00:09:00] in to the me in 30 seconds. Yes. Okay. So mine is, grew up in Northern Minnesota. Super rural, came out to myself when I was 15 as bisexual. I’m still bisexual and am out and proud now. It’s taken a long time for me to come out, like to anyone other than my spouse. So my husband and I met 13 years ago and I came out to him like right when we started getting like really serious. And neither one of us can remember if it was like right when we were engaged or while we were dating, the timeframe is not like a big difference. Cause we’re Mormon. So anyway, so met in Rexburg, graduated with a degree in sociology, but all my professors were marriage and family therapists pretty much. So later on down the road, when it came time for me to go back, to get my master’s degree, I knew that I knew marriage and family therapy, and I was like, great. I’m going to try that.
Had a good friend who helped me figure out the programs. Long story short, got my master’s, [00:10:00] PhD at BYU and was out the whole time. I was at BYU and made wonderful connections with the queer students in the master’s program. And some undergrad students that I’m still very close to. And then when it came time to graduate with my PhD, I applied to a whole bunch of academic positions, got a couple of interviews, but nothing really took. So then I was like let’s use personal revelation because I have a really strong sense of spirituality. Let’s use that and move through the world being curious about what the next step is. Was walking along center street in Provo, and just knew like I need to be on Center Street and open up a queer clinic here and have it be run by queer clinicians. So we’re doing that and that’s Celebrate Therapy.
Kate: Woo hoo. Awesome. Thank you so much for not only your story, but also for doing all of that work.
Colette: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely incredible [00:11:00] because there are so many great organizations, as I’m sure our listeners know that are helping queer individuals. And I, when I saw what you were doing there, I’m like, it is unique to have it fully staffed by queer clinicians. Non-queer clinicians do amazing work, as long as they’re culturally competent. But I think some people do feel maybe a little more comfortable talking to someone who they know shares an identity with them and to use that, to hopefully get more people getting the help they need, I think is absolutely incredible. And your office from pictures I’ve seen is absolutely beautiful. And how many clinicians do you have currently?
Lacey: So four of us total, me and three others, and then we just hired someone else. So there’ll be five of us. Yes, we’re very excited. Yeah. Thankfully there’s like huge demand. So we have a long waiting list and have enough to bring someone else on.
Kate: Nice.
Colette: Thank you for the work that you’re doing and I’m sure we’ll come back to that, but I’m [00:12:00] also just curious, growing up, Mormon, how did you, we’ve talked to several people who, didn’t realize they were queer till later. Like how did you come to terms and discover your queerness at age 15 and start coming to terms with that?
Lacey: A big part of it is growing up in a non predominantly Mormon area. So my community is there’s maybe a hundred, 120 of us who were active Mormon in a city of 15 to 18,000. So not tons. I had one or two other youth that I was like really close with and then some people that come and go, but so my friend group, my personal friend group, I was the only Mormon in. And everyone else was queer and developed queer identities and like went through that process through our middle school, high school years. And I was like, great, cool. And then I had a big switch in high school going to public from public school to a charter high. And all my professors were really queer affirming. [00:13:00] So like everyone was like figuring out identities, dating people, playing around with gender, like really had so much space to just explore.
And so then it was like time for me to get to like Mormon dating age of 16. And I was like who do I want to date? And I was like that person who identifies as AFAB and that person who identifies as AMAB and all of these different identities. And I was like, oh, great, cool. So what is that? And what does that mean? And then I dove into that.
Kate: Wow. I’m going to ask a question. That’s for our listeners, because we have people who ask us questions, who come out a little bit later and feel like they may have lost kind of that ability to discover for themselves, like who they really were attracted to when they were younger and feel kind of that they have to grieve that part of themselves. And they wonder like, who would I be with? Who would I not be with? Did you, do you feel like you [00:14:00] like gravitated more to people who identified as men because of the church?
Lacey: Yeah. Yeah. So then came like the reconciliation process, right? So saying okay, so queer identity check, but my church doesn’t approve or affirm queer identities. What’s going to happen here? And so I leaned into committing to living the standards of the church, which meant my only dating pool was men. And I say to everyone, cause they were like you like your dating pool is huge, just like all men, all women online, but nonbinary gender expansive humans. And I’m like, no it’s people I’m attracted to, right?
And so that pool with men for me is pretty small. But I like leaned into it. Tried several relationships, was very social, and eventually met my husband in college and just felt that like immediate spark of attraction and it was like, cool, [00:15:00] great. I can do this.
Kate: Oh, my goodness. I’m so glad that we have you on here because you’re just, you have, I think that you have the experience that lots of people are going to want to know if that’s what they could have had as well. So thank you so much.
Lacey: I do grieve. I do wish I could have dated women. That was it. That’s something I also grieve. And I’m grateful for the relationship I have with my husband. So it’s a both and situation.
Kate: Yup.
Colette: Which I think is so important to recognize, because I think so often growing up in a church that is pretty black and white in a lot of areas, I talk to a lot of clients about. Things aren’t black and white. You can have a both/and; you can be very happy in your relationship and be sad about the opportunities you missed or vice versa. And so thank you so much for highlighting that.
This may be a little bit of a personal question and totally feel free to not answer, but I am curious, labels are very interesting to me and I talk to clients a lot about [00:16:00] labels and how they can be helpful, in quickly getting across what you’re trying to say and maybe finding your people, but there are so many different possibilities and I’m curious about your identifying as bisexual versus like pansexual. Could you talk to that at all?
Lacey: Yeah, for sure. So modern day kids would be like, oh, you’re just pansexual. You love. And your dating pool can come from any gender identity. And I’m like truth. But my generation and when my identity developed was when like our option was gay, straight, bi. And there were a couple, like I met, I had one friend who was pansexual and I was like, I don’t know what that is. So I just have stuck with bi and have felt really comfortable with it. And my good friend and assistant director at the clinic, Cass, also identifies as bisexual. Not outing him. He’s out publicly. But has helped me with the nuance of that, that it’s bisexual can also be like one gender and others, like multiple genders. So [00:17:00] it’s helped me, I think, and just feeling like really confident and being able to really quickly get my sexuality across and saying yeah, it’s not straight. And a lot of people my generation and older understand what bisexual is.
