Kate: Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, genderqueer, and intersex experiences. I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/they.
Colette: And I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: Today, we’re talking with Deb Asper and we’re so excited for this conversation, but before we jump into that, we want to start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Colette, what brought you queer joy this week?
Colette: That is a really good question. This week’s been hard. We’ll have this come out probably in like a month, but this is the week that there was some rough news with BYU, excluding trans students from the speech clinic and just a lot of, hard and heavy news. And so I was trying really hard to look for the queer joy when I just felt so heavy.
And I think my queer joy was just how many [00:01:00] people and allies stand up when there is hard things in the queer community. Because it was heavy and a lot of people didn’t recognize what was going on because there’s a lot of other things going on Mormonism. And my queer joy was seeing the people stand up that did stand up, trying to get coverage and just helping me realize I’m not the only one bearing this burden because it can feel isolating when there’s another hard thing happening in the queer community, if that makes sense. So that was my queer joy mixed in with the queer pain.
How about you, Kate?
Kate: What people might not know is that we bring our queer joy to this, but we don’t know what the other person’s going to say. So now I’m going to react to what Colette said and change my queer joy for this week. So, I’m going to switch it to, I had a moment because it was such a hard week. It was heavy. And we were talking [00:02:00] about Brad Wilcox and I, on my personal Instagram account, made a pretty vulnerable video about it. And I found out from somebody else that that video had been posted in a private group that just said, Hey, please send this person support. Please go to this page and send support. And I didn’t know that until like a couple days afterwards, but I had received so many messages that it was just like, Oh wow. People are, are feeling what I’m feeling. And they’re willing to talk about what they’re feeling with me and not just hold it in, but they want to express that with me.
And so just that community. I think almost every week that when we talk about our queer joy and how it relates to community. And that community support was just so needed this week. So I appreciate all those people who reached out.
Colette: I’m so grateful you had them and people are just so good. That’s one thing I really appreciate [00:03:00] being reminded of, of just how good and kind people are, because so often we see the not great sides of people. And so to have people just reach out, that’s, I’m so glad you had that.
Kate: Yeah, me too. Really grateful for it. All right, Deb, you’re up? Do you got some queer joy?
Deb: Oh my gosh. First of all, just absolutely. This is just so joyful. My queer joy is just being here with the two of you, the energy that you guys have and the space that you created. This is like a huge joy for me, for anybody who supports the queer community.
But I do want to shout out I think that Colette saw that on my Facebook, that I had this amazing experience to go and hang out with a group of women that are, we coined ourselves, the bad-ass goddesses. And I just really want to, they’re just like these amazing women. Who have fully embraced me. And I can honestly say in my very seasoned life, yes, I’m older. That I had never been this [00:04:00] embraced before by a group of women who accept me fully for my queerness, for their kids queerness and the queer community. So it is the, one of the most amazing, delicious, spectacular things I’ve experienced almost in my lifetime.
Kate: Oh, my gosh. I love that. I love that we can keep having new and better experiences too. That’s awesome.
Deb: Yeah. Even when you get to this age,
Colette: You have a very youthful energy though. So we’ll go off of that, but I really am so excited to hear more of your story. I know a little bit, because you did an Affirmation break-out session a few years ago. And I was still very closeted. And I was like, she just seems awesome. Another therapist queer, she’s so confident in herself. And so I’m just really excited to hear more of your story and how [00:05:00] you got to where you are.
Deb: I appreciate that. So interesting to be able to come back to this place because I moved away so many years ago and I, you know, when I left the church. Yeah. I guess so. But the church back when I came out was like, mm bye-bye. So as an interesting definition, as we’ll talk later in this podcast, but I just am so impressed with the two of you.
I’m not trying to do the therapist thing where I switch it over and flip it on you guys. But you know, When you first asked me to do this, I did a little bit of a research on you guys and listening to some of your podcasts. And I was just really impressed with the work that you do, but I’m just going to make a simple request to Kate that if she can adopt me. Because she’s gone to Spain and she’s in Romania now and she wants to paddle down the coast of these areas and I’m like, can you adopt me please? And then, Colette, thank you so much for hearing my presentation at Affirmation and still [00:06:00] wanting to meet, to be part of this interview, to have a little quirky sense of humor. So just again thank you. I appreciate when we can connect with these we all have what in common is to support the queer community and finding resources for them. So I, my heart can’t thank you. enough. So I wanted that to be.
Kate: Thank
Colette: Yeah, thank you for being willing to join us. I know we, we don’t have a lot to offer people when we’re like, Hey, come be in our podcast. Just take this time out of your day and talk with us. And so we’re always grateful when people say yes. But to get going, we’d love to hear your queer in 90 seconds or the queer Mormon story so that we can give people an overview of you before we dive into asking more questions.
Deb: Perfect. Okay. Buckle up. Cause this is whew, because since I am seasoned, I’ve got to do this quickly. So
Colette: No, we’re not timing you. We’re not timing you. It’s [00:07:00] okay.
Deb: I am queer and I came out to my family after I played basketball at the U of U and then I bought myself another year when I got recruited to play in Europe. So I thought, Oh, good. Another way to really not have to address this issue. It was a little bit of a, Hey good. One more thing where I don’t have to either be questioned why I’m not going on a mission or getting married. I was like, I’m playing pro ball in Europe.
So I dated many men but my first encounter with a woman was in college. And I, if I could, if somebody were to say, what’s the one word that you could use for your college experience was terrified. And that’s too bad because I was trying to navigate these feelings of, being drawn to a woman. Really drawn. Like I had a lot to compare, I had the data, my researchers, I know what it felt like to be [00:08:00] with a man and to have that connection, but then to be with this woman, it was like surreal. I was like what’s that about? And it’s wrong. Right? So it’s like, it is, it doesn’t feel wrong, but boy, my church is sure telling me that it’s wrong. So I would try to balance it with being the best athlete. I could be, that if I’m super great at this, and then I was being asked to speak at firesides and things, I’m like, I’m gonna do everything to create the biggest smoke screen ever. So no one will ever think that I’m gay.
So then when I finally said uncle, I just really couldn’t handle, lying, the double life, which I’m sure you guys can relate to. And I just lying to my family. It was just this heavy burden that just got too heavy. So I hired a family therapist. Maybe that’s a little bit of foreshadowing why I’m a family therapist, but I did disclose to my parents and my two sisters, I had two older sisters, that I’m gay. [00:09:00] Don’t remember a lot of that because I think I dissociated most of the sessions, just put my hands over my eyes and cried the whole session.
