Colette: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Called to Queer, where we hold space for the queer Mormon women, gender queer and intersex experiences. I’m Colette and my pronouns are she/her.
Kate: I’m Kate and my pronouns are she/they.
Colette: Today we are interviewing Hao Lee and we’re so excited for this conversation. But before we jump into that, we wanted to start off by seeing what brought us queer joy this week. So Kate, what brought you queer joy this week?
Kate: Actually, this is an odd one. Because actually this conversation now thinking about this conversation and prepping for this, I was texting Colette yesterday and saying what time are we going to be together? And I realized that Hao and I are 12 hours apart. That means that we are literally on the other side of the world from one another, like as far away from one another as you can be. And how cool is it that we have the shared experiences literally on the other side of the world from one another. So that’s [00:01:00] awesome. That was my queer joy. So Colette, what was yours?
Colette: So my queer joy is I’ve been spending a little too much time on Tok lately, and I’ve been going down the lesbian TikTok rabbit hole, which I hadn’t really gotten into before. And it’s incredible to me how much queer joy there is on that app. I feel like so often, and even on this podcast, as we’ve been talking to people and interviewing people, there is so much queer pain, which is valid and we see it and we want to support however we can, but there is so much queer joy there. Of people, showing off their girlfriends and meeting significant others through TikTok, of doing these cute little random videos together, and it just makes me so incredibly happy.
Kate: That’s awesome.
Colette: And I saw Hao, you were cheering along to the lesbian TikTok. What’s brought you queer joy this week?
Hao: Yes. Lesbian TikTok. Those are the best. I spend too much my time on that app during the holidays. So definitely see how much [00:02:00] joy in the queer community, not only in lesbian community, but in the queer community in general. And I wish that we have more presentation of queer joy out there in the community.
For the LGBTQ youth to know that, oh, you can be this happy and also queer at the same time. So I think it’s incredible how TikTok create a sense of community, a sense of belonging for the people, especially the queer people to know that, they’re not alone out there when they see that and they can be like, oh, I can be like that someday. I can be happy. And it’s just incredible how TikTok does that.
But my queer joy lately is yes, lesbian TikTok and also Affirmation Hawaii just created an event called Happy Holly Gays. And we have this dress code that make the Yultide gay, where [00:03:00] everybody dress as queer as they want to be, and it was in person event. So we gather make a chosen family that we can talk to each other and play games, win prizes, and just have really nice dinner together. The reason I wanted to do so is I realized the struggles in the queer Mormon community that, some of the students haven’t come out with their parents yet, or have to live with parents or family members that hate or have prejudice against the queer community.
So it’s hard for them to be around people like that at home. So I’m like, okay, let’s just create this event so that they can be with that chosen family. And realize that they don’t have to be otherwise they can just be themselves and be happy and [00:04:00] celebrate Christmas together. So that was, that event brought me so much queer joy just to see the LGBTQ youth, the freshmen, sophomore, even the senior, just an advisor to them, during the party I saw them talking and it’s oh, this is so cute. It makes my heart happy. And it should be like this , within the blooded family. But sadly some cannot, experience this. So that’s why I created this, so that they have the sense of belonging, the sense of chosen family, surrounded themselves with people who love them exactly the way they are. So yeah, that’s my queer joy.
Kate: That’s awesome. Thank you so much. I think there’s so much that we’re going to dive into just in what you’ve explained, because I think there’s a lot to unpack about what you’re actually doing there. But one thing I want to touch on that you talk about and [00:05:00] highlight it, is chosen families.
And so this is a concept that many queer people understand, but if you’re new to the community or you’re an ally, you might not understand that we actually call, these people our chosen family or our found family, the people who support us and things. So for those listening, who haven’t found their chosen family, or think that they have to make things work with their family, their blood family, when it’s not, and you feel like that’s on you to make that work, it’s not on you. We all have gone through this process of finding that chosen family. So thank you for bringing that up so that we can address that.
Hao: No problem. Yeah. I think it’s really good that we raise awareness that the work is not on the LGBTQ community, the work on the allies, on the people that have, queer friends, queer family, and people in the community that hold[00:06:00] authority or power over, someone’s school status or someone status in the community. Those people with power, they have to do the work. They have to do a lot of unpacking harmful teaching and be the change that the community need. And I cannot emphasize enough that the work is not on the queer people, but it is on the allies and our straight friends and family, church leaders, community leaders, school administrators, the work is on them not us.
Kate: Oh my goodness. I’m so excited for this conversation today. Hao, you’re just like such a positive, amazing person. I’m really excited for this and there are like a million ways, a million questions that I want to ask you [00:07:00] right off the bat. But before we even get to that, I think it’s probably a good idea for you to share your story in your words, before we jump into asking you some questions. So usually we do a segment that’s called… what’s it called, Colette?
Colette: Queer in 60 seconds.
Kate: Queer in 60 seconds. So we’re going to give you that space to give us your story
Colette: We want to hear it.
Hao: Okay. 60 seconds. Do I have to time myself?
Colette: No, we’re not going to time so just an overview. So then people can get to know you and then we have more spaces to jump off from in conversation.