Kate: Absolutely.
Lacey: and don’t understand what pansexual is.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And so glad that you brought that up about having the confidence, because I know several bisexual people who have been asked this and they’re like I don’t, I understand the concept, but I feel I understand myself as bisexual. That’s how I came out to the world. So thank you for expressing that.
Colette: Yeah, thank you for that nuance. I just think labels are so interesting and I think a lot of times people view sexuality on a continuum, especially with looking at the Kinsey scale of, okay, you are gay, bi, or straight. But I came across something that talks more about the idea of a gender and sexuality universe and how it isn’t a spectrum and there all these different possibilities and labels. And I love that you’ve [00:18:00] just figured out this works for me and this is what it means. And I hope our listeners can get to a place as well, not using labels to limit, but using labels to empower as necessary. So thank you for that.
Lacey: Yeah, to empower and to connect. One resource in that regard is the Trevor Project’s Coming Out Handbook. They have this all described where it’s some people think gender is this and this or this, but gender is boom, like a blot of colors. And it has some really great questions. So I love this resource for therapists because we can help people work through those answers within themselves, but also for parents, if you feel comfortable connecting with your child, great questions to ask your child. Who are you attracted to? Who do you have crushes on? Do you experience attraction at all? So really awesome questions for identity development.
Colette: And really important questions, because as you’re listing off those questions, [00:19:00] sometimes people will ask me or people in similar situations, how did you not know that you were queer? Like, how did you not know? And it’s because I had never allowed myself to ask myself those questions. It wasn’t until I had a friend literally go through those questions with me that I’m like, oh, maybe that ex-girlfriend, wasn’t just a one-time thing. Maybe I am attracted to women, AFAB people, nonbinary people, and maybe I’m not attracted to men or not as attracted to men. And there’s so much nuance within that, that a lot of people just don’t take the time to do. I remember I heard someone who’s queer had said that someone who was straight asked them or told them, I’m actually jealous of you that you’ve because you’re queer, you’ve taken the time to examine this stuff where as it’s, I haven’t. And that was a very new perspective for them being like you can examine yourself too. You don’t have to be queer to examine yourself, [00:20:00] but I thought that was really interesting and definitely some great questions to ask.
Kate: Lacey. We have a tendency on this podcast to talk about bierasure. And that’s like a kind of a kick for us, because I think there are many women, people who identify as women in the church who are in quote unquote, passing relationships who feel like they don’t get to be a part of the queer community who are part of the queer community. Can you talk a little bit to that?
Lacey: Yeah, I think I don’t want to say it’s twofold because there’s lots of nuance, but one thing that is hopeful about that is that it can keep you safe. So for a long time, being in a passing relationship, kept me safe in communities that were not affirming to queer identities and also kept me safe in the church by giving me the [00:21:00] opportunity to be seen for more than just my sexual orientation.
And so there’s that part of it. But then there’s the like disconnect or missing connection with your community and being part of the queer community. And so I think that’s all a matter of like personal revelation, personal comfort, and when, and if you’re ever ready to do that, that gets to be on your timeframe, but I hope more women feel empowered. And I think they will because of this podcast, as well as like other examples, they say I would like to connect with my community more. And here are some resources or here are some people I can start doing that with. And then that snowballing into a bigger and bigger community within this pretty nuanced, Mormon, queer space.
Kate: Thank you so much. Because. I, this is a really important topic to me. As far as [00:22:00] safety’s concerned, because I think so often the queer community, we fought so hard. Our elders have fought so hard just to be visible. And the call, even from Harvey Milk in the seventies was, come out. Our job is to come out and be seen and create a space for ourselves. And part of that coming out in the 1970s and eighties and nineties was very, is quite dangerous. It’s not always safe to be out. And so now I think that we’ve gotten, 40 years later, we can now really talk about the importance of safety and the importance of being out to the people who are safe and not necessarily being out to everyone all of the time. So thank you for highlighting that.
Lacey: Yeah. I actually had that important conversation this week with a client. And he said like, how do I get rid of the homophobia, the internalized homophobia I have? I was like, you don’t get rid of it. It’s part of who you are. And just like [00:23:00] anxiety keeps us safe when we’re crossing the street, it keeps us aware of our surroundings, aware of cars coming at us or aware of other pedestrians.
I think our internalized homophobia can also act like that and knowing who’s safe and who’s not safe to connect with and when, or when it’s not safe to be out. So that’s maybe like a different perspective, but I think it’s really important for us to listen to that.
Kate: Going off of that, can we jump back into your story where you were at BYU? And I think this is an important place to really talk about what is safe and what isn’t and the problems with the institution of not being safe. So can you tell us how you navigated all of that?
Lacey: Yes. And this comes back to like privilege and oppression. And intersectionality, I hold so much privilege as a BYU student. I am married. And it like temple worthy [00:24:00] to the church. Temple worthy marriage and have children. And I’m doing like all the right things. Can pass my ecclesiastical endorsement with like my Bishop texting me and being like, You good? Cause he’s used me at church, like every Sunday and serving in the Relief Society Presidency. We’re good. And so like with all of that privilege, I get to then say, Yo, what’s up, I’m also queer. And be very out very loud, very outspoken about it, because what do they have against me? What are they going to do? And so many other people, queer people, especially at BYU, don’t have that same privilege. So I’m happy to step into that space.
Kate: Wow, thank you for doing that. Does that take a toll though? Do you feel like that is a toll, could you talk about that?
Lacey: Yeah, it takes a huge toll. Probably the most impactful moment was when the Honor Code changed. That didn’t directly impact me. But it impacted everyone in my [00:25:00] queer community. The clients I worked with, I was holding an LGB support group at the Comprehensive Clinic. So like I was in this space and the toll it took was just. The only metaphor I had and comparison I had to the emotional experience I was having, because it was so intense, was similar to miscarriages that I’ve had. Where there’s this like spark of hope and then it’s absolutely taken away from you. And I would just sit in class and be so emotional and need so much support from the other students and peers in my program and my professors. And they showed up for me.