But my parents suggested that I go see the church psychologist at LDS Social Services. I’m so grateful that I had educated myself enough to know that it’s not a mental health issue. That being gay is not, dysfunctional or toxic. And it seemed like that was what our sessions consisted of, was educating the therapist. And so when my parents were told, which I’m still to this day going was HIPAA violated. And my parents were instructed to, since I was choosing to be gay, to not welcome me within their home or the church.
And so that’s when I decided to move to San Diego, that would be a good time for me to leave because I just love my family with my entire heart. It’s too painful to stay in the same state. [00:10:00] And so I moved to San Diego to pursue my master’s, to become a marriage family therapist. I did meet my partner, Linda, about 30 years ago. We had a child. I biologically gave birth to Madison, who’s 24 years old and lives in Athens, Georgia.
Professionally, I worked at Primary Children’s Hospital as a psych tech in Utah, which really gave me this insight to, we work with these kids. They seem to get better. We put them back with the family and they end up back. So I was really wanting to see how I could make a difference systemically to help, the parents and the kids all do much better. So that’s why I chose family systems.
I did research for two years finding best practices for kids who were abused. Then when I got my masters and my license, made an appeal to Children’s Hospital here in San [00:11:00] Diego to be the first family therapist, because I said, Hey, if abuse happens to the kid it affects the whole system, so I’m smart enough to make a job opening there. And I was hired as the first family therapist. So I’ve had the big push at Children’s Hospital to look at things systemically. I worked there for about 17 years, and then I have been in private practice working with couples, families, kids. I specialize in EMDR, which is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing for trauma resolution, which is highly effective. And I’m working with athletic trauma since I’m an old athlete, but I carve out a portion of my practice to attend to the queer community, which I really passionately love. Whew! There we go.
Kate: Nice. Way to go. That was a lot to fit in such a short amount of time. But I have to say can I be adopted? [00:12:00] Now I want to know if I can be adopted by you.
Deb: Absolutely. I’m always looking for more kids to, to bring into the fold. That would be my pleasure.
Colette: Thank you for sharing your story and I’m excited to dive into it more. One reason I reached out to you was because I think you bring a very unique perspective. A lot of the people we’ve interviewed so far have come out a lot more recently. And so I love your perspective of what was it like to come out in the, was it the eighties?
Deb: Yes. She’s going to date me.
Colette: Sorry to let the secret out, but I think What a different time and the fact that it was so hard on you and your family, that you moved out of Utah to try to preserve a relationship. I think a lot of people who are queer, do you understand that dynamic can be really tricky, but I am just excited for you to be able to speak more to what was it like to come out then, in the eighties, [00:13:00] when, homosexuality had just come out of the DSM as a disorder in the seventies, I think, so still very recent that way. I’d love to hear just what that was like for you.
Deb: Well, let’s see, it’s funny now that I’m in an age where I will be doing this voice of Gather around children and I shall tell you what it’s like when I came out. That’s my old voice. Could you guys tell? And Yeah. I really was impressed, when I was in Utah just recently and trying to have these markers, because I just, when I left there was a lot of pain involved with, Utah Mormons and all that. And coming back to this place with these beautiful women and my family has made that turnaround where we are all reconnected again, but I really thought and hoped that there would be bigger strides within the LDS church.
And this is not a blame. And let me just make a disclaimer, on this [00:14:00] podcast that I don’t believe in blame, but I am a big fan of responsibility. Maybe it’s the old college basketball player in me where we can call fouls out of love, and calling a foul doesn’t mean I hate you. It means that I love you so much that I want us to know how we can be aware of the harm that’s being caused anybody and what we can do about it. That’s my big passion.
And when I was there, I went out to dinner with some very good friends and their beautiful gay son who’s 19, before we were going to Hamilton, that was a fun adventure. And this beautiful young man, Joey, told his story about how much he just wanted to be a part of the Mormon culture and his family. And I’ve never really heard anybody work so hard in my life, just so that he could belong. And I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s still to this day, [00:15:00] this tough piece where there still feels divisive. And I want to be part of that solution part of the solution, or how do we still help families still stay if they want stay committed to their religion, but yet not reject their kids. And that’s very important to me.
So going back to my experience, I guess I was just comparing and contrasting like now I was hoping that would be significantly better now, but I’m sure in some cases it is, but again, I said I was terrified that my family would find out. I knew when my family would find out being a betting woman, that I would lose them.
So rejection. The literal impact of rejection hits that part of your brain, that experiences physical pain. So if you were to fall and break your leg, the anterior cingulate would go, Oh my gosh, I’m in so much [00:16:00] pain. And that’s exactly where rejection hits. It is painful and it causes a lot of pain. So my brain in that very developmental time was fearful. How well do we make decisions when we’re fearful? I can testify not the best. So the developing brain is very much effected by that. And this is why these types of venues will help calm the brain down. And so hopefully we can help, especially the youth make better decisions. So I, I have a great deal of compassion for my family now. Back then in my developing brain, I was like, What you’re rejecting me. And so I went through the whole stages of grieving, but today I have a great deal of compassion for my entire family who was told by the church leaders to. You can’t have Debra be part of this family or this church. So Yeah. it’s a [00:17:00] mixed message, love your child, but you can’t accept your child.
And I think through education, the brain looks for facts, doesn’t it? If I don’t have a fact, my brain does a Google search and my whole goal is to how do we educate people and families to never ever have it on the menu to reject their child. That’s just not an option. I take it off the menu because it’s like spam casserole. That it should just not be on the menu at all.
So for me, there was really no role models. When I didn’t even know what to call my feelings of attraction. Cause there was no Will and Grace on TV. There were no people in Bountiful, Utah to model what homosexual would look like. And it, when you did see it, it was always tainted in this really horrible way. So that old saying, you cannot be what you cannot see. [00:18:00] It was definitely a tough go to think well, what does this mean? If I’m that then how am I, using drugs and alcohol and am I having these relationships that last two weeks and move on? And so I didn’t really see a lot on the menu.
Colette: I think that’s helpful. And then I’m also just curious. What was it like when you didn’t have those role models and then you moved to San Diego, how did you meet your partner and how did you come to terms with, okay, this is what I’m doing when, this is decades before same sex marriage and partnerships becomes more normalized. And to raise your child with your partner. What was all that like for you?