Hao: Okay, sounds good. Here we go. Aloha from Hawaii. My name is Hao and I am a graduate from BYU-Hawaii. I graduated with two bachelor degree and I am now pursuing my master degree at the University of Hawaii. I spend the last two years of my life advocating for the LGBTQ communities, especially the [00:08:00] LGBTQ students at BYU-Hawaii.
I recognized this needs to do this because, I know that my friends, my gay friends and people that I know at BYU Hawaii were suffering at that time. And I just couldn’t help to risk my status of, schooling to advocate for them because, to be honest, the worst thing is, seeing my friends that suffered at BYU-Hawaii from the harmful teaching or the Honor Code rules that very stressful or that hold the student in the hostiles situation more than serve the student.
So I was like, okay, that’s it. We gotta do something. So that’s why Affirmation Hawaii came along. Nathan and Sarah was the leader of Affirmation reaching out to us and we’re [00:09:00] like, okay, let’s do it. Let’s have this chapter formed and it’s not against BYU Hawaii, or it’s not against the church or anything. We just want a community where we belong. So I started with my work with Affirmation in 2020, and I happen to got elected as the leader, but I don’t believe, in that hierarchy work, whatever. So I treat as like a teamwork, serve the community, the LGBTQ community through events like rainbow day or special holiday, like Christmas or Halloween or something like that.
We try to create queer joy in the community. To, bring very simple happiness, like the sense to the students so that they know that, okay, I’m queer and I don’t have to suffer. I want the LGBTQ youth [00:10:00] at BYU-Hawaii to know that they don’t have to suffer from being gay, but they can just be who they are and just be happy.
And that is all my intention for Affirmation or for the LGBTQ community at BYU-Hawaii is all about. And of course we, have a lot of efficacy and conflict during our time there, because advocacy have to face a challenges. But I’m proud of myself and the people that who have worked with me for getting through all the bigotry and, challenges. So yeah, I’m willing to share more story. If you have any questions, feel free to bring it up,
Kate: I love that you start out with community and we say like here’s 60 seconds and your whole thing is like here’s the community that we’ve built and how we’ve [00:11:00] done it here, which I think we’ll learn throughout this whole discussion. Just the blueprint, I think of how to do an Affirmation chapter, like spot on you have a great blueprint down, but how do you even how’d you even get introduced? How did you come to Hawaii? what made you decide on Hawaii and maybe part of your coming out.
Hao: Oh, thank you, Kate. That is a good question. So I came to BYU-Hawaii because, I did my research. I wanted to be somewhere and all that is diverse. And we got to talk about diversity later, too. So I’m going to save a little bit for later, but yeah, I choose Hawaii for its diversity on the island. And we have a big population of Asians. I’m like, okay I’ll be safe there. I was like, okay I am first generation of immigrants. I need to do somewhere that I can feel safe to go to [00:12:00] school. And I wanted to be like a different experience, from other university. And it was surprising when I got to BYU-Hawaii and we have the diversity, but it’s just in race and, in theories and stuff. However, I was like, okay, Get this done. So I got to Hawaii and I maybe I’m at the wrong school, but I still have my community here. Asian community and the queer community.
That is how I strive through the work of community. And that’s, kept me alive with my advocacy because of the people and the connection that I have here, that share the same values that I do. That kept me going, I chose a BYU-Hawaii and Hawaii, for its diversity, at the first place. And during my school in there, I [00:13:00] realized there are so many things we can improve the community, because the Hawaii state symbol is the rainbow, but it got so political at the school. And I was just like, okay, let’s just make the difference. Because if you chase back to the rainbow symbol in Hawaii, it means transformation, and this is what I hope for our community to transform itself, to be a better place for all, people from different backgrounds, different gender identity, different sexual orientation, different race, different nationalities. And I think that is what, all of that about. You don’t have to get political on the rainbow symbol.
Colette: I love that. I didn’t realize the story of what the rainbow meant with Hawaii. That is wonderful to know. I’m curious, like Kate mentioned, just to know a little bit more about your personal coming out story, how you identify now, how you [00:14:00] discovered your identity and what that process was like, if you’re willing to share.
Kate: Oh, yeah. I forgot to ask for your pronouns too.
Hao: Definitely. Yes, we will have everything answered. So I will start with my coming out So I, my family and I immigrated from Vietnam, and I realized that I am queer when I was in Vietnam. It all came very naturally as I develop special feelings with my best friend
Kate: Every one of us I’ve done story.
Hao: It just remind me of the TikTok sound and they were roommates or they were best friends. But, it all came very naturally. When I was on seventh grade as I, she’s kinda cute, you know, and I want to kiss her,
Kate: Yeah.
Hao: but yeah, in Vietnam we did not have to face the challenge [00:15:00] of being queer is wrong. So of course it’s not talk about it enough, but we never taught that being gay is a sin or being gay is wrong. We never taught that way. I am lucky that I don’t have, someone with authority telling me that being gay is wrong or you’re sinning or whatsoever. So everything came just naturally. And I know that this is true and you know, high school students, they were like, okay there are some queer couples in the school and it’s just rare. It’s just different. It’s not like that bad thing that criminals or something. It’s just different and that’s how we were. I was lucky enough to not having the attack on my gender identity. So that’s why it was so different coming here and seeing all of the political and religious joke goes that the[00:16:00] Mormon community, the queer Mormon community going through, I’m like, wow, this is hate on a different level.