Kate: Oh, my goodness. I’m getting a little bit emotional thinking about that. That’s that’s it’s trauma, there’s spiritual trauma that’s happening there. And to be in that space and seeing it would be like at BYU would be really difficult.
Lacey: Thank you. It was very traumatic.[00:26:00]
Colette: And I think a very apt analogy too. I had never considered, I’ve never been pregnant before, but I have witnessed many people in that pain of losing a child through a miscarriage or stillbirth. And thank you for sharing that with us. I know that will probably resonate with people that infertility and miscarriages is something that’s so taboo in society. But I think, especially in Mormonism and to just say that so clearly, and not beat around the bush about in their conversation. I appreciate you bringing that up.
Lacey: Yeah, of course. Yeah. It’s and I don’t want people to think it’s flippantly used, right? Like that. That’s how it felt. So I know so many women listening have experienced a miscarriage and do understand that pain. Do understand the physical pain of it and the [00:27:00] like laying on your bed for days and just crying and crying and the emotional pain and the mental toll it takes, right? Feeling like a failure or I failed again. If it’s happened multiple times, that’s exactly how this felt. And so I, I don’t want it to be, I don’t want people to think I’m flippantly using it. Those same emotions came out and I didn’t have control over that. They came to the surface and I wept for days, and I felt physical pain and physical trauma and mental and emotional and spiritual trauma. So that like I’m using it as like that like truest comparison I have.
Colette: Thank you. I am curious, I’m amazed that you were able to use your privilege in the way that you do. I did not feel safe being able to do that in a relatively privileged position when I worked for the church, as I was dealing with my sexuality. And [00:28:00] I think it’s incredible that you were able to do that as a student, but I’m also curious, like what drew you to go to BYU when you were already out to yourself? I think I’m not gonna elaborate on that question right now. What made you decide to go to BYU?
Lacey: Yes. I needed more privilege, right? This is really obnoxious to say I needed more power actually is how I want to say that. I am a queer woman. I am white. I am overweight, which some can see and do see as not necessarily a disability, but other me for my size. And I need cred. I need credibility if I’m going to work in this community and make change happen. And they knew the only way that parents will listen to me and leaders would listen to me, is if I had a PhD first and foremost, and if that PhD was from BYU, because then they would say like, oh, [00:29:00] okay. And like, she being like someone who’s in the church, does have power and can speak to this and we will listen. And not everyone listens, but more or less than they have before. So that’s how I decided to do that.
Kate: Geez it sounds like you’re just a, you’re an activist through and through. Or did you have this growing up? Did you, it sounds like maybe your, the community that you grew up with instilled an activist attitude.
Lacey: Oh a hundred percent. Yeah, my like queer community and my friends and still close to are just powerhouse women. And men and nonbinary folk and gender expensive folks. But for example, like my childhood best friend is a pastor in the Lutheran church, openly queer in a queer marriage, like also a powerhouse in this community. And I love that we get to stand side by side and make change in our spaces.
Colette: [00:30:00] What would you say to other queer people that maybe haven’t been able to find their voice or feel like they can speak up? Do you have any thoughts about that?
Lacey: Yeah. My biggest thought is just if you want to make change. So if that like activism energy is in you and you’re like I don’t know where to start or what to do. I always say what’s your sphere of influence, who are you? Who’s in your sphere of influence. So you don’t have to go out and be anyone different than you are, be who you are, be the identities you are, and start with your sphere of influence, who you interact with daily, people in your family, or in your friend groups or in your communities, or at your schools, right? Like small changes, lead to big changes. So if that activism energies in you, that’s where you can start and it will grow from there. I promise it will snowball.
And then if you don’t have the energy or feel like you don’t, you aren’t in a position of power and privilege, I [00:31:00] would say just find the voices that will enhance your voice. Find the people who understand equity, who understand power, privilege, and oppression, and they will see you for who you are and help enhance your voice so that you can be heard.
Kate: Okay, so here are your outstanding, you’re such a cool person. But also you have the language. Power, oppression, privilege, how to wield the activist vocabulary. For me, I didn’t learn that until much later. It wasn’t actually, until I was in graduate school, I don’t imagine this was something that you’ve learned at BYU. So can you tell us about gaining that activism experience and the language and how somebody can start to think about power differently. Think about privilege differently.
Lacey: Yeah. One of my most formative experiences was right before my masters program, I worked as an AmeriCorps member at the [00:32:00] regional food bank of Oklahoma. For those who don’t know what AmeriCorps is. It’s not. Okay. We say it’s like the Peace Corps, but domestic. So in the United States. it is not that intense. It was a job I went to, I went to this job and it was great. And also got some like additional money for grad school. Right? Like, I don’t know, slow, slow down a minute. Huge experience for me because people had the food bank, got this language, so I got to hear them speak it and I got to see them live it.
So one of the most powerful opportunities of service I had was we would go into food desert areas and bring a semi-truck of food and line up all the food that we had and the produce, and like other, whatever other foods we had meat. If we added milk, if we had it and I ended all up and handed out to the community and then community relationships were built through that.
So then to see [00:33:00] some community members who have become really close friends and family and allies in the community would then bring salsa back from the food that we brought or would then bring their whole church out or connect us to other areas in the community that needed help.
And so like that boots on the ground effort is what made such a big impact to me and then learning the language from them was so empowering. And then that grew through my master’s program and through my PhD program doing it in marriage and family therapy, we are very thoughtful about learning that language.
Kate: So speaking about that. Recently, we’re recording this two weeks after the speech and language department has, or clinic has had to release three of their transgender clients. And from my understanding of that situation, the department itself really had a lot of pushback against that. The department, like you’re [00:34:00] saying understands the sort of language and knows how to treat these issues from a ethical standpoint, where the university from a management or an institutional standpoint really doesn’t have the language or any of that. Can you talk about maybe what that was like in your department?