Deb: Well, yeah, it’s just really hard. I think I’d like to bring up this event that happened to me in graduate school. I was still closeted because you just never know how you’re going to be treated. And so I was [00:19:00] in one of my favorite classes with my favorite professor and we were studying this theory by Jay Haley. It’s this five stages of development. You meet somebody, you marry them, you have kids, they launch into the world and then, hopefully they will help take care of you when you’re aging. And so I’m sitting there in class going well, that really makes the queer community look pretty messed up. Totally dysfunctional. Because like you said, back in my day, you couldn’t date openly. Wasn’t sanctioned to be married. And then kids. Oh my gosh. Heaven’s forbid you can’t. So I bit the bullet, I walked into my professor’s office and I said, Hey, Dr. Terry, this model really makes the LGBTQ community look really nice stuff. And she’s like, Ah, and I thought, oh, crud here it comes. She’s gonna judge me. And she goes, Deb, there is your thesis right there. And she says, Write how homophobia affects the development, the [00:20:00] natural, healthy development of the gay community, queer community, right? When you don’t have choices, can you make good choices? And if you’re stigmatized, if you were categorized is dysfunctional, what choices do you have? And most often we internalize that and she asked me, Deb, which of those stages is the most difficult for you? Because I did come out to her and I said, not having children. I go That just devastates me, as I have loved my sister’s kids. And I forgot to say my sister, my oldest sister is a civil rights attorney, just, unfortunately we lost her a few months ago to cancer and she never rejected me. So out of my family system, she stayed very connected to me. And so I helped, the kids. I passionately loved [00:21:00] her children. And I always thought I would be a mom work at children’s hospital, hung out with kids all day. And so when my professor asked me that, I said, Oh, not being able to have kids. It’s just devastating to me. And she says why not? Why won’t you think about it as an option? And she pointed out to me that I did internalized homophobia, that was my I adopted and took on that belief that will gay people don’t have kids. They don’t get married, they don’t have happy lives. And it’s like, Oh, I can put that on the menu now. And I’m living proof that I have a kid.
Kate: Wow. That’s pretty remarkable. So did you end up writing that thesis?
Colette: I know Kate and I both want to read this now,
Deb: It really was very empowering and ironically, my [00:22:00] sister did a lot of the proofreading, so I really want to shout out to my sister up there in wherever she is. Thank you for helping me get through graduate school.
Kate: Wow.
Colette: Can you talk more to your thesis? What were your findings or I am so intrigued by this.
Deb: Thanks for asking. What really was fascinating to me being a queer community is we’re a very unique minority in that most. All minorities basically can go to their parents. So if I am, a person of color and most often, we come from our parents with color. We could say, how do you deal with racism, Mom, Dad? So being queer most often, we don’t have queer parents. And so that’s a very kind of unique situation to know how to navigate homophobia and other types of bigotry in this world that [00:23:00] we face. And so I found that out.
Another reason that I really wanted to write this paper was that there was a woman who recently had a heart attack and she was in her seventies. We met her one time and she called us and said they won’t release me from the hospital unless I have a place to, to go and recover. And so we said, Of course come into our home. And it, you guys, you sit there and think, Oh, wasn’t that nice of us? No, it was the most amazing thing for me to sit and listen to this woman who was in her seventies. She came out when she was 16 in New York. Her parents put her in Bellevue Mental Hospital.
Kate: No way.
Deb: Oh yeah. And she received ECT, electroconvulsive shock therapy, to make her straight. And it was probably one of the most humbling things. So that’s the stage of the lifecycle. She had no one to care for her. No one to really be there [00:24:00] in her, latter stage of her life.
Colette: That’s I so appreciate you highlighting that, that not to compare stories, but I think it’s good to know our queer history. So often for those of us, because we don’t have the family system that is maybe more aware because they generally aren’t queer themselves. We have to seek out the history and realize this is where we’re coming from. This is the homophobia, the internalized homophobia queerphobia you’re experiencing comes from systems around you. When society thinks it’s okay to put you in a mental hospital. When you don’t see examples of people around you, that you can be partnered and you can have kids. And that’s one reason I just love your story because you really forge your own path. There weren’t examples. And now you’re in a great place. You’re able to share [00:25:00] a little bit more of your story, and I’m just so honored that you’re willing to share that with us.
Deb: Well, thank you. I think that you can tell that my humor has gotten me through a lot of tough times. Maybe I’ll write the second part of the musical, The Book of Mormon. They wanted to get together with the south park people. And it is, it can be, really quite comical in the story. I not making fun of it, but yet if I can find a way through it with not disregarding, not pushing away my experience, but just, being able to get to a better place. I think that’s a nice way to say trauma resolution is evident when we can go, Hm. That’s an interesting place that I was in and I found a better place to get.
Kate: So it’s interesting to hear your story [00:26:00] being in Romania because Romania doesn’t have same-sex marriage. I feel very comfortable in Eastern Europe because it’s 98% Orthodox or something like that. It’s a familiar, comfortable thing to be in a community that everybody understands one religion, coming from Utah. And that the influence of that religion has on not just all the people who live here, but therapists and the way that state institutions run. Like how do you develop a code of ethics, those sorts of things here. All of this where Romanians going through right now is behind where the United States is. And I see a younger generation of Romanians coming up right now who are just, Gen Z is just so unafraid to talk about who they are and be vulnerable. And I love that [00:27:00] generation for that, for all of us. I think that they’re going to heal all of us.
But I see your story playing out here for those older generations here. And part of that is there, isn’t a code of ethics surrounding therapists. So you have two interesting therapy stories within your story. The first one is you see a therapist early on. And then they say go to the church counseling. And you said that you were educating the therapist about these sorts of issues. That’s what I see that taking place here. I know that LGBTQ folks who are going to therapists are educating their therapists. I know that’s happening in Utah, too. It’s happened with me. I’ve been to therapists and I’ve said No, you’re not. You don’t know how to affirm or whatever. So can you talk about how do you educate the systems? We’re [00:28:00] talking about systems that aren’t welcoming, affirming, understanding these things. So how did you go through that whole process?
Deb: I think out of observations, maybe that’s my research background is when you notice you observe somebody holding on so tight to something, and if you say, why are you holding on so tight to that? You are going to get a horrible response, right? It’s cause they’re going to come at you, Because it’s important damn it, and then how dare you question me.
And so out of curiosity, it’d be, I can see that’s important to you. And I hoped with my entire heart that my family could see. Cause I did get pigeonholed a bit. Oh, do you have, you’re just angry. Oh you’re just an angry person, since, leaving the church and it’s oh, I think I justifiably, when you lose your community and your family and all, and I think that’s a stage of grieving, actually.