And I was like, okay, let’s just create a community like a group therapy with Affirmation Hawaii, where we can share our stories. And I hope that my story of how normal I came out, inspire others to know that it is a normal thing to be gay the first time. And don’t let people tell you otherwise. My parents is however they did not know because they were affected by the.
And it related a lot of, a lot about a history on, America imperialism, on Vietnam and their mindset like that. They put on my parents because the word gay is translated like pedophile or something in the Bible. [00:17:00] And my parents know that being gay is “peda.” so in Vietnam, the word they try to translate it or say it in a venomous way, is it is better. So my parents know better is is not like a really good thing because of how American imperialism, rooted in their mind.
Kate: Can I ask you a question really fast when you’re talking about imperialism? Are you talking about Western American imperialism more generally, or are you specifically talking about the very real Mormon colonialism that takes place as well? Imperialism that takes place as well.
Hao: Yeah, it’s just a Western mindset that takes place. And Vietnam is where the Buddhism is the largest religion. So, I was a convert when I came here and I was like, okay, love God, love your neighbor. And okay, I can do it. It’s like Buddhism, [00:18:00] like how I was taught in Vietnam.
And I was like, okay. But once I got deeper into the Mormonism, I realized that, okay, this is very exclusive to some population like the queer population or the people of color population. So I realized that difference. So I’m just saying that it’s different when I was in Vietnam and it’s different when I was in America, especially in Utah, when I was converted, I recognize that difference, but I was like, okay, whatever.
When I got to BYU-Hawaii, it got revealed even more because those teaching got there’s no line between religion and education. So at the school, we were taught in this certain way that, gay marriage is wrong and a lot of things wrong with the LGBTQ community.
And I [00:19:00] was like, okay, I’m not okay with this, why am I experienced this? Or why am I experienced discrimination and all of these things that I never like experienced in Vietnam. But yeah, it’s very affirming to have my nationality or my roots as a Vietnamese and our culture to affirm me that it is okay to be gay.
I did not get discriminated in Vietnam. And I just feel so bad for the LGBTQ youth that grew up Mormon and don’t have any stories or don’t have any other Like affirming stories, roots or culture to help them to think otherwise. Now during my advocacy at BYU-Hawaii, I got attached with the indigenous native Hawaiian, and they have such a beautiful queer history that is not [00:20:00] taught at BYU-Hawaii, but it is taught at University of Hawaii.
So according to the Hawaiian history that are queer people, such as the māhū, they have the power of healing in the community. It is a beautiful story. And they carry both male or like woman and men feature. So they kind of like what we call transgenders as more than language transgender non-binary, those people have existed for the longest time in the history until the illegal imperialism in Hawaii happened. And they try to the missionaries and the America government tried to erase that identity and history. So that’s why it’s not talked about enough, but the point is if I’m not like native Hawaiian, or if I’m not Vietnamese, if I [00:21:00] just grew up strictly Mormon, I wouldn’t have struggled like so much. And now I understand why, suicide rate in the church is excessively higher than the national suicide rate. And it’s very concerning to look at it. So that’s, that’s the long story, but I can talk to you more about it.
Kate: Oh,
Colette: And Kate wants to talk to you about this for forever.
Kate: I do. I could talk with you for a long time about this because what you’re saying is also really affirming to me because even though I don’t have that experience, studying history, I see it. You see it across all of these cultures and time that have been erased by our Western education in the United States at the very least.
And so hearing your experiences in both Vietnam and Hawaii to say these are places that have both been affirming is just like [00:22:00] your story is really, I think, going to be so powerful for people who don’t recognize that their history is being queer washed, right? Like we’re being erased from the history when you’re giving us prime examples of places where queer people exist and are celebrated as well. So thank you so much.
Hao: Yeah, you’re welcome. And I was amazed. The more I learn about the history, the more I was like, wait a minute. I can testify that our education, especially in the religious environment, has been filtering out a lot of things. Queer history is pretty much filtered out to serve and fit the system of the school or the religion. So I think it’s really important that we brought back that, that representation, so that our identity to be seen more in the history, it’s very [00:23:00] affirming when we look at the true history of how we have been assisted, for the longest time.
Kate: Absolutely. So you said like you see the similarities between Mormonism and Buddhism, but there are these clear distinctions where it seems like from what I heard from your story, that you felt a connection to this spirituality, maybe, and ideas about bringing people together. When what you’re seeing is that there are people who are excluded. So can you talk about that, like conversion process for you?
Hao: Yes it’s a long learning journey for me to realize that when you actually sit down and care and pay attention to what’s happening around you, you will see it. In Buddhism we focus on, in their healing and create like peers within ourself, peers [00:24:00] within our community and peers within our nation or something like that. So when I was converted by the missionaries in Utah, people were really nice. And they were telling me that, okay, love God, love your neighbor. And I was like, oh, okay. You guys have some kind of like the sense of community over here. And I really like it. And of course with me and my family, first generation of immigrants, we did not have anything at all.