Lacey: Yep. So as marriage and family therapists, we are bound to follow a code of ethics that’s created by the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. And in that we commit to taking care of our clients, right? To not abandoning them, to being ethically compliant, culturally competent providers, care providers. And along with that, being a queer therapist, I also follow the standards and the best practices given by WPATH, or the World Professional Association of Transgender Health Providers? Forget what the H is, all the time. Yeah. [00:35:00] So in that is, here’s what we do for medical care. Here’s what we do for mental health care. Here’s what we need to do for parents and children. So literally like over a hundred pages of exactly the type of care that we need to give. And that’s what I follow ethically,
Kate: And they go over that. That’s part of your training at BYU is
Lacey: Unfortunately, no. it needs to be, and it’s not. So that training I’ve done on my own and received by working as an intern at Encircle. So Encircle, thankfully, right, is very ethically competent. Well Encircle Therapy is a very ethically competent practice and taught me and encouraged me to read through and then follow WPATH standards
Kate: Okay.
Lacey: Should BYU teach their students that? Yes. Should all MFT [00:36:00] programs teach their students that and all mental health and social work and everyone, every yes. And they should just teach them letter writing for HRT and for surgery. And they said should teach them how to help transgender clients connect with resources within their community.
Kate: Can we pause for one second and talk about you just said letter writing. Can you talk, can you expand just a little bit for our listeners what that means?
Lacey: Yes. The word will also introduces gatekeeping. So the medical field, not necessarily, more so that insurance providers typically will require that transgender individuals and gender expansive individuals who are seeking hormone replacement therapy, HRT, or surgery to help affirm their identity, gender identity will require that they receive letters from mental health care providers and or sometimes their own doctor depending on what they’ll accept. And then I write that [00:37:00] letter out to the surgeon actually, dear surgeon, and then we provide background diagnoses. Like it’s a huge process, but they require that in order for that person to receive that kind of care.
Kate: Thank you. Thank you for expanding on that. Were any of these things, the things you were discussing at BYU this past week?
Lacey: No, but yes. Okay. Part of it was. So what I was discussing at BYU was like a 101 on like gender identity and sexual orientation and a lot of what we’ve covered, like that’s in the Trevor Project’s Coming Out Handbook. So just a lot of like, here’s the basic language and terminology. We go over what LGBTQIA+ well, LGBTQIA2S+ is, and we go over some history about the queer community and then talk about identity development. And then I do talk about WPATH Standards of [00:38:00] Care. So I do let them know if you’re going to be a clinician, you need to be familiar with this.
Kate: Oh, my goodness. You’re doing such good work. Thank you. Thank you for all that.
Lacey: Happy to do it.
Colette: It’s so important. And going back to what’s going on at BYU, it’s been really hard for me to see as a former church employee. I am grateful I left when I did, cause I can only imagine how much harder the last few weeks would have been for me if I was still employed by the church. Just, I just want to say it’s a very hard and messed up situation. The clinicians obviously are wanting and the department wants to provide ethical care and I’m just really frustrated. And I was listening to a podcast for Natasha Helfer was talking to Latter Gay Stories. And one thing she said, I think just really highlights my feelings about it, on if you can’t care for everyone, you’re in the [00:39:00] wrong field.
And I think it’s really hard. It’s hard for me to still speak out against BYU and the church. I really admire your advocacy work. I think I still have some work to do in that area with my own internalized homophobia and fears and things. I don’t know exactly what I’m saying, but I just thank you for the work you’re doing to be hard on institutions that need to be called out because this is wrong. That people that need care are not getting it. And being told, Sorry, you’ve got to go somewhere else, even though you already established care with this provider, we can’t provide care for you. Like it, it just makes me so angry as a clinician, as someone who’s received services from amazing clinicians to just think of the trauma that’s so unnecessary, that’s caused [00:40:00] that’s against code of ethics. Every clinician field does have a code of ethics that talks about not abandoning clients and serving everybody. And to just say, sorry, because you’re trans and you’re wanting these services we can provide for you. It’s just wrong.
Lacey: It is. And I did a social media post about this thing. Like the only handbook I’ll follow is WPATH’s Standards of Care. And that was like a little bit glib, but I’m serious about it, right? Like when it comes to the church’s handbook. Yes. I respect that they have it, but these services are not elective. Gender affirming services are not elective to people receiving them. So like voice training, is that an elective, if it helps affirm your identity and helps you feel less dysphoric, experienced less depression and less suicidality moving through your day and through your life. Same with mental health care.
These are not elective services for these individuals. These are like [00:41:00] needed almost mandatory. I don’t want to say mandatory, but for needed services so that you’re like queer individuals, mental health, physical health, emotional health, spiritual health, can be as top-notch as possible in really hard non affirming spaces already.
Colette: Well, It’s such an interesting intersection that we sit at with the queerness and Mormonism. We’ve talked about the handbooks some before, talked about BYU Honor Code before, and it’s hard when it is so contradictory. And the God that I believe in, the Christ that I believe in, wouldn’t be acting the way the handbook and BYU policy currently sits. And I don’t know how you, how do you handle that?
Lacey: By following the Christ that I was taught to follow, in the Christ that I had a testimony of since I was a [00:42:00] child, like you could talk to my parents. And my mom’s like, Lacey just knew like at three years old, they’re like, Every Star is Different song’s my favorite song. And I’ll Walk With You. Like it’s just in me. I don’t know how else to say that other than it’s in me and I’m going to follow it. I’m going to follow Christ who serves marginalized communities. Who goes to those communities and sits with them and holds their hands and is like, I’m here, I’m here to serve you and like go in peace.
One of my favorite spiritual musical albums is Women at the Well, because it’s all of the stories in the Bible about women who interacted with Christ and it like every single song has that same message, Go in peace. I love you. You are loved. I need you. And so I felt that call all through my like childhood and my teenage years. And I’m grateful that I have this opportunity now to live that life every day.[00:43:00]
Kate: Yeah. So I want to come back to the ways that you look at the world through the lens of Mormonism and through the lens of activism and social justice. Cause it seems like that is fair to say that you see the world through an activist social justice lens. But for me, growing up in Utah, service looked a certain way. For me, it looked like you, when somebody’s relative passes away, you bring them a casserole. That’s what service in my mind looked like. And moving more into social justice activism type spaces. I realized that service is much more structurally aware than that those simple, like not simple, but those gestures almost. Do you see that same thing?