I don’t [00:29:00] think, I know. I’m being sarcastic. So I know that’s a part of the grieving process and I, so to educate is to find it yourself first, but you can’t make the other side do it. And I think even within my own family system, I still think to this day, we’re still navigating that how to respect each other in spirituality. I have the ability to listen to my family and hear about their church callings and respect their church callings and support them in their church callings. And I, I would, I think, cause I’m having a hard time with that other part of the equation is did they? I don’t think they believe that I’m able to because they’re not sharing with me those pieces of their story that either they think maybe I’m still angry or I just, I don’t know.
See, that’s the part. So what [00:30:00] I hope I’m answering this Kate is that if I keep doing my best to say, I can see it’s important to you. I believe it’s important to you. Teach me more about that. Then they start like maybe releasing that grip a little bit more so the, hopefully they can see it in a little bit better light.
Because they’re doing this white knuckle thing it’s they can’t really see that. I want to be a bridge. I really do. My oldest sister, Denise was a bridge to my family. When I came out, she got them books. She talked to them that there’s no blame. And, I will never be able to thank her enough for bridging my family back is, as best as we could with the information that the church was grappling with with, in my position of not wanting to be a part of an organization that was hurting my [00:31:00] community. So we’re still, I think we’re still working on that bridging, even today.
Kate: Every time you’ve been brought up now, How things haven’t significantly changed. It’s really like it’s heavy on my heart every time I recognize that. Yeah, we’re still going through this. It’s been a long time. We’re still struggling to figure out how to communicate
Deb: Do you notice that within your family systems, both of you.
Colette: Yeah, it’s a thing. It’s definitely tricky. I think with the way the church can be black and white, it does make it easy for individuals to want to follow that. Humans, as we like certainty, we like rules. We like black and white living in the gray is uncomfortable and being queer in the church is total gray.
I don’t know [00:32:00] what else to say besides it is tricky. And I joke with people. It’s one way some families navigate it. The, We Don’t Talk About Bruno song from Encanto is basically a queer Mormon theme song. It’s oh, if we just don’t talk about it, that we can pretend it’s not a thing. Things don’t have to change. And it’s exhausting to have these conversations sometimes, to be vulnerable and say, this is why it’s hard. This is why it hurts. And try to educate people about living in the gray. When the church says it’s black and white. I’m not sure what else I have to say about that.
Deb: no that’s a beautiful observation. I love that Colette. Thank you. How about you, Kate? Are you still grappling with how to bridge those two worlds?
Kate: So I haven’t talked about this, but my dad works at BYU. My dad’s a faculty member at BYU. And so it’s not just that my family is[00:33:00] within the church and we struggle to, to reconcile what has taken place for all of my life. We’ve tried and we’re my parents, I think are I do a good job. My family does a good job of affirming me. And they worked really hard over the past few years to understand and affirm. But then you have these systemic problems. Can my family affirm me and then also be secure in their livelihood? So that it just adds like a whole other element and stressor. How much can we affirm you? How much can we support you while still being able to maintain a job? That’s, it’s just why the, the church puts that family in that position. When they’re saying yes, we want to make sure that families are together and safe. And all of those [00:34:00] things, when there are multiple levels of unsafety in my family relationship because of the church.
Deb: So sorry. When I was getting ready to do a presentation for George and Alyson, they founded the Peculiar organization and my sister gosh, it was just a little over a year ago. My partner, Linda flew my sister out and she was here helping me with my presentation. And I just looked at her and I said, why did you never reject me? You, out of the entire family, you chose. She’s still active Mormon. Was till the day she died. And she looked at me and she said, moral imagination. Yeah, there’s obviously a civil rights attorney. I’m like, what does that mean? She goes morally, it was unimaginable to feel like I needed to make a choice. Because it’s not a choice. It should never be a choice morally. It should never be a choice. And I hear [00:35:00] that in both of your stories that don’t put families in those positions. It’s just morally not something that we should ever even have to, choose. It’s like the horrible Sophie’s choice of just don’t make us choose. It causes so much harm to the entire family system to be put in that situation, from employment. You both have shared with me, right Colette, about your employment. You loved where you worked. Did you as
Colette: And I was good at it,
Deb: Oh, fantastic at it. You loved everything about it. So you
got just
Colette: for having to hide part of who I was, minor details.
Deb: Minor. And what was it like to live that double life?
Colette: Depended on the day. I feel like for a lot of queer people, we can get pretty good at [00:36:00] compartmentalizing. And that’s one way to cope, but that’s not the healthiest way to cope having to compartmentalize parts of you and be cutoff parts of yourself in certain situations. We know that’s not healthy, it’s healthiest if you can be yourself in all situations, be authentic and not have to hide who you are. And so it was definitely hard to have to make that decision. And it’s hard that people feel like they have to make that decision around their family, who, the church teaches the family is so important. We should always support, love, be there for each other. And then, but it feels like there’s an asterisk sometimes of unless they’re gay, unless they’re queer. If they don’t fit in this box, that we’ve outlined in the family proclamation of a mom and a dad and 2.5 kids or preferably more, then something’s wrong and family’s not as important. The double standard is just mind boggling to me sometimes of how can we say the family is so [00:37:00] important if we’re not supporting all families and all members of the family?
Deb: Yeah. Wasn’t it drummed into our head since we were this big, like family, families forever was singing that song, families are forever. So it was very drummed into our brains. It’s families, the number one thing.
Kate: And I think globally this is a thing. People grow up and live as adults not very far from their parents. Usually I think average five miles or something from where they grew up or they’re from their parents or from their siblings. That’s certainly my my experience with my extended family all lives within a very short distance of my immediate family. I think listeners who are from Utah will experience that too. How did you gain the strength? If that is your experience? I don’t know if your family is all from Utah. How do you gain the strength then to [00:38:00] say, I need out of this environment and need to move to a completely different place where I might be financially insecure. I don’t have the same support networks. I’m leaving my Mormon community where I feel a sense of safety and security, to go to California at this period of time, because I know there are going to be listeners who are wondering if that’s the best choice for them. And I would like to know if you can speak to that, to their experiences.
Deb: Yeah, that’s a great question, Kate. I, it was a cost analysis. You think how much does it cost me to be near a family that has been instructed not to talk to me, the difference between being alone and lonely. So I could, this feels horribly lonely because they’re right there in my own state. And so it, it really, when I work with people on grief, there’s all different levels and [00:39:00] types of grief, but to grieve someone who’s alive it, it sends our brain sideways. It’s ah, it just doesn’t make sense. Maybe that’s why my sister came up with that moral imagination. That doesn’t make sense, to reject each other, we should be pulling for each other. And so Kate, it was like a cost analysis. It’s like being in this state that I see, I really don’t have a place. I literally do not have a place because c’mon, Utah is pretty densely Mormon, right?