And we were really. Into the sense of community that they were talking about. And I was converted in Utah and I went to church every Sunday and I enjoy the Vietnamese community in the church, as well as, just the community in general. And it was very lovely [00:25:00] until some speech and talks in the church that was so excluded to the queer people.
And I started realizing it because one of my teacher at BYU Hawaii just straight up and he was like, so if we accepted gay marriage, what else we gonna accept in the future? And he was talking about gay marriage. It’s like something is out of control. It is something that is so fearful. And I was like, okay wait a minute. Why no one stand up and fix this? And I was just a student. I was just a sophomore at the time. And I did not have enough courage because I did not want to make a scene or something. but I realized it more when I meet other queer people within the [00:26:00] Mormon community and seeing how much they have been suffering with their blood family. And I just felt really weird. I was questioning the community that I was with. I asked myself a question why so exclusive, why nobody talk about it or something like that. And then I even bring it up to my church leader. It’s like, why no one’s talk about it. And even him saying that, oh, we don’t talk about it. Or, it’s so political. I’m like, why is love getting political? And I was having a lot of questions. And as I learn more in my peacebuilding program and history. I realized a lot of things going on, a lot of wrong things going on and I was like, this is not okay.
[00:27:00] So I am now, I identify myself not associate with the religion anymore because personally I think religion and politics, just people cause, and I think especially politics, I think it’s disgusting. So because it’s taking over human rights and I don’t think that’s okay. So I don’t feel safe enough to be in the community where my identity is not represented.
It’s not talked about enough or, it’s not mentioned by the people with power with authority. I was like, okay, I am out of here. So I just try my best to do my work at BYU-Hawaii and got the degree. I did everything that is in the requirements, go to church or whatsoever. And then I did my [00:28:00] best, all of the standard requirements. And I got my degree. And I never felt so free. Like after receiving my degree at BYU-Hawaii and having it in my hand, I just feel like freedom. And I was like, why I have to feel this way. And just for your information before BYU-Hawaii, I have attended other colleges, just such as Salt Lake Community College and they focus so much on title nine and they talk about LGBTQ and non-discrimination, or even, at University of Hawaii right now, they focus critical race theory. These are the basic, like the baby step to diversity that I did not get to learn when I first got into the religion or when I first got to BYU. So it’s very different. When you have both religions to [00:29:00] compare, you realize that even more,
Kate: I think that for many of our listeners, for me hearing your story and hearing you say that you didn’t grow up with that same sort of queerphobia and that to get that first experience in college and have it be such a shock to the system that would have been so hard, especially like you do feel trapped all of a sudden, like what did, where, what is this honor code that, that,
Hao: Yeah.
Kate: But at the same time, like the fact that you didn’t have that experience that you didn’t recognize our queer phobia as part of these institutions is actually really also inspiring. I think at least.
Hao: yeah. Thank you, Kate. Sometimes during my advocacy, honestly, I feel bad. Even though I did not have that queerphobia experience, but I try my best to listen to all their queer phobia [00:30:00] experience when they first came out, to know how to advocate for them better. Because I know I was lucky. I know that I have my culture. That is so affirming. But it, others, they don’t get this lucky. So I want to listen to that experience so that I can advocate for them even more.
I got some questions from people asking me, why are you always angry? And I told him back, why are you not, because seeing this, why are you not angry? I am angry because why do queer students have to fear. So afraid of being who they are, and I just feel very frustrating. But I learned this when you advocate in a system that is not built for you, your advocacy makes you unique. I definitely had a lot of support from the community and [00:31:00] from the people. So I don’t want to take all the credits. I want to share this credits to other Affirmation Hawaii members that advocate with me. I want to give this credit to the community, the Hawaiian community, the local community that has been with me in this efficacy. And you know what I know, whatever, like system I’m in, as long as I had the community with me, that makes me stronger. So yes, I was concerned about being expelled, but I was not afraid.
Kate: Jeez you’re just part of what is awe inspiring to me is that people call you angry to me when, especially the first time I met you, we’ve only met virtually, I’ve only ever seen this like dedicated and inspiring and happy person. The idea that somebody would call you angry is very [00:32:00] surprising to me because, and not that anger isn’t… anger is important. I’m also angry. There are lots of times when I’m also angry, but I wouldn’t classify you as especially because you haven’t walked away from this community. You had the opportunity once you graduated to walk away and you’ve only doubled down your support for these folks, for BYU students. So I just wanna thank you for that because you could have walked away and instead, you’ve really continued to help. Can you maybe tell us what Affirmation is first? I think there are probably people who don’t know what Affirmation is, and probably there are lots of people who need to tap in if they haven’t heard of it before.
Hao: Yes, definitely. Affirmation is an organization, an international organization that support and advocate for LGBTQ and whether or not they are in the Mormon community, or they identified themselves non- [00:33:00] Mormon, they support and advocate for them. And Hawaii chapter is just one of the 67 chapters around the world. We in Hawaii, we were gonna form a group anyways, but Affirmation came along and they say, okay let us help you. We’re gonna like more tools and connections so that you can view your community stronger. And I was like, okay, cool. That works. And I was the second president and the first president I give, I want to give the credit to Ron. His name is Ron. He also graduated from BYU Hawaii, and he passed pass it on to me. So he was the first president. I give him the credit for forming this foundation. And when I first got elected to be this second president, I just build on already on this foundation.