Lacey: Yes. And I learned that from my parents. I saw them serving like traditional Mormon [00:44:00] ways in helping people move and providing meals for people in following through with their callings and responsibilities. And going to those in need and really tender ways. My dad is a home care and hospice nurse, and he knew that there are certain people who he had we didn’t have a lot of money, but if we had some access, my parents shared it.
But like for example, he knew one of the individuals he was interacting with needed a winter coat in Northern Minnesota, it’s pretty necessary item, but he also knew if he gave them any amount of money that family members would come and take that money and use it for their own needs. And so he talked with that individual and sat with them and got some more information about the type of coat that they would want and then provided them with that coat. And like that individual, hadn’t had a new coat in their entire life and we’re talking about someone who’s like in their seventies or eighties.
Kate: Oh Oh my goodness.
Lacey: So I got to see that also.
Kate: So is [00:45:00] all of this part of your decision to join AmeriCorps? It’s AmeriCorps and Peace Corps, lots of people know that early on that they want to do this, that this is what they strive to do. Did you feel that?
Lacey: No, cause I didn’t even know about it, but I did know I wanted to serve a mission always. Because like that’s the opportunity to serve in a really big way that’s like really sacrificial, right? Unfortunately that leads to like problematic stuff of being like a white savior.
But anyway, that opportunity didn’t come. So I like continued to look for other opportunities and this, the AmeriCorps opportunity literally just fell in my lap. A good friend was looking to hire someone. It came with the AmeriCorps bonuses and I like jumped on it. I was absolutely into it. So it was the AmeriCorps position was congruent with my social justice and advocacy, like identities, I guess you could say, or philosophies and perspectives on the world. So in that regard, it didn’t, I didn’t [00:46:00] seek it out. But when the opportunity presented itself, I absolutely took it.
Kate: Do you see? For me, I see this. So I’m wondering if you see it as well. That in Utah, in, within Mormonism, there’s a pushback against social justice and against activism in a way that doesn’t feel Christ-like to me in a way that, that is in disharmony with the church that I believe. So how do we, yeah, how do we deal with that? And do you agree that’s what’s happening?
Lacey: Yes. And it’s happening in other places besides Utah, too, with other large institutional organizations. So I think a big part of it is that being white saviors as part of let me go into a different country and serve people because woe is them. Where I’m like judging their lives and what they have against what I have when they’re not [00:47:00] judging that experience that way, right? Their lives may be just wonderful and fine and don’t need saving or rescuing. And so I think that is one thing that we do need to check ourselves on. And that I guess comes back to sphere of influence. And so you can start by like, in my sphere of influence, like what changes can I make and how can I make adjustments to my community and serve my community in ways that they want to be served. So I right, that’s something we do with being mental health care providers too. We say, meet people where they’re at.
And that means like the same thing we did with the regional food bank of Oklahoma was to say here’s a service we can offer. Where when and how would you like us to provide that service? Same thing here. Let me, I would like to sit with you. I’ll use my power and privilege to sit with you and say like, here’s some resources for you, but what do you need and how can I help you get that need met in ways that you want me to help[00:48:00]
Kate: Yeah, thank you. That was awesome.
Colette: I am curious, you are still active in the church and with this very strong social justice activism bent, serving the queer community. You’re at a very interesting intersection. How do you make that work for you?
Lacey: by following Christ’s example? Like
Colette: You make it sound so simple.
Lacey: Well, for real though, like since I was a primary child, I was taught about Jesus Christ, and I was talking about his example and I was taught that he would go and serve people. I was like, great. I want to go and serve people. Like I want to be like Christ because that’s what we sing about. That’s what we talk about. That’s what we read about in the scriptures. So that’s what I like aim to do, but have also learned how to do that in healthy, meaningful ways, right?
Colette: Can you elaborate on that? When you say [00:49:00] healthy and meaningful, are you talking about different boundaries you have for yourself emotionally, mentally? I’d love to hear more about that.
Lacey: Yes. So healthy, meaningful being like A. Meet people where they’re at. So don’t assume what people need and they’ll just throw stuff at them because you’re like, look what I had to give you. And don’t try to rescue and save people, but also. I saw, as much as I love my parents and saw their beautiful example, I saw them give more than they had the capacity to give. I saw my mom not take care of herself so that she could take care of others and run on empty. And so I also have learned then, again, thanks to my, like the MFT training, to take care of myself so that I can take care of others.
Virginia Citier says, Fill your pot so then you can have something to give. So that’s a huge boundary that I’ve had to set for myself. Say like, how can I have my home be a safe haven for me? [00:50:00] And how can I ask my partner? Hey, I need to sleep today. I need to go on a walk today. I need you to make me breakfast today. How can I ask those things so that I can go to work every day and hold really intense emotions with other people?
Kate: Oh, my gosh. That’s so important. Otherwise you’re just going to burn out. There’s no way to, to maintain all of that energy. So what you’re saying is so important. Thank you. How does that work at home? How do you have those conversations with your husband? Do you?
Lacey: Oh, yeah. Yeah. My whole PhD program was like me saying, I need you to make breakfast every single morning. And if he didn’t, reminding him, Hey, I need you to make me breakfast. And Hey, I’m going to take a nap down. Do you need anything? No. Great goodbye. Or, Hey, I have to stay up and write this paper or I have to go see these clients.
And him also getting to say, Hey, I need some social time. Hey, I need to, although [00:51:00] I am the full-time stay at home dad, I need to get out of the house. And here are ways that I need to be filled so that I can do what I do every day. So we are very explicit with each other on what our needs are so that we can keep going in ways that we need to.
Kate: That’s great. The communication aspect is just so great. This reminds me another question I like to ask folks who are in the marriage and who are bisexual in a sort of quote, unquote passing marriage. Do you both see yourself as in a mixed orientation marriage? And does he, how does he see that?
Lacey: I think we do, only in that, like if we need to identify as that we will for the community, but we are like, we have a spark of connection in really incredible ways mentally, emotionally, physically, sexually. And I wouldn’t have been [00:52:00] forward in this marriage if I didn’t have that. And baseline needs are met and then some, so we have a very tender marriage and a very tender relationship.