So as I look around, it’s like there is no place for me. And so I could choose to do that and take that energy. And I respect people who stay in within their culture and work through, these like mama dragons, holy smokes. If they’re living within this community, pushing for alliances for the queer community, whether they’re in the church or left the church, they’re pushing and I highly, I [00:40:00] just don’t think I had, ironically, I don’t think I had that stamina. So maybe I, it was the easier for me with my cost analysis. I’m going to take that energy and find my way. And maybe it was good to get out of the way of, my parents, because maybe they felt also obligated. Gosh, she’s there and we’re not allowed to talk to her. I don’t know. Maybe I did do a little protection of them in a now they look systemically as a family therapist Ooh. And I was definitely protecting myself. I needed to protect myself, my mental health, my physical health,
I became a runner. It’s like geez Almighty, probably walking through ran like how many marathons, just trying to run away from the pain of it all. And Yeah, it just made more sense. It was more congruent for me to be a way so that I could find my place. My parents could maybe find my place. And like I said, Denise really helped bridge back with books and talks. And [00:41:00] she asked them to pray in the celestial room one day about what should we really do with Deb? And it was like love her. And that was the year that my parents flew Linda and I back. 1992. And my dad unfortunately the day after Christmas died of an aortic aneurysm we were all, I know it was the weirdest story. We’d come back. We’re all accepted, we are all together as a family. And then what that day after Christmas,
Kate: I’m so grateful that you had that experience, but yeah, like it, must’ve, that’s all sorts of different grief. That’s going into that as well. Wow.
Deb: Yeah. Yeah. So I just really want to tell your listeners that grief isn’t just for when somebody dies. It’s in so many different places in it. Cause then we can at least understand when we’re angry or we’re depressed or [00:42:00] we’re just like trying to barter and that we are grieving. And I think that when we don’t understand that we start judging ourselves, why am I depressed? Why am I so angry? Why instead of going, what makes sense to me? I need to find support like this place and resources that I can have that validation that I, I have every right to be angry and hurt and sad. And frustrated.
Kate: Yeah.
Colette: Yeah to go off of that, that reminds me one thing my therapist told me once that really resonated. And I now tell clients when they need to hear it is the idea that we can grieve any change. Any change is some sort of loss, even if it’s a happy change. The change of getting married, that can be a big change. And so you may be losing like some of the freedom you [00:43:00] had when you were single or maybe some of the relationships. And so I think sometimes we, I talk to clients a lot about you don’t only grieve deaths, you can grieve any change, any loss. And so I think that’s a very powerful thing to point out. So thank you for bringing that up, that we need to be able to mourn.
Deb: Yeah.
Kate: I think going along with this dramatic parting of your family, like this is a pretty dramatic move to California, but you had I want to, I’m going to say privilege of being able to go to Europe and have these different life experiences where you got to see the world outside of Utah. That was my experience as well. I needed to get out of Utah and my, I was like, I’m going to Europe and I don’t care how I’m doing it. I’m getting into Europe. And once I was out of that environment, I realized how different the world was than inside of Utah. So you had seen all of that and I think [00:44:00] that you can, like you said, it’s easier to imagine things when you’ve seen it. So what happens when you get to California? How do you feel? Do you, are you uncomfortable? Are you freaking out? I don’t know. That’s a big deal.
Deb: I think that, when I was preparing that talk for George and Alyson for Peculiar, they, I use the stages of grieving. And, when I made the analogy, since, here in California, we have the lifeguard towers. And so the metaphor was the church leaders told my parents to give off the lifeguard towers as ice. So the parents are those top tier we’re watching over you. We love you. We’re going to tell you if there’s sharks out there. Riptides and then, so when you have that relationship, taken away, my stage of grieving first was like screw this. I don’t need no stinking lifeguards. And to heck with that. And if you’re saying that God doesn’t love me, who needs God? And, the [00:45:00] people who profess that most are in need of it most, we’re wise enough to know that now. That, yeah, that was my anger phase, but I can’t think of a better place for me. I love the ocean. I’ve learned how to surf I on the water constantly.
And I, but it’s still, it’s not a healthy place to be when you’re stuck in your grieving. And I’m a firm believer that something you said Colette about that, not talking about things, that really lends to horrible outcomes. I will make a great, hopefully a good analogy for Superbowl today that, if a linebacker is coming at us, and I’ve asked clients as many times ago, would you rather have a linebacker coming at you if it was visible or invisible. Especially the guys look at me like I’m an idiot. Of course I want to see the linebacker. Why? So I can do something about it. So I have a choice. I can see it coming. Because if we do the hands [00:46:00] over my eyes and Lala, I don’t see it. I don’t see it. Don’t talk about it. It’s going to knock us on our, you know, what. Can I say ass on the air.
Kate: Please.
Deb: He’s going to knock us on our ass. And then we wonder why we’re on our, on our, our asses, so to speak for our family, for why we’re not connected, why our community I see, a lot of faiths are losing people your age and younger because they’re like this is ridiculous. I don’t want to reject the queer community. is just dumb. So I agree with you, Kate, that this generation is let’s talk about it. Let’s figure these things out or else we’re not going to be a part of it.
And yeah, so I navigated my way through my grieving process to a certain point. And I’ve told you just a minute ago, I think I made the realization today. Oh, thank you. Maybe I need to pay you guys for the session. That I’m still trying to bridge certain things with my [00:47:00] family that have been interrupted by, the belief that the church has about the queer community. And if we can stay together, if we can figure out how you can still be a member of the church and still accept your queer child without feeling like you’re being disloyal to the church, so that, it’s a, win-win basically. I want to see how we can find these ways, but here’s the reality. Yes. The church does there. Here’s I’m going to do the basketball thing. I’m going to call a foul. It will always lead to a poor outcome when you reject any group of people for any reason that any time. Am I calling the foul? Yes, I am
Kate: It’s not just grief, that’s trauma. So the grief and the trauma are going hand in hand in your story, in all of our stories that the there’s the grieving of your family, as [00:48:00] well as the trauma of being rejected. And how do you react to that? How do you deal with all of that? It’s going to be different for every person, but also it’s not easy to, there’s not a right way to do it. I think that there’s not a lot of room for queer people to make mistakes. To feel like they’ve made a mistake and they’re trying to navigate this new world for themselves. When they’ve had a whole moral system, a whole community system of saying, this is how things work. And then you have to go outside that and try to navigate that for yourself. You have to have a lot of self-compassion. That’s a hard place to be, and you get to navigate that for yourself. And sometimes you’re going to do things that you don’t like, but you have to figure it out on your own.