The [00:34:00] people that came together and I came in and I just built upon it. I gather more connections on the island. I gather more queer people. I created communication. We created communication because I just love my team so much. They just so dedicated. Even though we were going through midterms and exams, but they were there for the community. And I just appreciate them so much that they willingly worked together to create like a better community for queer people. So yes, Affirmation Hawaii is one of the chapters of the big organization, but we have the unique mission or vision to serve the queer people in that Laie community where BYU-Hawaii located.
And we also want to advocate for LGBTQ students at BYU-Hawaii. And [00:35:00] like I said, I, we’re not against BYU-Hawaii. We’re not against the church. In fact, we are a part of the BYU-Hawaii. There are at least like 200 of us. And we want to be seen and we want to make a statement that we belong here, too, which is not talked about it. People not seeing us enough and we just want to highlight our identity. We just want to be visible for the one who cannot. That’s just what we’ve been doing. We’ve been creating just queer joy for each other and always very heartwarming to have the events that very affirming to us, to have each other in the community, like rainbow day, we organize that we passed a rainbow stickers to each other, and we even communicate [00:36:00] to the administrator, the president, and the vice president of BYU-Hawaii saying, we’re doing this and we have this really cute rainbow mask or rainbow sticker. And we want to give it to you like as a symbol of love and diversity, and that’s what we wanted. And I’m sorry, if you have heard some saying this rainbow symbol is political symbol, but honestly what you need to hear is to us rainbow means love and visibility.
So that’s what we all want for our community. And I’m sure we’ll love is not a threat on the campus. So with the administrators and the leaders in the area and trying to transform the community to be a better place. So that’s what we’ve been doing and we hope to do more in 2022.
Kate: So part of this whole process was you [00:37:00] gave a rock to the President is that And he posted that on the Instagram, that BYU-Hawaii Instagram. And then for rainbow day, he posted it again. Is that right? Or the mask I think was
Hao: Yes. He posted on BYU-Hawaii account. Here’s a good guy. He is the first president of BYU-Hawaii in 65 years have mentioned LGBTQ on campus. So I appreciate him for doing so. So we have this rainbow day in 20 21 where we gathered together and we paint rainbows on rocks and we wanted to, go around the campus and give this rainbow rocks to faculties and students that want to have it and, pass along the message that, we are here and [00:38:00] we just want to be seen, we want to be loved.
And, let’s talk about it more on campus or, something. And we got this message from the vice president saying that you guys shouldn’t, place the rocks around the campus, whatever, and we were disappointed like you’re not even trying to get to know what is rainbow days about, but you already like, oh no rainbow rocks or inappropriate items on campus. So I have to say, okay, sure. We will do what you want. So I thought of the president because he’s native Hawaiian, and I have interacted on the campus before he became the president. And I really liked his vibe. And so in, if we say it in a informal way, it will be, yeah. He passed the vibe checks. So I messaged him on Facebook, like, [00:39:00] Hey Affirmation Hawaii is thinking of you and we want to give this to you as the items that present love. And we want to give this rock to you, and I explained the reason why we choose a rock, not like a tree or like a leaf or something. in Hawaiian cultural we have manner, which is energy in everything, especially rocks the the land, so we want to pick the rock because it has the energy within it. And we want to paint the rainbow as a transformation on the rock. In general, it means that we want to give this energy to transform the community into a more loving and caring community place for all of the students. So this is why we pick the rock and we want to give this to you. [00:40:00] And he said, okay, yeah, you can come and come by my office. And at that date he, I think he had like meeting something. So we waited for like an hour and he was really fast. He was, getting out of the office and we had to chase him like, a couple of buildings. He was really fast and he was like, here’s the rock that I messaged you about, please take it. And I also make a rainbow mask for you, but yeah, all of that effort to just to encourage the administrators, to use their power, their voices to emphasize our identity and on campus. And that if we hear from the authority like him, we will feel safer on campus. And he really did. He did post it on social media and he did get a lot of [00:41:00] flashback from the Christian community that have excluded love or whatsoever with the umbrella thing at BYU-Provo. Yeah. It was so bad, but they got used to it and he said what he said, and I’m really glad that he did.
But I really hope for the school in general that not only they say that they welcome the LGBT community, but I truly hope that they reformed the policies, the system that support, or advocate for the queer community more because Honor Code is it does nothing but create stress for the student, pressure for the student. It’s very forcing more than serving the student. So in the future, I hope that they create more support system, like LGBTQ chapter on [00:42:00] campus or something like that. Or they could have, emphasize title IX or the policy better to protect LGBTQ students. So that’s what I hope for them in the future. But last year I think it was good, however, it’s not enough.
Kate: Man, it’s powerful. It’s such a good story.