And I don’t think we consider it like a mixed orientation marriage between us. He is very excited and happy to meet my needs as a queer woman. And so we talk about that a lot, but then if the community needs us to stand up and say yes, we’re mixed orientation. Here’s how we do it. Here’s how you can, we’re happy to do that, too.
Kate: You are explaining a very healthy relationship that I don’t know is found necessarily everywhere. And I know there are certain folks in positions who would love to emulate this. Do you have any, I mean, asking for needs to be met and to place certain boundaries is definitely an aspect of that. but how do you even begin to start having these sorts of [00:53:00] conversations with your spouse?
Lacey: We’ve grown a lot, right? So we’re 13 years into our marriage. I went through a master’s and PhD program. He’s been through a master’s program. So we have learned a lot in these 13 years. We also had the advantage of both being severely overweight when we first got married. So we had to ask each other for help in ways that was, I think a little bit different than other couples do, because there are physically some things that we weren’t able to do and had to like, say, Hey, this is kind of a vulnerable thing, but can you help me with this? And then learning to be in that space together, vulnerability. So that got built over time.
We also had nine years before we had children. So yes, long intense experience with infertility, but very intense, fun, playful marriage for a long time before we had children.
Kate: That level of vulnerability I think is[00:54:00] really what connects people. And I don’t know how often some spouses are able to do that, to offer that amount of vulnerability. So maybe, perhaps folks who are listening can just recognize that there does need to be a starting point of vulnerability where there’s a safe space created for both people to come and offer what it is that they’re insecure about, what they’re nervous about, what they can and can’t do, all of those sorts of things. Especially I think this is important for men or husbands, people who identify as husbands, to recognize that you have the opportunity and skill and availability capacity to to show that vulnerability and that insecurity and that, that creates a connection with your spouse.
Lacey: Heck yes, it does.
Colette: I’d love to hear being a queer mom. You did, [00:55:00] I don’t know if you want to talk more about your journey with infertility, but now that you do have, I think, is it a couple of kids?
Lacey: Yep. Two kids. I have a four year old and a one year.
Colette: And what is that like being so openly out and proud as a bi woman too and a mom?
Lacey: Oh, it’s awesome. It’s awesome. Cause like we get to have rainbow flags up and have rainbow Christmas lights and mom goes to a rainbow office. So like we talk, we used that imagery cause they, I don’t know that they understand the LGBTQ letters are and what they mean.
And the chosen family, we have includes a lot of different names and labels for people that we just get to use, like all the time around them. And so I’m hoping that they’ll just pick up on that and maybe someday we’ll get to ask or have them ask questions about why is that person use that name? Or why is that person my TT and this person, my uncle and this [00:56:00] person, my auntie, right? Like why do, why are they those people to me? And why do we use those names for them.
Right now, then they just get to love. Love other people, love themselves, love their parents. So we’re mostly in that space. The big, I think the big fun thing that I get to do right now with my young kids is talk about gender. Because gender development happens by age of four and five. And so I get to do that with my child who’s my oldest Dex was assigned male at birth and I got to ask would you like a short haircut? Would you like, like longer hair? Like mommy has, would you like, like when I go to the store, what clothes do you like? Other people see you as a boy, how do you see yourself? Boy, girl, nonbinary individual?
And we have all those individuals to then say like, do you feel like your TT, Joey? Or do you feel like your uncle Cass, right? Do you connect with them at all? And Dax doesn’t get all of the nuance, but he gets to say like, Oh, I’m [00:57:00] Dax and I’m a boy. And I want short hair, like Reed my cousin or like he gets to answer those questions. I don’t answer them for him.
Colette: What parenting right there. Let your kid answer their own questions. Don’t tell them who they are. Let them tell you.
Lacey: Yeah. He knows who he is.
Kate: I I’ve actually seen a couple of really great parenting units that have done this. And the kids who are able to come to the parents. And it’s true that eventually LGBTQ doesn’t actually mean anything to them. It’s just so natural that their world is ordered this way. That it’s just oh Yeah, this is the way that I work. That’s like this other person that doesn’t necessarily need to be, I work this way because we are both nonbinary or because we’re both this or that, they just see the world in this way, which is just like super cool that your kids get to grow up in that world.
Lacey: Yeah, I think it is too. And I [00:58:00] hope it is for them. And I know we’ll also make space if they’re uncomfortable with it. And talk with them. If they develop political views or philosophical views that are different.
Kate: How about going to church? They haven’t really started Sunbeams or anything that you don’t have anybody who’s that age
Lacey: Not necessarily. So Dax is Sunbeam ish age, but we’re also like still in COVID and I am really protective of them. I will openly admit to being a helicopter parent, especially around health. And we’ve dealt with enough, like bad, like colds and your infections over the last six months that we are not attending church. We are watching it over zoom and participating as much as we can. And watching the Friend to Friend on YouTube that the church puts out for primary aged kids. And we sing primary songs and read scriptures. But like right [00:59:00] now we’re the main source of information for our kids.
Kate: That’s true.
Lacey: That may have to change.
Kate: They’ve grown up in, in a pandemic world. So you really haven’t had the, they haven’t had the chance to explore outside. Yeah.
Colette: Which is an interesting opportunity because I’ve noticed a lot of people who grow up Mormon. Parents sometimes, and maybe this isn’t true, maybe I’m overgeneralizing, but I’ve seen a lot of parents almost hand over some of their teaching to the church instead of teaching as the parents it’s oh, the church is teaching this, so I don’t have to. So I love that you’re being so conscious about no, we’re the parents, this is what we believe. This is what we’re teaching instead of just letting whatever happens, or be said.
Lacey: And for now we have more control over that than we will when they’re older.
Colette: Sure.[01:00:00]
I definitely want to hear more about the work you’re doing with your therapy practice. With, I know you started an online directory if you want to talk about that. I, you’re just doing so many different things that I think would be great for listeners to be aware of.
Lacey: Sure I’ll plug the directory first. The directory is called Queer Mormon Therapists, and you can find it QueerMormonTherapists.com, as easy as that. And it is small, but growing, which is so exciting to me. And we looked at our analytics and there’s people from all across the country who are looking at it and looking into it. So that’s fun. But it is going to be and is a directory of all queer Mormon therapists. And each one of those has a lot of nuance. So queer being any identity of the LGBTQIA+ community You as the clinician need to identify as queer, not just queer affirming clinician.