I think that’s actually an advantage for queer folks than it is for somebody who obeys every single rule and doesn’t ever get the chance to explore what works for [00:49:00] them and what feels good in their, their body and their soul, accepting something that they have been rejected for.
Deb: Wow, Kate, you just bring out the super important developmental reality. When we were taking those classes and child development is like that individuation process and thinking really like intense faith-based religions, it’s oh, don’t you step out of line or else you will not be accepted and loved. And so that individuation piece gets really dislocated and thrown out of whack. So there is that important piece to move away.
I talked to clients about how it’s like doing a flip turn in a swimming pool and you push away from the wall. If the parents aren’t strong enough for kids to be able to push away, which is like I said, healthy, normal development, we all lose. A parent can’t feel successful to be able to let them push away. I’ve done many parenting classes on parents going, it [00:50:00] hurts like a son of a gun when your kids think you’re the biggest idiot on the planet. I go, but that’s called individuation. And they’re like you said, Kate, they’re finding their way. And if I can help parents to not take that so personal, actually see it as man you’re making your kids feel safe enough that they can do that. Good for you. And then they’re like, whoa, that’s a good thing. Yes. it is have a lot of sports analogies.
Colette: I love it. And I think that’s huge. I talked to people about that a lot that the church actually encourages enmeshment, not individuation. And so it can be really hard to get to that point of individuation, to be able to figure out who you are as an individual, not just, I’m a member of this family, I’m a member of this church and that’s a really important developmental task that I think, it should be happening.
You see it first happened when someone’s two, right? And they’re in that terrible [00:51:00] twos of trying to figure out their own rules. And then again, it should be happening developmentally again as a teenager, but. In the church culture, you’re not really supposed to be an individual. You’re just supposed to be like the borg right? Like you’re just one piece of, I don’t know exactly where I’m going with that analogy, but it’s really then hard when people come out later, in their twenties, thirties, forties, because they never figured out how to individuate. And so it’s really an interesting discussion I have with people about it’s okay, that this is hard. Developmentally, you should have done this decades ago, but the church doesn’t encourage that.
Deb: And that’s why I’m so grateful that you’re doing what you’re doing and helping validate people as they go through that stage, where they might just really start judging themselves and thinking they’re an awful person for wanting to push away and individuate. So thank you for the work you’re doing with people. [00:52:00]
Colette: Oh, and thank you. We’re a fan of therapists here, so.
I’d love to hear more. I know you had to push away for your own sanity. You had to get out, move to California, but I also know that you actually did come back to the church a little bit more, and I’d love to hear more about that story and how you got involved and how you’re back in the LDS community a little bit more.
Deb: Thank you. I, a lot of my friends have heard this story because it is probably one of the most meaningful events in my life. The most meaningful event was obviously having our daughter the most amazing spectacular thing. That’s helped me to resolve my own internalized homophobia.
But this event occurred in 2016 when my mother had broken her rib and I was going to be the dutiful daughter. And we were taking turns as the three daughters to [00:53:00] help care for my mom. And so it was my turn and I’ll be honest. Going to Utah was like, how Navy Seals, you just get in, get it done and get out. So I was in, and then my oldest sister, Denise, because my middle sister, Diane was there. Yes, we have the three D’s. We got the D names covered. So she was flying in and we had a day to just connect.
And she looked at me, she says, Deb, the salt lake gay pride is this weekend. Why don’t you change your ticket? And let’s march with Affirmation this weekend. I’m like, basically, hell no. My mission is done. I’m getting out. And she just kept pestering me about it. And then I had a college buddy who I’m still like best friends with and she happened to call, I think there’s something divine about the story that I said, Sue her, name’s Sue. I go, Sue, get this. My sister wants me to march in the gay pride. I was being totally like downplaying. [00:54:00] And she goes, oh, you got to do it. And I’m like, really? She goes, no, I went last year, Deb. It was the most amazing thing that I’ve ever witnessed. It’s such a beautiful parade. And so I’m like, okay. So how many times do I have to get knocked over the head before I concede? So I changed my ticket. I know I said I’ll do this to my sister, goes down to Michael’s and make signs like. Our family is forever and my sister is a child of God and of course it’s really nice things, but I’m being a little turd ball. I’m just being resistant. And I just I don’t want to do this.
So we get there and I’m still just doing this thing. We’re standing with Affirmation, you know, of course I’m a nice person. I’m making chatty chat, but again, I still have that mentality. I’m going to get it done and get out. Okay. So we start the parade route and this is a tough one, cause this is my sister who, I’m not trying to be dramatic, but I owe her my life. I think about if she hadn’t [00:55:00] accepted me back in that time, that was so instrumental of my life. I kind of wonder where I’d be or if I would be.
But so we first step on the parade route. She puts her arm around. And she says, Deb, look up and see everyone who is for you. And there was something that was so healing with those words that this burden, it was like this heavy fog just literally came off me. It was almost like I’ve had cataract surgery this year. And it’s you know how I can see like Oh, my goodness. I can see. And I looked up to the mountains and they were gorgeous. And I looked around to all these people and they were beautiful. And I am not a baby or wimp, but I cried the entire parade route.
And at the end of this parade route, I watched these beautiful [00:56:00] people with their son was a man and a woman with their son. And I, you know, you’re just announced with interactions and they’re just was staring at them. And this, it was like this magnetic energy that I just, they saw me, I saw them. And George Duessen wrapped his arms around me. And I don’t think I’ve ever had a hug like that in my life. There’s a saying that, someday somebody’s going to hug you so tight that all those pieces of your heart, your broken heart are going to mend back together. Then I embraced Alyson and then I met their son Stockton. And I could just feel that he .Was struggling, but they were there. They were there in full support, loving him at the highest level. I could see their passionate love for Stockton. And I was just so humbled and it was healing for me to witness that. So we shared number w it’s just we must’ve been friends, I’m going to say [00:57:00] this in the preexistent. Cause we were just like, bam, we were there. And we became very good friends very quickly, but literally two weeks later they called me to say that he had completed a suicide.
So here I am thinking they did everything right. They loved him at the highest level. They were there supporting him, being there for him, affirming him. So I didn’t sleep for weeks because my brain went sideways. Like how could this happen? They were doing everything right.