Hao: Thank you. You guys feel free to jump in because I would love to hear from you, Kate. You’re such an inspiration with your posts, you never stop advocating for the queer community. And I really appreciate you for that. And wow. On the day that I don’t feel enough energy to do it. And I was looking at you and you were thriving, and I was like, wow, she’s great.
Kate: Oh my gosh. This is what we should all have. We should all be able to build off of one another. We want to strengthen this community and I do again, think it’s very cool that we can do that for one another. When we live literally on [00:43:00] opposite sides of the world, I see your posts and they inspire me. Or if you’re having a bad day, you can come and talk with me or Colette or whoever is in this, we’ve built this. And Affirmation, I think has been a huge part of that for me. I was the chapter leader in LA. And so that’s how Hao and I met, we worked with Sarah Bowers, who is the regional leader, and then also Nathan Kitchen who’s the President of Affirmation is just so good at getting all of us together and working together.
Again, I want to put that out for anybody, wherever you are in the world, there is Affirmation. And so please reach out, if you need that support because this system, what we have is just crucial. I think it’s crucial for us to be building that community, not just in Hawaii, but where, whatever community we belong to and then build the [00:44:00] layers of that community.
But I did want to read, like you graduated from BYU and you have this amazing post. Is it okay if I read the posts that you had from last month, it’s written in first person. So I hope that’s okay. That I can just read it.
Hao: Yeah, definitely.
Kate: Perfect because I noticed this posts inspired a lot of people. There were a lot of people that like tapped into what you were saying. Hao posted on December 11th, 2021. So just a few weeks ago.
I’m not talking about the fact that I graduated with two bachelor’s degrees, three emphases, five different minors and three different professional certificates. Let that sink in for a second. I’m not talking about how I’m already on my way to get my master’s degree at U H. I’m talking about the fact that I made it till the end, while being openly, queer and advocating for other queer people in a harsh [00:45:00] religious environment. This would forever be the biggest achievement in my life than any academic degrees.
I literally have goosebumps reading this again.
I’m also talking about the fact that while my suit challenged the idea of ethnocentrism, centrism of the binary dressing code, forcing women to wear only skirt and dress to graduation. I personally don’t feel the need to do this because I know I am worthy of my degrees. I got the idea of rainbow stole from UH Manoa LGBTQ Center giving out rainbow stole for LGBTQ plus graduating students. Mahalo to people who normalize the existence of queer people on campus. For those who gave me eyes that are full of judgment, just know that I don’t care.
I love that. You’re awesome.
I’m going to a bigger world where diversity is truly [00:46:00] embraced and for that, I’d celebrate myself with peace and love. And then just these fantastic pictures where you’ve got your rainbow stole and everything like that is a really powerful post.
Hao: Thank you, Kate.
Kate: Thank you for writing it.
Colette: And thank you for your advocacy. I’m really impressed hearing of all you did, because I was actually a church employee, my entire professional career until partway through 2021. And in the last few years of that, I was really wrestling with my sexuality and it did not feel safe for me to be out. So even though I probably could have advocated and helped people, if I had been out in a different way, I didn’t feel safe. And so I really admire your ability to be able to do that because that’s not something that everyone can do. And we are so appreciative of those who can feel safe enough to be out, to advocate for others, while also recognizing that not everyone has that opportunity. And it’s important that you stay safe. If [00:47:00] you need to stay in the closet, we are not judging.
Hao: Definitely. A closet is not the ideal place to be in, but some of us, closet is the safest place, because if they get out of the closet, they will face first discrimination, second homelessness, third, a lot of prejudice. And the humanization that the people around them who have not learned how to love enough yet. So with all of these problems, just stay in the closet, if you don’t feel safe to come out. And just wait until you’re that boss lady make your own money. You can afford rent, you can make the whole coming out paused. Just make sure that until you can, you know, support yourself, the closet might be the best idea for you to be in. So I don’t encourage all or force someone to come [00:48:00] out. It’s just because I have the ability to be visible for someone who cannot, and it just makes the place less lonely, and even though I graduated in the spring 2021, but I went back to BYU-Hawaii to do the walk and I carry the rainbow stole with me on stage with rainbow mask and rainbow sticker on my cap and gown. I was not afraid at all. And yes, I did got Some discriminating eyes looking at me, but do I care? No, I do not because I’m not doing it for them. I’m doing for myself and the people who cannot be visible in the community.
Kate: It’s, what’s crazy to me. Is that list of degrees. First of all, the list of certifications and everything that you did, and that’s not the focus is a little bit like it seemed to me, the fact that you did it while being a queer [00:49:00] advocate with the target on your back and in the years, 2019 to 2021, especially going through a pandemic, trying to figure out how to do Affirmation while on Zoom, which was not easy, being a queer advocate while simultaneously the entire United States is facing a crisis of racism towards Asian American and Pacific Islander communities. Like the statistics are outrageous for those years. So not only are you doing this advocacy work for queer folks, that’s a period when your other communities are also going through really challenging times. I just cannot imagine like what the past two years have been like for you.