And then Mormon also gets to be nuanced because so many queer people aren’t comfortable in the church, for [01:01:00] very good reason. We include in there practicing, believing, non-believing, ex-Mormon, convert, right? A lot of different identities around Mormonism. And that way, so someone who is LGBTQIA+ or who is a parent or a family member, trying to understand the community can find someone in their state, again, small, but mighty, in their state that fits some of those identities that they can talk with, to get to understand better.
Kate: Awesome.
Colette: And so obviously potential clients can use that as a resource to find someone, but also, I know as you are growing, if you identify in this field, please go and sign up. It’s free. I’m on there. You can change as your identity changes, you can update. And I’m grateful to be a part of it and to know.
And of course, therapists don’t have to be queer or Mormon themselves to understand and work with the clients, but some clients do prefer to have [01:02:00] people that have the same identities as them, which is understandable. So it’s another great way to either find a therapist or potentially put yourself out there for clients. So thank you so much for putting that together.
Lacey: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I just got asked so many times like, Hey, do you know a queer therapist, queer Mormon therapist? And I was like I could give you this list of a couple of people or like, I didn’t even know who all identifies as queer and Mormon. So, let me just put it out in the world and let’s see what happens. And then I could just give people like a link, go check out this directory, find someone that you vibe with.
Kate: Cool.
Lacey: And then as for Celebrate Therapy, I love it because you walk in and it’s like the gayest space ever. So often clients say that they’re like, wow, this is a gay therapy practice. Or this is the gayest room I’ve been And I’m like, this is what you get here. And that immediately sets the tone, right? Like immediately sets the tone because what they see is that I get to [01:03:00] fully express my queer identity and they’re safe to do so too. And whatever they way they want to.
Kate: Very cool.
Colette: So we’ll make sure we include links to those resources in the episode notes if people want to look up either of those resources. But we just so appreciate all the work you’re doing and the education you’re doing through so many different avenues.
What else did you want to talk about that maybe we didn’t ask you. These interviews are always so interesting. We’re like, we have no idea what’s going to happen. We just talk. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, but what didn’t we cover?
Lacey: I feel like we covered a lot, so I’m happy with we’ve talked about.
Colette: Kate, how about you? You always have such good questions and I don’t want to shut it off early.
Kate: We have gone for a while, but I do. I think especially as a nonbinary person, there’s a lot of talk about thinness in the nonbinary community and the what passes as nonbinary is being androgynous and being thin. I don’t know [01:04:00] where that came from. I don’t know how that works, but there is a big movement within the nonbinary community to be much more what we call fat inclusive. I don’t know if you use that language or what language you would use. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that and how you see that shaping coming out.
Lacey: Yeah, for sure. So I did a podcast with someone who is a little more educated than I am on eating disorders. And unfortunately, people in the queer community do have a higher rate of eating disorders because of some of the toxic cultures that have been created within the communities all individually and also collectively.
So like gay men also really struggle with eating disorders because there’s this idea that you need to look at or be a certain way before you will be attractive to someone. And so I agree yes, the moment for nonbinary people, is thin. And also I don’t want to say straight for sexuality, but like straight body. So [01:05:00] not a lot of curves. And yeah, very androgynous. So I think we’re just trying to be like inclusive in general, by asking, like, how do you want to present, what does your gender expression look like? And also then, empowering clients by expressing my body in ways that are like really celebratory. I’m not hiding or being ashamed of my body. I’m celebrating it. And talking about how does your body look to move? What foods does your body like to eat? Does your body like to rest, right? What are the ways you like to use your body as well? And what does your body need? So it’s really a lot of body positivity.
A lot of understanding the trauma that you’ve experienced in your body and the experience every day from transphobic societies, and then also understanding any like personal trauma you’ve experienced in your body and then like the messages that you get from the media or from family, or from like your [01:06:00] church culture. And so we’re just like slowly go through all of that and get to this point of celebration with your body.
Kate: Ah, I love that so much. Is intuitive eating then part of that is that a movement that we’re still…?
Lacey: That’s something like, again, I don’t want to speak to it fully because I am not like trained in working with eating disorders. I think intuitive eating is a beautiful thing that we’re learning how to embrace. I do think it is tricky when you have experienced trauma to trust your intuition because it has been skewed. So there’s some work that needs to be done. Trauma work that needs to be done. I think to be integrated with intuitive eating, but areas growth edges for me as a clinician to learn more about.
Kate: Absolutely. Okay, cool. In that same vein you were, you had talked earlier about disability. And wondering if this was, if [01:07:00] your body type hat was how do I ask this? Can you help me please? I’m trying to
Lacey: Yes. Yeah. So I don’t see myself as disabled. I am able to move through my world very functionally. There are some limits in some seating spaces and like having to be thoughtful about where I shop for clothing and having to have access to resources, to afford clothing for larger people. So there’s lots that goes into it.
But I think, as we’re on the like spectrum of intersectionality. I am also not in a space of thin privilege. So I have been and get judged regularly for my body type. And I love to show people that like their judgements are wrong. So I love to show them like, look how capable of my body is. Let me show you.
Kate: That’s awesome. I love that you do that with [01:08:00] clients too, that you celebrate bodies. I love that you use that phrase that we’re celebrating bodies, because I think I know that for me, that’s been a real struggle. I think anybody who experiences gender dysphoria, has a really hard time celebrating their bodies. And so learning how to do that is really important and doing it on these different levels.
Do you have any other advice for us as a whole, how we can be better about celebrating other people’s bodies, especially bodies that aren’t seen as often, or are judged more harshly than other bodies?
Lacey: I think you just it’s the same thing is like meet people where they’re at. You ask, like, how does your body like to move? Can I do that with you? My body individually, like personally, my body loves to swim. So I love when people were like, Hey, let’s go swimming together. Like I would love to come swimming with you. I’m like, great. Yes, let’s go, right?