So I called them and I said basically the old athlete in me said, put me in the game, you guys put me in the game. However you need me. However you want me. I am in it. I need to come back. To this place that I saw that was harmful, but now I see it as an opportunity to have some bridging occur. So I can’t tell you [00:58:00] the love that I have for George and Alyson for being able to convert their pain. I mean, that’s the highest level of pain that one can ever, you know, experience, but they’ve somehow converted that to educating, doing what they can to make sure that others don’t need to experience what they have. So that’s how I got quote, unquote, activated back into the church again, because I want there to be solutions for this still a divide. There’s still, it’s still there and it’s causing pain.
Kate: Wow. That’s a super powerful story. Really emotional, really powerful. I see some interpretations from the way that you’ve told that. And you can tell me if they’re lining up or if they’re misaligned. But for [00:59:00] me, if I were in your position, that anger, that resentment, the folding your arms that I don’t want to do this, is a response to a trigger of, that here is a situation for me. I would have been thinking I would have loved this when I needed it. I would’ve loved this however many years ago when I needed it most. And sometimes I get that way sometimes I’m like, yeah, sure. You’re affirming now. Where were you when I needed you? So I understand the, this response you’re having.
And then to see all these people and see the things that are different and changing and you feel that moment of hope to have it literally dashed away and in just a few weeks. But to see that hope of the people, that the people that rejected, that people that were, that said your family can’t love you anymore. You need to separate yourself. Those [01:00:00] people were there. They’re showing up to this pride event to then say, okay, now the people are here. Where’s the structure. There’s clearly a structural problem here. And to come back and say, I’m going to, I want to be a change in that structure is so commendable on your heart. I’m so grateful to have you here in the space with us. I do think that there is my personal view is that there is a divinely inspired role that you’re playing here. So thank you for taking up that call.
Deb: Gosh, Kate, when you play it back. Wow. It was very healing to have you play that back so beautifully. And I want to thank you both for being able to allow me, I think this witnessing there’s power in witnessing, isn’t there? And valuing and validating. And so it’s definitely a shared experience with the two of you. So [01:01:00] thank you.
Colette: Yes, definitely. That’s one reason therapy I think is so powerful. I’m like, if I can just be a witness, if nothing else. And that’s one thing we love about this podcast is being able to witness so many stories. And I’m so grateful you’ve connected with George and Alyson. They for those that don’t know, they’re a Mama and Papa Dragon who are very dear in the Utah community. And they helped provide a safe space when I needed one. And they’re doing some really neat things with this organization they’ve founded called Peculiar, and I would love to hear more about your interaction with that. And it sounds like you did a presentation for them. I think they’re doing some really neat things. Could you talk more to that?
Deb: Absolutely. So when I said, put me in the game, coaches, coach George and coach Alyson, and they said, okay, we’re going to send you to Arizona to speak at the ALL conference. I think it was connected with Affirmation as well. And you guys got to remember, I’ve been out, I’ve been out for a long [01:02:00] time and we know what they were asking me. It was really quite scary to go back into this arena. But the paradox and I’ve often said to my clients is it’s usually what we avoid is what is going to heal us, right?. So I needed to kind of walk the walk I talk.
And so I literally made them this promise. I will always say yes to you. I will always say yes to you. So no matter what George and Alyson asked me, I’m just like, Ok. All right. You see the need, that I can, maybe fill that gap for that need and I’m in. And so I feel very honored to be part of the Peculiar. And it’s pretty much his organization, his background, his board talking about ways that we can bridge. I keep using that word bridge. Cause I just feel like that’s a good metaphor for keeping families together. And the families who have felt like [01:03:00] it was something that they needed to do to follow church leaders to reject. We need to figure out how we can bridge that back so that we don’t continue to have the suicide rate go back up.
George has connected with Harvard University because Michael Ferguson is helping to connect that with the whole push is education. They know an education and correct data that is going to help families flourish and grow in positive and healthy ways. I’m always gonna stay very connected and loyal to this organization because of my love for George and Alyson and what this stands for.
Colette: Thank you so much. I think what Peculiar does is amazing and being able to just like you said, bridge the gap and being able to help people, help family members not reject each other and [01:04:00] provide that love and support that. I don’t want to should on anyone, but that they should be providing each other as family members.
And I love just seeing all the organizations that do pop up to help queer individuals. And I was actually able to march with Peculiar last year in a parade, I think it was the pioneer day per no, it was the 4th of July parade up in Davis County. And so it wasn’t a queer parade. We just happened to be a queer organization within this greater parade. And it was really interesting marching with people who are from Davis County, people who grew up in Davis County and seeing how healing it was for them to be able to march with Peculiar and say, I can’t imagine what it would have been like this huge parade. One of the biggest deals on the 4th of July in Davis County, to be able to see a queer organization, to see rainbows, like that would have meant the world to me.
And so it [01:05:00] was really neat to be able to march with them and see some of my friends who grew up in Davis County just to be like, wow, like this, hopefully we can be that for what I would have wanted. And then to have them, they do monthly Allies and Appetizers. I think they call it where they have. I don’t know if you could speak to that.
Deb: Yeah, they have the theme throughout the year that they choose to address and it has a educational component and, people can pull up, the different videos that address each topic. I’ve had a couple here in San Diego, so they have them popping up all over the world. So you can host and we’re trying to get more and more people, but COVID hit man. And it just, we were on a really good upswing and then COVID hit and we needed to start going more, on zoom. But there is something very powerful about connecting with other people and having that allyship which I think that you can calm the [01:06:00] brain down enough to learn. That’s when we can see what was really a linebacker was just literally an opportunity to come together.
Yes. Another plug for the super bowl. So no, but in all honesty these things it’s, we’re just not meant to do things on our own. And I think that’s why, asking families to separate it, it will, it just can’t ever have a good outcome. Cause parents, I think inevitably really want to be successful with their kids. And kids really need to have their parents, even when they’re individuating and thinking their parents are stupid, we still need them. We need them to stay on the lifeguard tower. We need them to understand that they’re going to, that’s just not an option to be put on the menu to step off of it.
And that’s what I really am hoping that I can help support parents in understanding that they can still [01:07:00] love their religion. That they can still remain up on that life or a tower to watch over their kids and let their kids have the most powerful message on the planet that I value you first.