Hao: It took a lot of sanity, but we made it through. I have a good support system. They helped me through the hardest time when I feel imposter syndrome [00:50:00] on my advocacy that I’m not doing it enough. The support system that I have, here in Hawaii, those who helped me, got through the hardest time. So I want to give it to them to, especially my parents, even though they did not understand a lot, but the best thing they could ever give to me is to listen. And they were so worried that I was doing my advocacy on campus out in Lao, they were like, we’re not privilege, you know that, and I cannot imagine if you got expelled doing what you’re doing, doing what supposed to be love. And advocacy, I cannot imagine because we’re not privileged. Just remember it. They were so concerned for me, but I told them that I cannot stand looking at my friends, got discriminated, expelled from [00:51:00] school for being gay. And if I’m being, if I’m S I am silent, I am a part of the bigotry, right? Because the worst thing you can do is being silent in front of discrimination. That’s the worst thing you can do. So you’ve got to do something about it. Someone got to do something about it and it happened to be Affirmation Hawaii.
Kate: So we, I didn’t realize this, but we became chapter leaders about the same time, both in the Pacific region. And to hear you say that you had imposter syndrome from somebody who was looking at you and going, how do I be like Hao? like I thought that so many times that it’s, I can’t, I guess we’re all feeling that. We all go through that, that we all feel like we’re not doing enough or what more can we do because I definitely saw you as like a role model for how to do [00:52:00] Affirmation. I still do. I still think of you as role model of how to do Affirmation.
Hao: Kate. You’re the role model for me. I asked myself every day, how I can be like you. So we’re just like going back and forth, but
Kate: But I think it’s important for us to recognize and for everybody to recognize that we all feel this sense of imposter syndrome and that we all feel that maybe we’re not doing enough when we’re doing this as much as we can. Like what more could you have done in 2020 and 2021?
Hao: Right. Like I, pat myself on the shoulder going through this pandemic is a huge achievement and that’s good enough. Or just like waking up, getting out of bed is an achievement in the day. And I try to not to be on too hard on myself. And whatever I do, all we do is good enough.
Kate: It’s interesting to me that you were [00:53:00] going through 2020 as an Asian American in Hawaii because Hawaii has its own colonial imperialist past that is just different from the rest of the United States and newer than the United States. And I think that you were seeing this from a very interesting perspective that you were seeing like the Asian American experience and the Pacific Islander experience, groups that are often combined, the AAPI community. But you were seeing both from kind of two different perspectives.
Hao: Yeah. definitely. I am glad that we’re doing this intersection of erasure conversation, because I think when it comes to an Asian community, the Pacific Islanders not talking about enough, the south Asian community is not talked about enough. And it’s created model minority myth that Asian is just, like me black hair, I’m good at math whatsoever. And the class [00:54:00] of white privilege whatsoever in the country and it created so many problems and I was turning around my parents. Like why through all of the countries you pick America. Thank you. I’m just kidding. I’m really grateful for it. All the things that make me stronger when I’m here. And to learn more how to advocate for others, not on the LGBT spectrum, but also on the racial and other spectrums in the community. So I’m really grateful to have the knowledge and the tools to advocate for a lot of people. And we cannot change the world in just one day, but we can change the world we live in. So that’s what I hope for. And we did with Affirmation in that year. And I do hope that with my degree, I can have more knowledge [00:55:00] to advocate for other communities on the island, the indigenous people, the Asian community,
Kate: Yeah, I really appreciate what you just said because yeah, we can all be doing more in our own communities. That’s and it’s, and you’re showing that. I’ve met with Nathan Kitchen, the President of Affirmation recently. We’re trying to start a Eastern European Affirmation. And he said to me, and you know, what they’re doing in Hawaii is just crazy. I was like, I know what they’re doing in Hawaii is just really inspiring. I know. So yeah, you’re making strides in that. What you’re doing in your community is permeating throughout Affirmation, throughout the Mormon community. And so just by making those small changes in your community, it’s leading to these ripple effects.
Hao: Yes. We just doing whatever we is needed to be done and I wish I could have done even more. But like I said, [00:56:00] I hope to do the things that I could have done, to do this this year. And just like a little announcement that I will leave this leadership position to the Gen Z generation for them to, it’s their moment to thrive. And I just can’t wait to see the advocacy in their generation. And of course I’ll still be like around the island for advise and, whenever someone needed, I’m still here. But yeah, it’s been a year for Affirmation Hawaii. And even though I have this imposter symptom, I feel like, okay, that’s good enough. If it took some of my sanity, it’s good enough.
Kate: Yeah, for sure. And so you mentioned a term earlier that I also want to just highlight and pull out for a minute, and that is the model minority myth. And that it’s not just east Asians or Southeast Asians. And people, [00:57:00] listeners might not know what that is or what that looks like or what that feels like, but can you tell us how you’ve experienced the model minority myth?
Hao: Sure. The minor minority is a concept created by white privilege, seeing Asian in a very stereo types of people that is good at math. And they only see just Chinese, they don’t see any other representation. And what it does to the Asian community in general is the lack of support.