So meeting people where they’re at in that space, but also understanding [01:09:00] if someone is saying like I, so someone who’s experiencing dysphoria on this, if you’re in, for example, like a swimming environment, if they start to experience dysphoria and need to pause the activity to like, be totally okay and understanding about that, too. Say like right now I’m experiencing joy and then holy crap. For some reason there’s been a shift and I can’t explain it. I need to be done with this activity and I’m like, cool. I totally understand that. What else, what would you like to do now? Or how can I help you work through the, just this dysphoria or just sit with you while you experience it. So it’s a lot of communication, a lot of conversations, a lot of vulnerability, but I think that’s what we get to do for each other.
Kate: I think so too. I think that one thing that’s I’ve come back to often is, in Mormonism, how important our bodies are. That our bodies and Mormonism are supposed to be a fulfillness of joy. We’re supposed to experience [01:10:00] joy in our bodies. And I think that so often that gets placed aside for Latter-day Saints, for whatever reason, that we think that our bodies need to be and function in a certain way, and that they’re failing us if they don’t. And I think that those folks who experience gender dysphoria feel that on an even more intense level, but I really appreciate that you’re working, especially with gender expansive folks, but also being able to recognize and talk about, and constantly linking back to the body and what the body wants and needs and enjoys. I think that’s something we don’t talk about enough. What does your body like to do? What gets your body excited and all of those things. So thank you for delving into all of that.
Lacey: Yeah, of course. And it is a multicultural experience. So culturals cultures all across the world, struggle with this. Struggle with skin color, struggle with [01:11:00] body type and like the ideal type for that society. So this is something I think, as clinicians, you really need to understand the nuances of the culture you’re working within to understand some of the struggles that they’re having around the messages they’ve received from the greater society and from like the nuanced society that I’m in now, like working in Utah with queer people and the messages they’ve received around their bodies.
Colette: Which I think we definitely don’t recognize enough. Kate said, growing up Mormon and our bodies are supposed to bodies are a part of the soul, but being in a very fat phobic culture, and honestly, religion or state, when you drive down I 15 and see constant billboards for cosmetic surgery and the mommy makeover. And then you add in any queerness to it on top of it, it’s hard. [01:12:00] And I really appreciate the health at every size movement, but that is also really foreign to me when I feel like I’ve grown up in a very fat phobic culture.
And I was talking to a friend this morning on a walk cause she and her wife have decided to get healthier. They want to go on a diet. And so they’ve been doing that and I it’s been interesting to me the feelings have come up as they’ve been talking about it. And I’m like, I know that I’m heavier than I’ve been in the past. And so part of me is like, oh, maybe I need to, too. But at the same time, I’m trying to embrace my body as it is. Like I’m not at any health risk right now. I’m still very active. And I’m heavier. What does that mean? It’s just, and I don’t have the gender dysphoria, but I have some, just a lot of thoughts and feelings about my body. And so I really appreciate this discussion that I’m still wrestling with and sitting with. Just very interesting stuff to think about.
Kate: But also, yeah, we have to be more open and honest and talk about it. I don’t think that we use the term fat [01:13:00] phobic often enough, we don’t talk about fat shaming, often enough. We’re scared of the term fat. These things all perpetuate that, that same culture.
Lacey: Yup. Yup. I love that. I love that we’re talking about it now. And I love that social media is providing space for individuals to share and celebrate their bodies.
Colette: Yeah, I appreciate that. And that’s where I’ve been getting a lot of thoughts and education. I remember seeing a meme recently that someone’s like, I call myself fat and someone said, oh no, don’t call yourself that. You’re beautiful. She’s like, I didn’t say I wasn’t. Why are we equating fat with ugliness?
And there’s just so much to unpack, and I’m sure we could have a whole nother discussion about that, but thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and knowledge in this area and personal experience. I think it’s definitely something we don’t talk about enough because there is fear of even addressing that.
Kate: But I also want to give a shout out to nonbinary folks who are [01:14:00] listening, that it’s not even just a problem within the nonbinary community. It’s a problem within the larger culture, reflecting on who gets to be nonbinary. You don’t have to meet some measurement to get to claim nonbinary status. You get to identify as nonbinary at any point. So I want to make sure that is clear and understood for the nonbinary community. And I’m so appreciative Lacey of the work you’re doing and being so mindful and aware of that and how it, how those things intersect with gender dysphoria.
Lacey: Yes. 100%.
Colette: And circling back to my queer joy at the beginning. That was one thing I really appreciate about Timothy LeDuc being openly nonbinary because a lot of people would look at them and say, okay, assigned male at birth. They’re a male. They are a man. That’s how they identify. Because we have certain perspectives of how people should look. And I love that they just claim their identity of I’m nonbinary it doesn’t matter [01:15:00] what I look like. I’m still nonbinary and I don’t want to take up space that Kate, you could probably better talk to, but I think that is a very important thing to be aware of that you don’t have to look a certain way. You don’t have to act a certain way to claim a nonbinary identity or to claim a queer identity.
Kate: yeah.
Lacey: The fun part of that though, within a queer community, is to say labels are fun also though in like being able to share how you like to be, how you’d like to express yourself, or find ways to talk about the ways that you express yourself. So what I’m thinking of is like high femme, soft butch, like some of this language that’s in the queer community that I love so much. So I love yeah. So I love that I get to walk into a space and be like, what’s up, I’m a Butch woman. And people are like yes, you are. Look at those shoes you’re wearing. Or look at that obviously shaved head.
hat.
Colette: I seriously love your hairstyle. I comment on that earlier.[01:16:00]
Lacey: Yes. We get to celebrate each other and then honor the fun, playful parts of that are like deeply meaningful to us individually.
Kate: Yeah. Butch is a label that I claimed early on in my non binary experience. And I’ve just, I just, didn’t not, I just stopped using it. It wasn’t as helpful to me as now as it was earlier on, as I was reading about earlier nonbinary movements within the seventies and those sorts of things and who was claiming the sorts of gender identities. And so butch as I was going through, that was like really impactful for me. But I agreed that it was like, so it was joyous to try to just play around with those labels and work with them and figure out what fits and what doesn’t fit. So thank you for bringing that up. Okay, anything else?
Colette: This has just been so fun.
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