Colette: I could only imagine how healing that would be to so many people to be able to hear that from their family. And I think that’s where so many, so much queer trauma comes from is that rejection from family members. And so to be able hear something like that. Oh my goodness. I just imagined so many hearts being put back together with like you had with that hug from George
Deb: Yep. Yes. Because, and if there’s anything that you feel like I can do to help the cause, if you feel like, you know, there I, I Kate I do believe that there is a divine connection that we have from the private inception of the gay pride how it has had this ripple effect that Colette came to see that talk. And then I get [01:08:00] to see you Kate. And how do you adopt me for your next European adventure?
Kate: Sure.
Deb: So I do think it’s very divine.
Colette: I agree. And I think that’s one thing that’s so powerful about this podcast is just being able to share those stories. Because I think that’s how hearts are ultimately softened. We can do all the educating in the world as far as here’s the data here are outcomes when rejection happens. There’s some great work of course, with Peculiar, with the Family Acceptance Project. But I really think ultimately what changes hearts is stories and loving people up close. You can’t hate someone that you love and know their story. And so thank much for just being willing to share yours and continuing to be vulnerable because it’s not easy to share stories. It’s not easy to share here’s the really hard things I don’t want people to know necessarily, but that’s how I think hearts and minds are [01:09:00] changed.
Deb: I appreciate your observation about this. And I don’t know about you Colette, being trained as a therapist and you’re always just really trained to keep all your stuff like right over there and you don’t share your stuff you don’t. But I think in, in, in certain situations it’s very healthy and helpful, right.
And so when George and Alyson asked me to start speaking, I really needed to click into this new way of expression. So thank you, Colette, so much for acknowledging that it wasn’t easy to look in for many different reasons. Not only just the therapist part, but I have, put that over there. And I thought it was taken care of until I was marching down that parade route. And it’s I guess that wasn’t. But it was such a neat opportunity. I love growing. I love experiencing things that are challenging. And so I guess I have learned to look at the linebackers as, opportunities of what we can do to [01:10:00] become a team and addressing those things that are such big issues, big problems that feel like they can take us down, but oh, no, they’re not going to take us down if we all a block for each other.
Colette: Thank you for continuing that analogy. I know you kept referring to the linebackers. I’m not super into sports, let’s be real. And the being able to watch out for each other to see the linebackers coming and be able to block and protect those who are the most vulnerable. That is a very powerful image for me. So thank you.
Deb: I use a lot of metaphors just because that the brain, when we talk about such difficult things, the brain often goes into that. fight or flight or freeze mode. And so when the brain doesn’t have to search for a meaning, it’s oh, it’s even though Colette, you’re not a big football fan, but you knew darn well what a linebacker is, it’s coming at you. But so see then it calms the brain down enough to go, Oh we can look at this. We can talk about these things.
Colette: I love that.
Deb: One last, one thing that I can [01:11:00] think of is there’s a concept it’s called vicarious traumatization. You’ve probably heard of it, Colette, where even like hearing about I that’s, what I was experiencing after Stockton died is this it didn’t happen to me, but that, that ripple effect of traumatization. And so if you think about that, that, if we continue with that, the, we all sink down. So I want to coin vicarious healing and attentiveness that if if we can stop that downward spiral let’s get involved. All of us find ways that vicarious healing.
Look at the, my bad-ass goddesses. They took this a 60 year old heart and took care of a part of it. It was probably your age or even younger when it was so hurt and rejected. It’s like, Well, huh. So I think we can all become and I still have more and more ideas with George and Alyson of how we can attend to [01:12:00] gosh, just so many people within the queer community that need that healing.
The conversion. I worked with a group of men who dealt with conversion therapy. Oh my goodness. What I learned from them. And if we can create, I’m going to call it surrogacy, believe it or not. Right now, I feel like we have this surrogacy right now with this companionship of sibling-ish or whatever relationship we’re sharing right now, we are connecting and attending. It’s a good example, even right now.
Colette: Definitely. I think there’s so much power and healing that can be done in community and Kate and I, a lot of times our queer joy is about community. And I think that’s partly why, is because there is so much pain, a lot of times in the queer community, but coming together, we can have that vicarious healing. I know for me, figuring out my sexuality to be able to be around queer people that were not [01:13:00] experiencing a ton of internalized homophobia. I was like, wait, that’s possible? And so just being able to be in community is so healing.
Deb: I love that, Colette, because you’re saying that’s on the menu? Really? I get to choose that? Oh I don’t have to just look at spam casserole?
Colette: Yeah, that’s another good analogy. I’m going to be using spam casserole. Awesome. Kate, did you have any other questions?
Kate: Yeah, I don’t have a question. I just have one last comment. Deb, you’re just such a cool person, but also like you’re very humble. Your story is really powerful. We didn’t even get to really talk very much about being a collegiate athlete and getting advanced degrees, all of these sorts of things. Just living a queer life when it was much harder than it is today, your story is really [01:14:00] inspiring. You’re really inspiring person. And I appreciate your humility, but I also want to bring attention to just how how important your story is to me as a queer person who wants, who emulates you. I really appreciate hearing your story and seeing a life trajectory that I see myself on as well, that I would hope to be on. Yeah. I just want you to know that I think you’re amazing. I know that many people do. And this has been a really cool experience.
Deb: Thank you. Anytime that I can do my old voice in come here, kids. And let me tell you how it was in the past and it’s going to get better.
Kate: I don’t mean to say it like that though. I don’t ever get that impression. I don’t get that impression from you. You’re just such a lively and fun person, but you do have really cool experiences.
Deb: Thank you so much. Yeah. I think that’s what we all have in common. Have you guys noticed that the queer community that has super high achievers often? I think [01:15:00] within the LDS faith that we, my thought is if I think I told you if I’m super great and I achieve at these high levels, either the, A, they won’t think I’m gay or B when they find out I’m gay, they’re like a look at all the great things she did this. Didn’t pan out that way anyway. Yeah. I think we’re all pretty driven and I look at all your accomplishments and I think you guys are also in that same vein. I don’t know if you realize what’s motivating you guys to be so successful. You might want to look at that for your next podcast, but you’re both highly
Colette: Internalized homophobia.
Deb: It’s a big motivator.
Colette: No, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us. I know you have a lot on your plate, a lot you’re doing, and just honored you’d take time out for us. So thank you,
Kate: Yes.
Deb: Thank you. My pleasure. you guys.
Kate: Thanks for listening. We appreciate you [01:16:00] joining us today. If you’re liking these episodes, we’d love it. If you would rate and review Called to Queer on the podcast player of your choice so that people, other people are more likely to find us. We’d also love it if you would share our podcast with a friend who could benefit from hearing these stories, if you want to contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can follow us at Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.