How I experienced it in my school is that my teacher thought, okay, she’s Asian. She can do math or, she’s good enough already. So I did not have the support that I need because they think that I’m good already, but just so you know, I am the Asian that cannot do math at all. That kinda breaks the [00:58:00] stereotype of that we are, like in the stem or doing specific kind of things that people do. And with the model minority, they like representation for all the south Asian. And if you look at it on Google or on the statistic, the south Indian woman got paid much less than the southeast Asian or like the north Asian people. And it’s very concerning. And the second thing it does in our nation it create hatred between people of color, right? Because what they do is, okay, the first class is white. The second class is Asian and they try to tell all other people of color that if they try their best to be more Asian, they would be successful in the society, but the choice is not, it’s just create hatred among like people of color.
And it’s not number one is white. Number two [00:59:00] is Asian. The fact that number one is white and every other race below it suffered the same. And then the third thing it does in the community that it create this. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the term bamboo ceiling. We always see yes, Asian in middle management level. But we never see Asian representation in like CEO or at the top management of the industry or the companies or organization because of the model minority myth believe that Asian cannot be the top leaders because the lack of communication, the lack of leadership style. They are shy people. They don’t talk much, but if you know Asian well, we’re not shy. We’re not quiet at all in our house. [01:00:00] Friends family, friends got a, a complaint from the neighbor because of how loud they are at home. But yeah, that is just model minority myth the society created for Asian.
And when you look at diversity, I want to mention BYU-Hawaii because, they all about diversity, but diversity is more about where you come from, your nationalities. Yes, they have that checked up. But it’s also about your gender identities, how you experience it in your culture, and other representation that needed to bring on the table.
And at BYU-Hawaii, they create an environment where everyone is the same. They’re straight, they’re religious. And it has been that way. And when you create a system like that, it’s not going to work. When you bring different representation on the table, of course, you’re going to have a [01:01:00] different ideas on how to do specific things, and it’s create a stronger community, a more diverse community where everyone see difference, recognize it you know? Like how I look at my African-American friend saying that I did not have your experience, but I see your struggles. I want to study your experience and I will try my best to play my part against racism against you and your ancestor that will help us a lot to see a different representation on the table. If they do diversity that way. We have people from 70 countries in the work at, in one place, but they fail to recognize or they fail to teach us the struggles that our representation in this country. Diversity is a thing that I learned in my master at the University of Hawaii. And I think [01:02:00] that is the basic thing for everything. And for everyone to learn how to love all the human beings who’s different. I started model minority, but I want to emphasize about diversity as well, that it will be a tool to fix this model minority through, education and policymaking at school institutions.
Kate: It makes sense that this is what you’re going into. It’s clearly that you’re passionate about it. It’s clear that you already have the frameworks on the ground and the experience of doing it. So I’m so excited to see where this takes you at the University of Hawaii.
Hao: Thank you, Kate. Thank you. And it’s just a side story that when I got elected to be the second president, I experienced this within our LGBTQ community about biphobia and transphobia. There were a few others in the community that wanted to lead the chapter. However first they [01:03:00] are afraid of calling out the wrongdoing of the church. They just want to be a good gay mascot for the church whatsoever, but they are afraid of calling out a wrong doing, but I was not, I called out, but I call in so that we can study and grow together is not, it’s not to dehumanize anything we just want to learn and how to be a better human But I can not stress enough the transphobia and bi-phobia within the LGBT community can also create harm for others too. And I think it’s great that, you’re gay or lesbian, but it’s your job to do the work. Advocate for other identities, such as, Non binary, intersex people. It is also your job to use your voice to advocate for them as well.
Kate: Oh, you’re the best. [01:04:00] I love that. I love that. Thank you.
Colette: Is there anything you wish we had asked about that we haven’t yet?
Hao: I think as I am leaving my leadership position to this gen Z new generation of leadership, I am just excited for them and the advocacy. One of the questions that I got in my exam in my first year master degree program, is that how to make an institution or a school system to be more diverse, I would say, Okay. What you see, What you see discrimination is a visible violence to LGBTQ community, but what you don’t see is two things that hidden underneath the iceberg is the policies and the culture. So we success in the culture that transformed the culture in Affirmation Hawaii’s so that people see queer people in a more positive way.
However, [01:05:00] Institution like BYU-Hawaii can change. They can reform their policies, especially Honor Code to be a tool to protect student, not to harm student and harm their mental health. And of course to have title nine to be emphasized more. So that LGBTQ people or people of color can have more protection. And the third one that for any institution is support. It’s very important to have the support and resources on campus, because if you do, your student is not suffering. And if you do not, your student have no agency to come. But it’s okay. Affirmation Hawaii is around, but it’s not our job to do it. It’s your job to take care of your students. Please do it. And there’s my last words for the church education system. Have a line between religion and education for the good [01:06:00] of the students.
Kate: Absolutely.
Hao: Yeah. And thank you so much, you guys, for having me on this podcast. It’s been such a fun experience. Good time talking to you, Kate and Colette it’s really nice to meet you and I really appreciate what you do, your work, your advocacy. If a young me seeing all of this work from yours, I will be much like happier, less alone I would feel. Yeah. So thank you.
Kate: Same. Back at you.
Colette: Yes. Thank you. We really appreciate you. and all your work.
Thanks for listening. We appreciate you joining us today. Please feel free to follow, rate and review. If you want to contact us, you can reach us at hello@calledtoqueer.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram @CalledToQueer. See you next time.